Erik Hanushek, Paul Peterson, and Ludger Woessmann take issue with David Berliner and Gene Glass’s view about how high levels of child poverty in the U.S. affect our students’ performance on international assessments. In the following post, David Berliner responds to their critique.
Criticism via Sleight of Hand
David C. Berliner
Hanushek, Peterson and Woessmann (2014) (HPW) criticize Berliner, Glass, and Associates (2014). They label Berliner et al. “apologists,” and as misleaders of the American people. But their critique of our work seems bizarre. They never address the issue we deal with. We talk about the role of income and poverty in national and international assessments. They do not. Here is what they do:
“To ascertain whether the challenges facing the United States are concentrated among the educationally disadvantaged, we identify for each state and country the proficiency rate of students from families with parents of high, moderate, and low levels of education.”
Their analysis suggests that the children of America’s better educated families do not do as well as the children of better educated parents in other countries. If true, that would certainly not make us happy. But it is an irrelevant criticism of our analysis which convincingly demonstrates that poverty, along with its sequelae and correlations, is the greatest barrier to high achievement test scores for U.S. students on both domestic and international tests. Theirs is criticism via sleight of hand—we talk “level of poverty” and the outcomes of assessments, they talk “level of parental education” and the outcomes of assessment.
Everyone knows that there is a relationship between educational level and income. But HPW blithely assume that the correlation between these two variables is quite high, when it is not. In fact the raw correlation between an individual’s educational level and that individual’s income actually is surprisingly low. In Arizona, for example, among employed individuals 25-55 years old, the correlations between wage income and education level are about .20 for workers at younger ages, the child-bearing ages. This correlation increases with age, but is still relatively weak, only about .40 (accounting for only 16% of variance) at the upper end of the age scale examined. One’s level of education and one’s level of income simply do not provide the same information, something often referred to as status inconsistency in the sociological literature.
To criticize us with their data set requires HPW to show two things. First, that the correlation between educational level of the parents of school children and income level of those parents is quite high in the U.S. Second, they must show that the relationships of parental education and parental income is about the same in all the OECD countries. They do not provide either of these two analyses. Nor could they, since it is highly unlikely that similar correlations are the case.
Moreover, HPW do not acknowledge that much recent data suggest that education and income are not highly correlated in the U.S. For example, we know that in 1970, only 1 in 100 taxi drivers and chauffeurs in the U.S. had a college degree. Today, 15 of 100 do. Highly educated taxi drivers are likely not to be able to afford to live in the areas where school poverty rates for families are below 10%. In those public schools, U.S. students are among the top scoring in the world. Even in the schools where about 10-25% of the families are in poverty, U.S. public school students compete remarkably well. The question is whether all those well-educated taxi drivers live in the areas served by those kinds of school? Probably not! Thus their children are unlikely to be getting as good an education as are the children whose parents, regardless of their educational level, can afford to live in those areas.
Educational achievement on domestic and international tests is related to where you live and with whom you go to school. The children of these well-educated taxi drivers are more likely living in schools attended by people of more modest means, and this is possibly a reason for the findings of HPW. But it is not just taxi drivers with college degrees that have grown in numbers. In 1970, only about 2 percent of firefighters had a college degree. Now 15 percent do. Are they sending their kids to the schools attended by richer Americans, or to schools that serve the working and middle classes?
About 1 in 4 bartenders has some sort of college degree. Are they high earners? If they have children, with whom would those children go to school? Our critics know as well as we do that who you go to school with is more important for your performance on tests than is your teacher, or any other influence. James Coleman made that clear fifty years ago and no credible refutation of this argument yet exists.
So if many of America’s highly educated people are not earning high salaries, and thus not sending their children to the schools attended by the children of the advantaged, guess what? They will not do as well as might be expected of highly educated people—which is the point made by HPW. So not only does their data not refute our argument, if our hypothesis about education and income in contemporary U.S. is credible, their data actually confirm ours! Parental income and their child’s school achievement are strongly related, perhaps even more so than is parental education level and their children’s school achievement. In modern America, parental income rather than parental education more often determines who your children go to school with.
Even more evidence suggests that the correlation between education and income (and therefore, the correlation between education and the neighborhood one lives in) is not as high as HPW suggest. More than a third of recent college graduates hold jobs that do not require a college degree. This underemployment or “mal-employment” rate appears to be over 36% for college-educated workers younger than 25. People don’t go to college to be a waiter or a bartender, but that is now a common outcome of their education. Nearly 8% of college graduates are working part-time, but would like full-time positions, and these highly educated people are not counted in the mal-employment rate of 36%.
Not surprisingly, hospitality and retail are the most common occupations of the mal-employed. Of the nearly 3 million recent college grads, 152,000 are working in retail sales and nearly 100,000 work as waiters, bartenders or in other food service posts. Another 80,000 serve as clerks or customer service representatives, and 60,000 work in construction or manual labor.
These are Americans of child-bearing age, and they will be sending their children to school now, or quite soon. Will they live in neighborhoods where less than 10% of the families served by the schools are in poverty? Or are these now and future parents more likely to live in neighborhoods where 25-50% of the families are in poverty? Those would be the neighborhoods and schools that serve the working and the middle classes, and the students in these schools score about the national or international average on most assessments. Not great, but certainly not bad. Furthermore, going to the suburbs is no escape: Recently, and for the first time, suburban poverty rates exceeded urban poverty rates. So these poor and modest-earning well-educated Americans, often with large debts from college, are likely to wait a long time before they can move to a neighborhood with a school that has less than 10% of its children living in poverty and thus a likely very high performing school.
As is clear, HPW switched the argument from poverty to education. Perhaps children of America’s highly educated parents are not doing as well as children of the highly educated in other countries. We did not study that issue, but we have doubts about their findings, given what we have presented above about the relationship between education and income and where children are likely to be brought up in the contemporary U.S. More important is that their argument is irrelevant to our argument. We are quite sure we are correct in stating that youth poverty is our biggest education problem (see also, Biddle (2014)). What follows is why we hold this belief.
On the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study [TIMSS] tests, on the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study [PIRLS] test, and on the Program for International Student Assessment [PISA] tests of reading, science and mathematics, public school students in five groups were assessed. One group attended schools where fewer than 10% of the families were in poverty, others attended schools where approximately 10-25% of the families were in poverty, or where 25-50%, 50-75% or over 75% of the families served by the school were in poverty. On each of these three international tests, U.S. public school students did terrific in the schools where poverty rates of families were under 10%, or even when poverty rates were between 10% and 25%. But we did not do well in schools where poverty rates were above 50%, and we did even worse on those tests in schools where poverty rates for families were in the 75-100% bracket.
Here is the recent TIMSS data for grades 4 and 8 by poverty of the families served by the school.
Although many nations in this analysis were not developed nations, the competition did include Singapore, Korea, Hong Kong, and many OECD countries. The data are clear. First, to the amazement of everyone, the U.S. mean score in mathematics was above the international average, a finding conveniently underreported in the U.S. But averages always hide trends in data. When U.S. scores are broken down by the poverty of the families served, as in this graph, we see that the higher the percent of poverty among the families served by the schools, the lower the score in math. The science assessment showed the same trend.
Less well known is that the two groups on the left constitute about 12 million students, and they handily beat the average score of Finland. Even the middle group beat Finland at both the 4th and 8th grade, and that means that about 50% of U.S. school children who are not greatly affected by poverty, about 25 million children, are doing as well as the nation whose scores other nations envy. But internationally high, or quite respectable test scores, are not the lot of those students attending schools with high rates of poverty. That is our simple point.
Let’s switch to PIRLS.
U.S. public school students, where poverty rates were low, the two bars on the left, outscored every other nation in the world, and there were more than 50 other countries and jurisdictions in this study. Underreported, once again, was that even our children in schools that serve the poorest families, the bar on the right, scored above the international average. The gap, however, between the children in schools that serve the wealthy and those that serve the poor is huge. That is our point. If we want better test scores in the U.S. we should probably stop blaming unions, tenure, the curriculum, teachers and administrators, and instead create programs to reduce poverty and the housing segregation that accompanies low earnings.
Now let’s go to PISA, the test that HPW use to argue that we do not have it right. Here are math scores for the five groups we focus on.
Even in math, often our weakest subject, those students in schools where poverty rarely is seen, the first bar in this graph, placed 6th in world—and they placed higher than Japan. The next group, schools with less than 25% of the children living in poverty families, placed 17th in world, well above most of the countries in OECD. But here is our national problem: The U.S. average score was low because the schools attended by children whose families are in poverty score poorly. Those in the schools most heavily affected by poverty may not have the mathematics skills needed to compete in the market. But other U.S. children certainly do, and they are predominantly those attending schools low in family poverty.
Here are science scores.
The first bar in this graph displays PISA science scores for students in schools with under 10% of their classmates living in families that experience poverty. They were beaten by only one country, Shanghai, which as we know is not a country but a city. And it is a city with the highest rate of college graduates in China. Apparently it also does not test the children of its illegal immigrants (those from rural areas living in Shanghai illegally: Their number may approach 200,000). The second bar, representing students in schools where under 25% of the students are from families in poverty tied for 8th in the world. Not too shabby a performance for about 12 million American public school students. But once again the trend is clear. Children in schools high in poverty do not do well. The difference between the schools serving the wealthy and the poor is over one standard deviation.
Here is the reading data. The trend is clear once again.
Reading is an area of US strength, as PIRLS revealed. We see that again in PISA. US students in schools where under 10% of the families served are in poverty placed 2nd in the world. In the group where under 25% of the students were in poverty the students placed 6th in the world, tied with Finland. So, again, around 12 million of our student’s did great. And if we assess the performance of students represented by the third bar, the one showing students in schools with 25-50% of the families served in poverty, they also did well. They came in 10th. So approximately half of all US students, about 25 million of them, are doing pretty good, but that is not true for the other half of our school population—those attending schools where over 50% of the students come from families that are eligible for free and reduced lunch, our marker of family poverty.
We conclude that in contemporary America parental income, not parental education buys neighborhood, and neighborhood plays a big role in determining the composition of the class ones child is in, the composition of the cohort at the grade level one’s child is in, and the characteristics of the community in which one’s child goes to school. If there is not a very strong correlation between parental education and parental income, or more to the point, between parental education and where you can afford to live, HPW are wrong in both their interpretation of their own data, and their criticism of us. But we would like to add one more criticism of HPW, namely, that reliance on PISA and other international assessments to draw conclusions about characteristics of the U.S. system of education is foolish, even though we challenged their interpretations of our work by using those same questionable tests. The remarkably insightful Chinese born scholar Yong Zhao has a book coming out soon (Zhou, 2014). In it he makes it quite clear that PISA, in particular, and for international tests in general, it is impossible to draw valid conclusions about the strengths and weaknesses of national systems of education. Zhao (and many others) would caution, and we would agree, that HPW are on extremely shaky ground when they use PISA data to do so.
References
Berliner, D. C., Glass, G. V and Associates. (2014). Fifty myths and lies that
threaten America’s public schools. New York: Teachers College Press.
Biddle, B. J. (2014). The unacknowledged disaster: Youth poverty and
educational failure in America. Boston. MA: Sense Publishers.
Hanushek, E. A., Peterson, P. E., & Woessmann, L. (2014). Not just the
problems of other people’s children: U.S. Student Performance in Global
Perspective. Harvard University, Program on Education Policy and Governance & Education Next, PEPG Report No. 14-01, May 2014.
Zhao, Y. (2014). Who’s afraid of the big bad dragon? Why China has the best
(and worst) education system in the world. San Francisco, CA: Jossey-
Bass.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see these three economists connected with some right wing think tank or pro-reform (pro-eugenics) corporate sponsorship.
People don’t need fancy graphs, charts and formulas to understand that poor living
conditions are going to negatively impact a child’s interaction with academics.
Fordham Institute (which is NOT Fordham University) also the PEPG group…. I think jan resseger and deutsch have written about these groups. Gate$ gives money to Fordham Institute to put out the newsletters and articles at Education Next.
Communist Teacher,
Sourcewatch links Hanushek to the American Enterprise Institute as an Academic Advisor.
Huffington Post and other media report the Reinhart,of the infamous austerity paper by Rogoff-Reinhart, is married to a researcher at AEI. Prior to that, Reinhart was at Pete Peterson’s tank.
An internet search of “Hanushek Sourcewatch” describes AEI.
Hanushek is affiliated with the right wing Hoover Institution. If you read his early publications, you can see how he has been on a campaign to implement a version of VAM to identify and get rid of bad teachers dating back to the 70s:
http://hanushek.stanford.edu/publications/academic
thanks Linda,
The problem is capitalism.
Come on now. As her Koppness, Wendy “knows” and the Rheeject “knows” all it takes is the best of the best from Harvard, Princeton, Yale, 5 weeks of summer school to get all that teaching stuff learnt, and voila – they can even teach a child who speaks a different language how to full in the correct bubbles. Now THAT is fine educatin~!
My dad grew up in rural WV in the 1930s. He was dirt poor. But they had food from the garden, valued education, and wanted to get out of poverty. Oddly, my grandpa had been a teacher for 3 years. But he took a different job to make more money, but was still poor. My dad was at the top of his high school class in 1939 and graduated when he was 16. He began working when he was 16, leaving home to bring money back. In those days poverty was different, society was different, and he had a chance to succeed in life.
That was during the depression and many were poor. I am not sure that without WWII many people would have ever been able to break the cycle of poverty.
Today, poverty is deeper and the distance to climb out, as well as the expense of survival is hard to overcome. There is a cycle that is hard to beat. Mere handouts and food aren’t enough. As long as we have a enough politicians who are unwilling to have empathy for those in need, we won’t pull those in need out of a life they don’t want but have to learn to survive with.
Here is an interesting paper about intergenerational income mobility and geography in the United States. From the abstract:
“We use administrative records on the incomes of more than 40 million children and their parents to describe three features of intergenerational mobility in the United States. First, we characterize the joint distribution of parent and child income at the national level. The conditional expectation of child income given parent income is linear in percentile ranks. On average, a 10 percentile increase in parent income is associated with a 3.4 percentile increase in a child’s income. Second, intergenerational mobility varies substantially across areas within the U.S. For example, the probability that a child reaches the top quintile of the national income distribution starting from a family in the bottom quintile is 4.4% in Charlotte but 12.9% in San Jose. Third, we explore the factors correlated with upward mobility. High mobility areas have (1) less residential segregation, (2) less income inequality, (3) better primary schools, (4) greater social capital, and (5) greater family stability. While our descriptive analysis does not identify the causal mechanisms that determine upward mobility, the publicly available statistics on intergenerational mobility developed here can facilitate research on such mechanisms.
The paper: http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/mobility_geo.pdf
thank you for the article; I will follow up by reading it in its entirety. By the way, teaching economist , are you one of the “we” the 3 authors cited? or you are just citing from the “royal we of the authors” in the article/abstract? Just curious…. Did you have any particular observations as I read the article that I could look for inferences? thanks.
Jeanhaverhill,
I am not one of the authors. That “we” is part of the direct quote from the paper abstract.
I posted the link because poster deb’s comment comparing intergenerational income mobility in her father’ time and today. Certainly some of her observations are consistent with the paper: if everyone is poor (as she said about her father’s time), there was a relatively equal income distribution and that correlates with higher income mobility in the paper.
teaching economist: I kind of knew you weren’t and it was just my “tongue in cheek” I meant it more in good humor than in any critical way…. I understand your purpose in writing and thought it was an excellent response.
jeanhaverhill@aol.com
jeanhaverhill,
I am finding that I need to explain the relevance of my posts in some detail.
but isn’t that what good discussions are about? explaining and describing rather than reverting to name calling or platitudes, or slogans, or acting out the way politicians do all the time in grandstanding and posing for cameras with sound bites? I think the American people are capable of the kinds of debates/discussions that we need to hold … I just want to be there when the rules are made (the policies for educational programs) and when the priorities are set in the budget ….. I still rely on the Galbraith “economics and the public purpose” where a lot of the modern writers take the economics as separate and people like M. Podgursky write articles at Education Next about the “principal’s pension payoff”…..
When my nephew went to study at the London School of Economics our board member where I worked said “Oh, no ; he will be coming home so liberal”…… and I just say well then that’s good because I want the liberal values maintained especially when it comes to health and education . I can’t separate economics out and treat it separately as a “truth science”…. in particular to schools, they will close the public schools because they are “failing” , they will issue coupons to students, and then in two or 3 years they will stop the coupons because it is “welfare”…. So no matter what kinds of metrics are available it is how they are applied to the decisions about what is important…. I know I’m rambling here; my boss used to bang the table and say “don’t think like a teacher , think like a business man”….
jeanhaverhill@aol.com
Jean, Take anything by Chetty et al. with large handfuls of salt. He is the economist famous for promoting the junk science of VAM on which the Vergara decision to deny CA teachers due process rights was based. He’s also noted for proclaiming that a good 4th grade teacher can increase the lifetime earnings of a classroom by about $250K –which actually amounts to about $5 per student per week over the course of a 40 year career (depending on class size).
Try something like this from the Economic Policy Institute instead:
“The Increasingly Unequal States of America: Income Inequality by State, 1917 to 2011”
http://www.epi.org/publication/unequal-states/
Or search EPI for reports on income mobility
Victorino,
Chetty is actually best known for being an extremely good econometrician, and most of his work concerns taxes. Exactly 3 of his 21 published articles in peer reviewed journals concerns education. Here is a link to his vita: http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/cv.pdf
Teachers who care about science, truth and the rights of teachers do not promote Chetty. He is an opportunist who is angling to get the Nobel prize based on his voodoo VAM work in education.
Cares,
Actually most of his work has focused on taxes. Only 3 of his 21 peer reviewed articles concern education.
Stop assuming that that she is a dolt who did not read it the first time you wrote Chetty only published 3 of 21 articles on education. Clearly, his limited experience in education did not put a damper on Chetty’s prediction of a major reward for the foray:
“Adler received an email from Chetty that informed him that the study had been accepted for publication by the American Economic Review (AER). (Chetty also suggested that a Nobel Prize will likely follow!)”
https://dianeravitch.net/2014/07/28/columbia-economist-chetty-et-al-are-wrong-about-vam/
Other spaces,
I made no assumptions about Victorino or Cares About Kids being a dolt or their gender. I responded to each appropriately.
Chetty is one of the youngest professors ever tenured at Harvard (tenured at 29 in 2008, it long predates his work on VAT), and he was awarded the MacArther foundation genus grant because of his work as a “public economist, elucidating key policy issues of our time in theoretical and empirical studies that refine our understanding of the impact of public finance on economic activity.” Public finance is about taxes. The citation for his John Bates Clark Award can be found here (http://www.aeaweb.org/honors_awards/bios/Raj_Chetty.php) where his work on education is mentioned along with the work he is actually most known for “Salience and Taxation: Theory and Evidence” . In that paper he argued that conventional economic theory about tax incidence, based on relative elasticities of supply and demand curves are wrong and that the consumer pays a far higher share of sales taxes than the producer of a good.
Much of the detriment to the field of education has come from Harvard, including that perhaps root cause of the downfall of urban schools which advocates having far larger schools so as to increase the span of control.
That may have done more harm to upward mobility than did NCLB, the SAT I, and the
US News & World Reports rankings of undergraduate colleges combines.
This is not to disparage the one individual, whom I know nothing of. Those who have been deemed MacArthur Fellows have each earned my admiration and respect.
I eagerly await the day that the Hobart Shakespeareans Rafe Esquith is so recognized.
It was not appropriate to repeat what you wrote when Cares already responded to it. Defending a tenured teacher who is responsible for stripping other teachers of tenure and then expecting a major award for doing so is lower than the lowest for someone who is also a teacher.
Other Spaces,
I am pointing out that while the VAM study looms large in blogs like this one, it is a relatively minor part of Chetty’s CV, playing no role in his receiving tenure at Harvard at 29, playing no role in his receiving a MacArther “genius” grant, and mentioned only in passing in the citation for the John Bates Clark award. If he is awarded the Nobel prize, it will be as an applied microeconomist, and the award will have little to do with VAM.
I am curious if you have read his other piece on education, “HOW DOES YOUR KINDERGARTEN CLASSROOM AFFECT YOUR EARNINGS? EVIDENCE FROM PROJECT STAR” . It shows that small kindergarten classes have identifiable positive impacts on students after they graduate from high school, that having more experienced teachers in kindergarten have identifiable positive impacts on students after they graduate from high school, and that the having classes with higher achieving students have identifiable positive impacts on students after they graduate from high school.
Of course you might think that teacher experience and class size does not matter and so dismiss Chetty’s research.
Here is a link to the working paper: http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/STAR.pdf
TE, Chetty’s VAM study was featured on page 1of the NY Times (without benefit of peer review), on the PBS Newshour, and mentioned by President Obama in his State of the Union address a few weeks later, and you say it wasn’t all that important?
How many of your studies have gotten this hype treatment?
Dr. Ravitch,
I teach and do not write papers.
Chetty’s study of intergenerational income mobility was also featured on the front page of the New York Times and discussed on PBS and other media without benefit of peer review (all three works are forthcoming in peer reviewed journals). Is the paper on intergenerational income mobility the one that will be the important citation?
I am curious about your opinion of Chetty’s other paper on education showing a link between small class size, teacher experience, and strong peers in kindergarten and positive post high school outcomes. Is that junk science?
Weren’t you imploring others to ignore TE (something about “don’t feed the beast”) just the other day?
Unlike TE, I look out for and defend innocent teachers, as well as tenure and academic freedom BECAUSE I am a teacher who has never had those rights myself. But you are right. No more feeding frenzies for pirañas. I’m outta here.
Excuse me, Diane, but you need to stop insulting TE.
Many of TE’s studies have been published in Highlights Magazine and Nickoledeon Kids.
Give him a chance. He has merit. Just ask the muppets on Sesame Street . . . . .
Robert,
Once again I suggest that you take on the argument rather than trying to insult the person presenting the argument.
Perhaps you can explain why Chetty’s results that small kindergarten classes and experienced kindergarten teachers provide lasting benefits to kindergarten students is “junk science”.
The real question that we should be asking is
” Can the US compete in a highly competitive global economy with the educational infrastructure that we currently have in place?”
In the discussion offered in the main piece, heavy reliance is place upon the holding of a degree, as opposed to being “educated”.
Would you consider the late Peter Jennings or the late Steve Jobs to be educated? Neither they nor Bill Gates nor Sean Connery hold degrees.
Probably the best study of the shortcomings of “degrees” is in the 1998 white paper by
Hudson Institute Director of Research Edwin S. Rubinstein “The College Payoff Illusion.”
http://web1.calbaptist.edu/dskubik/college.htm
While the US has some 3,000 colleges that offer undergraduate schooling, there are legitimate questions that exist for the population of colleges excluded from the “Fiske Guide to the Best Colleges”, which profiles some 300 colleges that have great student outcomes.
http://www.fiskeguide.com/
As outlined in the Brookings study The Hamilton Project, Hoxby and Axley reflected on our “Hidden Supply of High Achieving, Low Income Students” we have a tremendous waste of human capital resources in the US with our abysmal access allowed to low income students to those colleges with the best resources to develop their substantial potential.
This may be the very area which allows foreign countries to surpass the US in competitiveness, as we are failing to properly educate those other than the affluent in our country.
If you are content to have public policy set by the likes of Paris Hilton, that is your opinion. I suggest that it is absolutely critical that we find effective and pragmatic means of fulling developing the substantial potential of those in the “high achieving, low income”
category.
Correcting the failure of Pell Grant authorizing legislation to index amounts is vital and essential to achieving this goal.
To see vivid scientific evidence that low income students can be developed into highly effective and productive members of society, examine the quarter century track record of the amazing Hobart Shakespeareans of Rafe Esquith, comprised entirely of free meal qualified students.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp dyn/content/article/2007/01/16/AR2007011600502.html
These students come from dire poverty area with broken homes that are non-English speaking at home. The expectation of graduation from Hobart Elementary is 30%.
In this sordid environment, Rafe’s students are at The University of Chicago School of Medicine, hold Yale Law and Cornell Chemical Engineering Master’s degrees amid other success stories.
Our problems are not with the students, they are with the obsolete and obtuse protocols that we force our teachers to comply with that have little bearing to success in college or in the workplace.
We could just keep with the path that we are on, not making process improvements in our schools.
To accept that complacency, we would have to accept that the US will soon slide into second or even third tier of competitiveness in the global economy.
Our current processes result in far too many college degree holders being incapable of holding jobs in other than hierarchical organizations thus not requiring creativity and continuous improvement.
Folding clothes in a box box retail store and driving a taxi are all that too many can secure.
That is a tremendous waste of our country’s human capital resources.
We can do better! Too many other countries are already doing so.
This makes a lot of sense. I am college educated/spouse not. We live in a blue collar community and raised 4 children. Two, went to neighborhood pub schools and both graduated from HS. One ended up working at Johns Hopkins Applied Science Lab after excellent military training program, and the other in a call center for airlines. Our third child, got into the wrong company and we ended up sending him to military school for HS. He is doing well. And the 4th child, ended up in parochial school from K-12, graduated college and is now in business for self. So this makes perfect sense to me. The kids learn from each other, the discipline in the classroom matters and the expertise of teachers guide and inspire.
“. . . neighborhood pub schools. . . ”
Did they learn how play 01 games and drink Guinness??
CarmanK,
I am glad you were able to choose schools that best fit the individual needs of your children.
Very impt piece by Berliner et. al., impt to patiently read it and use it to confirm the strongest point we public advocates have in fighting this horrendous school war–that deep poverty and vast income inequality are the real problems with educational outcomes, not ineffective teachers or wayward students or uninvolved parents.
The school war is also a class and race war, because the looting of the public sector enriches the private sector while also disproportionately injuring kids of color who are more likely to be poor. The other side denies the impact of deep child poverty, dismisses the role of worsening economic inequality, erases family income as the most impt factor in a child’s school outcome, so our job is to keep these items on the table, in the widest circulation possible, challenge every official, pundit, reform leader, and billionaire with the facts.
quote: “The school war is also a class and race war, because the looting of the public sector enriches the private sector while also disproportionately injuring kids of color who are more likely to be poor. ” it seems to me this is intentional today whereas when i was growing up it was more “random”???? It took 3 generations in my family to rise from poverty; I point to the fact that my grandmother had 14 pregnancies but only 5 live births and two of the infants that died at birth were recorded as “malnutrition”. I know student achievement is often correlated with the mother’s levels of education and the mother’s education might (at least back then) been dependent upon the number of children…. as families got smaller and children were better cared for (in terms of health and nutrition) perhaps the IQ scores rose like 0.08% or something ???? so that over generations there is a cumulative “lift”? But I can’t see today how the youngest have the same level of chance or opportunity that I feel I personally enjoyed….
“. . . that reliance on PISA and other international assessments [actually any standardized assessment] to draw conclusions about characteristics of the U.S. system of education is foolish. . . ”
Not only foolish but also as Wilson puts it “vain and illusory” as these educational malpractices, as proven by Wilson, are SO RIFE WITH ERROR that renders them COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL and INVALID and ANY USAGE of the results UNETHICAL.
To understand why, read and comprehend Wilson’s never refutted nor rebutted “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700
Brief outline of Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” and some comments of mine. (updated 6/24/13 per Wilson email)
1. A description of a quality can at best only be partially quantified. Quantity is almost always a very small aspect of quality. It is illogical to judge/assess a whole category only by a part of the whole. The assessment is, by definition, lacking in the sense that “assessments are always of multidimensional qualities. To quantify them as unidimensional quantities (numbers or grades) is to perpetuate a fundamental logical error” (per Wilson). The teaching and learning process falls in the logical realm of aesthetics/qualities of human interactions. In attempting to quantify educational standards and standardized testing the descriptive information about said interactions is inadequate, insufficient and inferior to the point of invalidity and unacceptability.
2. A major epistemological mistake is that we attach, with great importance, the “score” of the student, not only onto the student but also, by extension, the teacher, school and district. Any description of a testing event is only a description of an interaction, that of the student and the testing device at a given time and place. The only correct logical thing that we can attempt to do is to describe that interaction (how accurately or not is a whole other story). That description cannot, by logical thought, be “assigned/attached” to the student as it cannot be a description of the student but the interaction. And this error is probably one of the most egregious “errors” that occur with standardized testing (and even the “grading” of students by a teacher).
3. Wilson identifies four “frames of reference” each with distinct assumptions (epistemological basis) about the assessment process from which the “assessor” views the interactions of the teaching and learning process: the Judge (think college professor who “knows” the students capabilities and grades them accordingly), the General Frame-think standardized testing that claims to have a “scientific” basis, the Specific Frame-think of learning by objective like computer based learning, getting a correct answer before moving on to the next screen, and the Responsive Frame-think of an apprenticeship in a trade or a medical residency program where the learner interacts with the “teacher” with constant feedback. Each category has its own sources of error and more error in the process is caused when the assessor confuses and conflates the categories.
4. Wilson elucidates the notion of “error”: “Error is predicated on a notion of perfection; to allocate error is to imply what is without error; to know error it is necessary to determine what is true. And what is true is determined by what we define as true, theoretically by the assumptions of our epistemology, practically by the events and non-events, the discourses and silences, the world of surfaces and their interactions and interpretations; in short, the practices that permeate the field. . . Error is the uncertainty dimension of the statement; error is the band within which chaos reigns, in which anything can happen. Error comprises all of those eventful circumstances which make the assessment statement less than perfectly precise, the measure less than perfectly accurate, the rank order less than perfectly stable, the standard and its measurement less than absolute, and the communication of its truth less than impeccable.”
In other word all the logical errors involved in the process render any conclusions invalid.
5. The test makers/psychometricians, through all sorts of mathematical machinations attempt to “prove” that these tests (based on standards) are valid-errorless or supposedly at least with minimal error [they aren’t]. Wilson turns the concept of validity on its head and focuses on just how invalid the machinations and the test and results are. He is an advocate for the test taker not the test maker. In doing so he identifies thirteen sources of “error”, any one of which renders the test making/giving/disseminating of results invalid. And a basic logical premise is that once something is shown to be invalid it is just that, invalid, and no amount of “fudging” by the psychometricians/test makers can alleviate that invalidity.
6. Having shown the invalidity, and therefore the unreliability, of the whole process Wilson concludes, rightly so, that any result/information gleaned from the process is “vain and illusory”. In other words start with an invalidity, end with an invalidity (except by sheer chance every once in a while, like a blind and anosmic squirrel who finds the occasional acorn, a result may be “true”) or to put in more mundane terms crap in-crap out.
7. And so what does this all mean? I’ll let Wilson have the second to last word: “So what does a test measure in our world? It measures what the person with the power to pay for the test says it measures. And the person who sets the test will name the test what the person who pays for the test wants the test to be named.”
In other words it attempts to measure “’something’ and we can specify some of the ‘errors’ in that ‘something’ but still don’t know [precisely] what the ‘something’ is.” The whole process harms many students as the social rewards for some are not available to others who “don’t make the grade (sic)” Should American public education have the function of sorting and separating students so that some may receive greater benefits than others, especially considering that the sorting and separating devices, educational standards and standardized testing, are so flawed not only in concept but in execution?
My answer is NO!!!!!
One final note with Wilson channeling Foucault and his concept of subjectivization:
“So the mark [grade/test score] becomes part of the story about yourself and with sufficient repetitions becomes true: true because those who know, those in authority, say it is true; true because the society in which you live legitimates this authority; true because your cultural habitus makes it difficult for you to perceive, conceive and integrate those aspects of your experience that contradict the story; true because in acting out your story, which now includes the mark and its meaning, the social truth that created it is confirmed; true because if your mark is high you are consistently rewarded, so that your voice becomes a voice of authority in the power-knowledge discourses that reproduce the structure that helped to produce you; true because if your mark is low your voice becomes muted and confirms your lower position in the social hierarchy; true finally because that success or failure confirms that mark that implicitly predicted the now self evident consequences. And so the circle is complete.”
In other words students “internalize” what those “marks” (grades/test scores) mean, and since the vast majority of the students have not developed the mental skills to counteract what the “authorities” say, they accept as “natural and normal” that “story/description” of them. Although paradoxical in a sense, the “I’m an “A” student” is almost as harmful as “I’m an ‘F’ student” in hindering students becoming independent, critical and free thinkers. And having independent, critical and free thinkers is a threat to the current socio-economic structure of society.
While the politicians are spending hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts to the testing companies who conduct the bubble tests, all seem to miss the critical issue:
Is the student capable of writing a concise and persuasive one page paper upon arriving at college?
All that money spent on bubble testing infrastructure was as wasted as is the $65 million football stadia which seem to captivate the media.
You say tomato; I say potato.
As a retired research chemist by training and educational instructor( for over 40 years) and researcher by passion many of the arguments and research related to K-12 student performance studies and discussions are misleading from a research point of view. Two major research related misunderstanding must be addressed. (1) Statistical correlations in education and other situations are measures of reliability- reproducibility comparisons and have no necessarily relationship to validity to” cause and effect” or what student’s know. For example in science, a balance that is not validated may measure a quantity to a 0.0001 gram, but could be off by a gram. Therefore, an object being measured has excellent reliability and reproducibility but poor validity. In other words, there is no necessarily cause and effect relationship between reliability and validity. Therefore there can be no necessarily VALID relationship between student achievement and social-economic, poverty, ethnic, gender, and other conditions. However, the reliability (reproducibility)relationship among variables such as student achievement, family income, poverty rate ,etc. may be very strong, but it is still not a VALID( relates cause and effect) measure. As long as the cause and effect part(validity) of the argument is not included in the author’s discussion, the reliability portion( reproducibility) is correct among variables. Unfortunately, the authors are confusing and exchanging validity and reliability measures, that have no necessarily relationship to each other, as each are different measures by definition!
(2) Secondly, even the author’s application of “ correlation” is flawed in their discussions. The term correlation is number sensitive, so that unless the numbers being compared and evaluated(correlated) are normalized, the correlation values presented may be invalid. In other words, the correlations discussed must be converted into a forms such as R(test) values that are independent of number of cases, so that the reliability comparisons are truly consistent and accurate..
The researcher has many educational discussions based upon class room and other research. Pick a topic and I will most likely have completed research on it.
I am not selling anything but a change in thinking, that must occur before a change in behaviors and practices will occur. Eric Kangas ekangas@juno.com
One of the root causes of the lack of progress in the US academic community is its eagerness to quantify management processes which later prove to have absolutely no validity.
I suggest that the high stakes standardized testing process is squarely in the center of that allegation. That process is highly scalable, however. It is just meaningless, except to the shareholders of Pearson, who enjoy the boost in earnings from massive contracts like the bozos in Texas who got sold the half billion dollar contract for Pearson standardized test services.
Unfortunately, the confusion of correlation and causation seems to be common. Sometimes it seems to be done unknowingly; other times it seems to be done purposefully.
Btw, when I’ve taught about validity and reliability, I’ve sometimes used a scale as an example. If I calibrate my scale to measure my weight 20 pounds lighter, it isn’t a valid measurement of my weight. But it will be a reliable measure since it will consistently weigh me incorrectly at 20 pounds lighter.
Interestingly and sadly enough, if we find a rise of lower income people with higher levels of education in the USA, such as taxi drivers, then what this suggests are two things:
1) The job market has changed due to globalization and IT, but that our policies here do not, for the most part, protect job and job creation here on our own soil as corporations import cheaper eduated workers, outsource work abroad, and are increasingly incorporating abroad to avoid paying domestic taxes.
2) Whatever economies that are being generated here on our own soil are increasingly arranged such that money no longer trickles down from the top . . . . Whether it be the top of the private sector or government. It is clearly getting stuck, and a smaller number of choice people are controlling, owning, accumulating, and growing the monies and wealth being distributed.
Until we redistribute wealth and establish policies similar to France, Germany, and Scandnavia, we will will end up like banana repbulics like Honduras, Columbia, and Brazil (where I refer to their power structures, not their everyday, ordinary citizenry!).
Is that what most people want here?
Picketty predicted revolution. Not in my lifetime, I think, but inevitable . . . .
As the population becomes more educated, there must be a rise in the education level of low income jobs. If everyone in the United States had a college degree, every job, no matter how well or poorly paid, would be done by someone with a college degree.
On the subject of “our own soil”, we can all contact Walgreens, either our local store or on-line, which I have done. Financial firms that own 5% of the Walgreens’ stock want the company to move, on paper, to Switzerland to avoid taxes. The company expects to continue to make 1/4 of their revenue from U.S. tax dollars in the form of Medicare and Medicaid payments. Tell them, “No”.
Linda,
If you are the Linda from Connecticut, here is a link that shows where your pension funds are invested: http://www.ott.ct.gov/pensiondocs/fundperf/FundPerformance053114.pdf
If you are not from Connecticut I would be surprised if your pension funds were invested very differently. It is difficult to average 8% a year (you might notice that Connecticut missed it over the last 10 year period, averaging 7.07%) and I suspect impossible to do it without investing in companies that try to minimize their tax payments and companies that are located outside of the United States.
If you are a direct or indirect Walgreens shareholder and are contacting the CEO’s office on governance, you might want to mention that the national news covered one store in Mesquite, Texas from which the store manager ejected a veteran of the Iraqi war because he brought his service dog into the Walgreen Drug Store rather than leaving the service dog out in the hot car.
This action violates federal law.
this is the Hanushek, Peterson et al article at Education Next
http://educationnext.org/us-students-educated-families-lag-international-tests/
interesting David Berliner gets called “apologist”…. Education Next (prepared from Fordham Institute) calls us “marriage wreckers”, Ravitch zombies, and acolytes…. maybe we are coming up in the world?????
What our economy really needs are more highly skilled welders.
Shortages in this skilled trade area are actually precluding the establishment of major manufacturing operations.
Yours is a simplistic answer. Welders often come up, through the ranks of plumbers, a skilled group that suffered and suffers a great deal of unemployment because of the recession.
It might be informative for you to learn that my friend Jimmie Dale is pulling his hair out over his difficulty in finding highly qualified plumbers with top interpersonal skills to hire at $100,000 per year in earnings, starting immediately, if they were only available.
“The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.”
John W. Gardner, Secretary of Health Education and Welfare under JFK and author of “Excellence.”
dormand,
I appreciate your comments. Is the plumber shortage, a geographical anomaly? I’m familiar with the feast and famine in the Michigan trades. Many of the workers travel out-of-state for industrial work but, it doesn’t provide full employment.
Top interpersonal skills?
Linda has described the “traveling out of state” for work….and I think it relates to the issue that there is really not a STEM shortage….
I need to understand the mobility and the increased difficulty with the 2008 Great Recession. At one time migrant farm workers walked by my house daily to go and pick crops ….. Today, elderly who have lost their savings (2008) now live in RVs and travel to find work (cf. Harper’s article)…. I wish Studs Terkel were here to gather some of these impressions…. he described “more women and children on the streets since the Great Depression” and we have to examine that…. Are we asking the people of Detroit and Newark to “self deport” by closing the schools and shutting off the water? You can guarantee that with Climate Change following the worldwide Great Recession that there will be more refugees on all the borders in every nation and on every continent. Are we purposely creating more “traveling refugees” … there was a song in the 60s “Woman is the Niggah of the world” and I know that is pejorative but it can also be used as a teaching tool to illustrate what the concept is …. But then I have to go back to Mark Twain and Huck and Jim to illustrate (if I stay in the realm of Mark Twain and Studs Terkel, I am in safer territory).. ….
jeanhaverhill@aol.com
And robotics is not preventing job growth for manufacturing?
Mr. Berliner is using the wrong data set to see how our schools are faring. The free and reduced price lunch data is a US-only indicator; we have no way of comparing average scores from low-poverty schools (using this metric) to low-poverty schools in Japan (or Korea or Canada or anywhere), since we are the only ones who collect the data this way.
So the only legitimate way to compare how our affluent kids are doing compared to affluent kids worldwide (an “apples-to-apples” comparison) is to use average scores based on the SES of the actual students who took the PISA (data that the OECD collects). You can see more about how we fare on this (much more credible) basis here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/pisa-wealth_n_4641669.html.
“Methodological problems have plagued international test-score comparisons from the time they began 50 years ago. Since then the number and type of countries and other jurisdictions participating in the comparisons have increased, as have the methodological problems. At the same time, the results of the international comparisons have had an increasing impact on education policies throughout the world, despite the fact that the policy implications drawn from the comparisons are based on seriously flawed data. The commentary describes the intractable problems inherent in making valid comparisons of student achievement across countries and recommends an approach to reformulating the research.”
From the abstract of Iris Rotberg’s “Tenuous Findings, Tenuous Policies,” Teachers College Record, May 19, 2014
http://blog.hmleague.org/tenuous-findings-tenuous-policies/
That chart is actually confirmation that poor students score lower than high income students in all countries. The comparisons across countries is news. Ever since international tests were first administered in the mid 60s, according to Ravitch:
“The U.S. has NEVER been first in the world, nor even near the top, on international tests.
Over the past half century, our students have typically scored at or near the median, or even in the bottom quartile.”
https://dianeravitch.net/2013/12/03/my-view-of-the-pisa-scores/
That never put our country at risk before and I see no difference now, despite all the Henny Penny “the sky is falling” claims by neo-liberal “reformers” who want to privatize public education so that corporations and entrepreneurs can raid the public coffers. “Reformers” should look closely at how badly privatization of public education worked out for Chile and Sweden before pushing it on America.
Correction: That should have been “The comparisons across countries is NOT news.”
Here’s another interesting take on poverty and international comparisons of performance on standardized tests: http://shankerblog.org/?p=10262#more-10262
See also
“How Does PISA Put the World at Risk (Part 4): Misleading the World” by Yong Zhao, March 28, 2014:
http://zhaolearning.com/2014/03/29/how-does-pisa-put-the-world-at-risk-part-4-misleading-the-world/
and
“WHAT DO INTERNATIONAL TESTS REALLY SHOW ABOUT U.S. STUDENT PERFORMANCE?” by Martin Carnoy and Richard Rothstein, Jan, 28, 2013:
Click to access EPI-What-do-international-tests-really-show-about-US-student-performance.pdf
Victorino Verboten: don’t waste your gunpowder.
I provide a link to the redoubtable Dr. Mercedes Schneider. Two sentences should suffice in her commentary on Amanda Ripley and her obsession with the “vain” and “illusory” chimera of standardized testing.
The first has to do with numbers & stats. Dr. Schneider dealt a fatal blow to Amanda Ripley’s assertions by pointing out that—
“A euro is not a dollar.”
😱
Then she follows up with another startling display of logic, fact and good sense:
“The Finnish poor can only be represented on international tests if they first birth the children.”
😲
Link: http://deutsch29.wordpress.com/2014/01/04/ripleys-botched-attack-on-ravitch-a-euro-is-not-a-dollar/
Thank you for your comments.
😎
Thanks Krazy TA.
When “International tests show achievement gaps in all countries” between lower and higher income students, those who deny the impact of the conditions of poverty on student achievement and scapegoat public education in the US look grossly misinformed and awfully foolish:
http://www.epi.org/blog/international-tests-achievement-gaps-gains-american-students/
Thanks Krazy TA.
When “International tests show achievement gaps in all countries” between lower & higher income students, those who deny the impact of the conditions of poverty on student achievement and scapegoat public education in the US look grossly misinformed and awfully foolish:
http://www.epi.org/blog/international-tests-achievement-gaps-gains-american-students/
We have all become victims of, what Postman, calls Technopoly — meaning that we have permitted statisticians/economists/ to colonize the educational field. Instead of honoring the direct experiences of teachers who have taught in urban school districts (I am one of them), we honor and even make policy based on individuals sitting in university offices in front of a computer applying the statistic of the day to a set of data they have selected in order to reach a conclusion that agrees with their particular ideologically bent. In Postman’s terms, “scientism” permits intellectual tools, like some statistic, to corrupt our social and economic values. Reading this article, what I would call dwelling statistical models and assumptions, Postman’s insights come alive. Tragically, while professors play with their numbers. teachers are left alone in these classrooms, with too many students, too little materials, and too little support. Oh, to have one of these “no excuses” professors teach my seventh period modern problems class—on a Friday, after the pep assembly.
“We have all become victims of, what Postman, calls Technopoly — meaning that we have permitted statisticians/economists/ to colonize the educational field.”
I agree, but would change one word: “colonize” to “parasitize”.
The economists– it’s mainly economists (many of whom actually abuse and torture statistics, quite unlike real statisticians) have made a manure pile of their own “discipline” (the financial meltdown of 07-08 is just the most extreme example) and are now looking for new pastures to exploit and defecate in (and even criminalize, in some cases)
It’s not just education. They do it in other areas as well (eg, climate science).
Many of the “stars” of economics who have insinuated themselves into “hosts” outside their own field are looked upon as charlatans in sciences with far more rigorous standards than their own (if the economists indeed have standards)
These people should just butt out of things they know nothing about, but they won’t, of course, because they actually believe they are experts (Dunning Kruger effect).
Some DAM,
Do you reject Chetty’s research that found small class sizes and experienced teachers in kindergarten are associated with better outcomes of students post high school?
Alan C. Jones and Some Dam Poet,
Your comments are on target and should be heard by policy makers. Unfortunately, their ears are plugged with dollar bills.
As a clarification, the mere possession of skill sets is inadequate to expect one to be fully employed in a free economy.
Jimmie Dale is unable to find a critical mass of highly qualified plumbers with superior interpersonal skills for his Baker Brothers Plumbing in Dallas, Texas which is a “customer for life” category of organization as opposed to a “we will beat anyone’s price” company.
Jimmie’s techs are immaculate, as are their clothes and trucks. There is no throwing down a cigarette butt in front of the customer’s house, as so often occurs with contractors and tradespersons, as Jimmie prohibits his employees from smoking in company vehicles.
Just as China has over 100,000 unemployable engineers due to their inadequate interpersonal skills, the stereotypical plumber is not a candidate to wear the Baker Brothers Plumbing uniform given the high standards maintained by Jimmie Dale. Having high interpersonal skills are essential for his plumbers as they are guests in people’s homes, frequently when he and the lady of the house are the only ones present, and there is no room for compromise on interpersonal skills.
Jimmie prefers to have unfilled positions rather than hiring individuals not up to his standards.
Those of us who like to have things done right the first time prefer to deal with companies of this sort of high standards.
One root cause of the success of Rafe Esquith’s Hobart Shakespeareans, set in an area
of the most dire poverty in the country, is that each child has instilled the importance of the “work hard, be nice” mantra.
The exceptional interpersonal skills of each and every Hobart Shakespearean opens doors not open to the typical individual.
If Rafe’s proven methods result in virtually every single student becoming a productive member of society, paying taxes and becoming very solid citizens. might there be some logic in considering emulating his proven methods instead of plodding forward with our early 1900’s industrial assembly line mindset so prevalent in public education in the US today?