In recent days, there has been an extended discussion online about an article by California whistle blower Kathleen Carroll, in which she blasts Randi Weingarten and the Teachers Union Reform Network for taking money from Gates, Broad, and other corporate reform groups, in some cases, more than a dozen years ago. Carroll also suggests that I am complicit in this “corruption” because I spoke to the 2013 national meeting of TURN and was probably paid with corporate reform money; she notes that Karen Lewis, Deborah Meier, and Linda Darling-Hammond also spoke to the TURN annual meeting in 2012 or 2013. I told Carroll that I was not paid to speak to TURN, also that I have spoken to rightwing think tanks, and that no matter where I speak and whether I am paid, my message is the same as what I write in my books and blogs. In the discussion, I mentioned that I spoke to the National Association of School Psychologists at its annual convention in 2012, one of whose sponsors was Pearson, and I thought it was funny that Pearson might have paid me to blast testing, my point being that I say what I want regardless of who puts up the money. At that point, Jim Horn used the discussion to lacerate me for various sins.
Mercedes Schneider decided to disentangle this mess of charges and countercharges. In the following post, Schneider uses her considerable research skills to dissect the issues, claims and counterclaims. All the links are included in this piece by Schneider. Schneider asked me for my speech to the National Association of School Psychologists as well as my remarks to the TURN meeting, which are included.
I will make two points here. First, Randi has been my friend for 20 years, and I don’t criticize my friends; we disagree on many points, for example, the Common Core, which I oppose and she supports. I don’t hide our disagreements but I won’t call her names or question her motives. Friends can disagree and remain friends.
Second, I recall learning how the left made itself impotent in American politics by fighting among themselves instead of uniting against the common adversary. I recall my first job at the New Leader magazine in 1960, where I learned about the enmity among the Cannonites, the Lovestonites, the Trotskyites, the Mensheviks, the Schactmanites, and other passionate groups in the 1930s. That’s when I became convinced that any successful movement must minimize infighting and strive for unity and common goals.
Even earlier, Benjamin Franklin was supposed to have said at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

I respect you a lot, Diane….. AND it’s not my business – it’s your life and of course you get to live it as you please…. AND…since you put it out there, I don’t agree with your stance re Randi and I think the commonalities you share in your personal lives are colouring your perspective….
I personally don’t know/understand how you can call a friend someone who works to achieve the exact opposite of what you believe/support at such a fundamental level….
I don’t know how you can pull down a gate between what happens during office hours and personal time at these levels of power….
I’m trying to imagine if it would be possible to be friends with Bill Gates, and agree to disagree on what he’s doing to (almost single-handedly) reform an entire national institution?
Would it be possible to be friends with Arne Duncan, and agree to disagree on what he is doing in public education?
Would it be possible to be friends with Michelle Rhee and Wendy Kopp and agree to disagree on what they’re doing to deprofessionalise teaching and privatise public ed?
Hmmmmm….
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My dad is a conservative and a Christian. I am a liberal and on my worst days, agnostic. Yet, I still love, respect and admire him. We have heated debates and we listen to each other. Diane’s friendship with Randi is, number one, her business, and number two, will certainly provide the kind of dialogue we really need right now – candid, respectful, informed.
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Thank you, Erin. If I agreed with all my friends about everything, it would be boring.
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I am sorry, this is not about disagreeing about music, art, literature, food, favourite holiday destinations, historical events, basic differences in religion or between political parties, about abstractions…
THIS is about where this world is going, fast…. THIS is about the slide into plutocracy – a fascist plutocracy at that….THIS is about the experience and fate of millions of children…
I don’t understand how you can be friends with someone who spends the majority of her waking hours working to produce the antithesis of what you say you hold dear in life…
And as others have said, there are major issues with your presentation of what happened in the 30s…. and at some point we come to what are “deal breakers”…. lines in the sand that are morally impossible to cross…. places where we have to make a stand… and if our “friends'” lines in the sand are not in those same places, then the relationship pretty much cannot be sustained…
Think about Nazi Germany…. people in the same family had to disconnect from each other because some followed the Nazi path – passively or actively, while others took the view that Nazism was wrong and turned away, passively, or actively fought against it… and families and friendships were ruptured…
THIS is the same…. and yes, I will be accused of being hyperbolic…. but I am not being hyperbolic…. IF you cannot see that this is the same (because what’s happening in public education is the microcosm of what’s happening at the macrocosmic level) then you are being wilfully blind and ignorant.
It’s ironic, really…. there are direct parallels to what’s happening on the Israel/Palestine war front. Jewish people are having to choose to identify with or distance themselves from Zionism. The net is awash with pictures of some Jewish people setting up deckchairs on the beaches, eating and drinking as they watch the bombs fall on Gaza (with some calling for the killing of the mothers of Arabs/Muslims so that the Palestinians are destroyed as a race), while other Jewish people – from the most conservative branches of Judaism – are massing in the thousands in protests in cities all over the world, and within Israel itself crying: “not in my name, stop this genocide”…
So, Diane…. because in my world the personal is the political and the political is personal…. you and Randi are both Jewish…. imagine that ed reform is the Israel-Palestine conflict, and it’s inflicting a kind of genocide on millions of children and their future. Will you sit on the beach with Randi or will Randi join you in the protest? I don’t see her joining you in the protest… can you still be friends with her, if she sits on the beach? If she actually enables the dropping of bombs on the children playing on the beach across from her beach?
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I would include Kathleen Carroll on the list of people to hang together with, despite any differences and regardless of whether she is a friend, because she aims to stop privatization and cares passionately about preserving public education as well.
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Being able to respect the opinions of others, and connect with others, even when they have radical differences from our own, is a sign of maturity (healthy social and emotional development). It is also what made our democracy strong. How much we are willing to tolerate in “difference”, is a matter of personal choice. As long as another person is not attempting to indoctrinate me with beliefs that I perceive to be immoral or criminal, I am open minded enough to tolerate the differences of opinion while still respecting the person.
However, I am not able to tolerate social friendship with others who are promoting Common Core because I have observed first hand the psychological damage via anxiety and depression it has caused too many children. I am an elementary Title I teacher and consider the environment of Common Core to be cruel and inhuman treatment for elementary children. It is abusive, and I cannot respect anyone who recognizes that abuse and still supports it or supports others who promote it.
The question now is, how do we diminish the great divide that is now causing “black and white thinking” in our country. That is a dysfunction of Borderline behaviors. The stress in our mainstream society has caused people to distrust others, and to become more isolated within their own groups like a modern feudal system.
This “black and white thinking” is causing so much dysfunction in our society since too many people won’t associate with others unless they all think alike. This is causing the new return to segregation.
“Black and white” thinking is an example of “adult children” who were “indoctrinated” in childhood to think like their parents, since they don’t have an identity of their own. It is the authoritarian model that has been perpetuated in families, schools, corporations, and government. It led to our banking meltdown, it is leading to our public school meltdown, and it will lead to the meltdown of our democracy.
It is characteristic of “adult children” to use coping mechanisms of “avoidance” and “denial” that were conditioned in childhood dysfunctional families.
Healthy mature adults should be able to cooperate and respect others of “differences”. Perhaps it is time for us to begin a national campaign of “rehab”. Al A Non for All !
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Political leanings, musical tastes, religion, a lot of very passionate topics and ideas we can agree to disagree on. Youre right but values are another issue.
One cannot pretend lies and malicious betrayals like this are divergent styles. I might befreind people with different values but those who bring harm to others , whose word is worthless, who is always saving her own Hyde will not be tolerated.
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With Kopp and Rhee one knows where they stand . It may be on Enemy turf but at least it’s not shaky ground.
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Both Sahailia and Cosmic Tinkerer make very valid points.
Randi Weingarten often gets lauded on Diane’s blog for some small, amorphous, meaningless talk on Common Core, even though Weingarten has (1) taken millions from Gates, (2) consistently supported Common Core, and (3) specifically tied Common Core to teacher evaluations.
Ravitch says (as she does here) that we all have to stick together.
Maybe she should tell that to Weingarten.
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Loyalty to a friend is a noble thing, but if your friend is a general, and you find out she is collaborating with the other side, would you follow her into battle? How is this defensible?
http://tinyurl.com/mbnvu4h (Look at the links.)
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Philaken,
Thank you for the link.
The activities of Pew, reach beyond a failure to identify John Arnold’s involvement in their “research” on pensions. Media apologists implied Pew’s conduct, relative to pensions, was aberrational but, that’s apparently not true. I was unaware of the myriad connections between AFT leadership and the well-known names of those who are destroying the unions. The most damning information is the connection to Broad.
Has Ms. Weingarten offered an exculpatory explanation? If not, your analogy is dead on.
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Life is not a VAManiacal formula with unimpeachable data that will yield the numerical perfection that sends the likes of Raj Chetty, John Friedman, and Jonah Rockoff into paroxysms of mindlessly ecstatic euphoria.
It’s messy and unpredictable and slippery. Let us resist the urge to clutch our pearls and fall on the nearest fainting couch, followed by hysterically recycling secondhand versions of Dick Cheney’s 1% doctrine while searching for someone on whom we can vent our FUDD [fear/uncertainty/doubt/dread].
This blog purports to be a site dedicated to discussion about—and by implication, action to ensure—a “better education for all.” That a pretty tall order to fill. As long as its owner makes it live up to that purpose, I’m in.
And despite some serious obstacles, the owner of this blog has demonstrated by word and deed outside of her online living room that when she says she’s for a “better education for all” she means it.
I reserve the right to disagree with her if she changes her mind on VAM and privatization and standardized testing, just to name a few blockbuster deal-breaking issues, but up to now I think she is on the right side of history—and I would be remiss not to acknowledge that it has come with some real costs to her.
I would simply advise everyone to be careful where they draw their ‘lines in the sand.’ I do not agree with a few things she has advocated and done but someone far wiser than me once said something like—
There are priorities and there are priorities.
IMHO, considered thoughtfulness is required in times like this so we don’t confuse #1 or #2 on our list of ‘most importants’ with #99 and #100.
Just my dos centavitos worth…
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I’m in, too, KrazyTA.
Diane has led the charge to do the work regardless of friendships. She may say she doesn’t criticize her friends, but from what I have seen, she has never shied away from carrying on the debate. She has made her stance on CCSS clear, even while her friend Randi has made a different stance just as clear. The work has transcended friendships, and I hope vice versa.
Perhaps this incident reflected an absence of that kind of flexibility. Is this what happens when whistle blowers become too isolated to test potential discoveries on trusted comrades before sticking their necks out? In our zest to fight for justice and truth, both of which have been hard to come by in the realm of public education the last few years, there is the possibility of imprudent haste rather than deliberate discourse. That is more likely if we jettison everyone who doesn’t share every single part of our agenda. We need allies to rely on for reality checks and even moral support. We can’t do that simply by looking in the mirror.
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Karen Wolfe: I wish I had written what you wrote.
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Thank you for your comments.
😎
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Well said, KrazyT and Karen.
No one said we had to march in lockstep behind Diane. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t.
In either case, there have been some exciting discussions on this blog, debating the issues. And the more we question, the more we understand what is going on.
Randi is a whole other issue, but then, I’m not interested in reading her blog. I’ll stick with Diane.
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Diane may be on “the right side of history,” but Weingarten clearly is not.
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Why has it become so difficult to agree to disagree with a friend? In a new film “Geraldine Ferraro: Paving the Way” George H. W. Bush recalls how he and Ferraro became close personal friends after the election despite their disagreements on policies. I would call it an opportunity for a healthy, informed discussion.
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I can certainly see how two people can be friends and share opposite opinions happens continually with friends and family I have where they confuse me being against corporate welfare and the pillaging of the public commons with being a liberal, Democrat, or big spending entitlement loving guy. (“This is what YOUR president wants to do”, “What do you think of YOUR guy Obama now?”…and so on)
Bringing in “commonalities you share in your personal lives are colouring your perspective” is an unusual choice to make, I would point out that clearly, whatever commonalities exist have led these two friends to still take differing views on the best way to improve/protect public education. Then I would say that it is likely that Randi’s “insider” position and obligation to try to serve the greater good has led to there needing to be some unfortunate compromises. I have personally seen it as I communicate with NYSED associates, Regents, NY Assembly people, with the Working Families Party, union leaders past and present…
There are people who wish they could do what they truly feel is right, but feel powerless as they are “forced” to jockey for political position/majority, or “prevented” from speaking up for what is right because they believe/know which way the wind is blowing and believe they would be hung out to dry.
That’s why I have heard “I know, but there’s little we can do right now. You need to get together and call ****; Write to them; Let them know…”
That’s why I’ve been told “Sadly, that’s the state of education funding in our state…”
For some, it’s just easier to go along with “Our schools are failing and bad teachers and lack of good standards is the problem” then tackle
“Our society and economic policies are failing the most vulnerable while rewarding the greediest among us who, coincidentally, are controlling policy”
I believe Randi is doing her best to manage within the current climate. I philosophically agree more with Diane, knowing that she may be more free to say the things I more agree with. I know the best thing to happen would be for an undeniable majority of the public to resist the well-funded minority. Already politicians are beginning to waffle and go with “moratoriums” and the like. But this is merely the wealthy’s way of circling wagons to plan. We can’t let up.
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To see another writer’s perspective of Diane Ravitch, read Jonathan Chait’s July 8 blog post in New York magazine’s Daily Intelligencer titled “Teachers Unions Turn Against Democrats” (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/teachers-unions-turn-against-democrats.html#comments). Chait, who clearly has not read any of blog posts Diane has written, describes her as a former “right of center” commentator of education who has “…converted to the cause of teachers-union absolutism with an evangelical fervor”. I left a fairly long comment that concluded with a plea for Mr. Chait to read some of the links in her posts on value added testing, on performance pay, and on the effects of poverty on children. If he did, I think he might be persuaded that his analysis of the problems in public education miss the mark.
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Whersen, if Chait read the blog, he would know that I often disagree with the unions. I insist on respect for teachers, not for unions.
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wgersen
Chait lost his credibility for journalistic integrity, earlier, by not addressing the public’s perception that his wife is employed by charter schools and was associated with the Center for
American Progress, whose agenda is anti-public education.
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Sorry off topic but GREAT article http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/07/why-poor-schools-can-t-win-at-standardized-testing/374287/
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Diane , I don’t like the friend card. It’s getting in the way. Take a break. That friendship is really impacting progress.
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HOW? Diane doesn’t make policy or have a say in all of this garbage being thrown at teachers. While I strenuously disagree with Randi Weingarten, I respect Diane’s friendship and loyalty to her.
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Diane, I agree real friends should be able to disgree and remain friends.
The Left’s large tent has been a huge obstacle. While having a tent that welcomes many sometimes the individual concerns need to be set aside for the good of all.
Our problem became worse when the Right invaded our anti reform tent. Their tin foil hat arguments against CCSS have hurt our arguments based on pedagocical concerns and research.
While our tent is large and welcoming, we still have to guard against those who want to enter and pull out our stakes collapsing our efforts.
When real friends disagree the outcome many times is a stronger bond. Let’s not confuse that with those who are not our friends.
I disgree with Aft’s Resolution 2 and Randi’s take on the CCSS. Yet I understand Randi is a friend to teachers and I will not give up trying to convince her that CCSS is not needed.
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Greens to teachers?
Randi supports
CCCS
VAM
Merit pay
TFA
Gates
Need I go on?
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It should say Friend to Teachers.
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NJ Teacher…I agree with you. I have personal friends I can disagree with, but they do not have the voice and power that Randi does. When I see her on interviews “representing” ME and My Colleague’s “opinions,” I just want to tell her to STOP. She is NOT representing our opinions, and that’s a job she’s highly paid to do. My colleagues are sad and frustrated and applying for retirement because they can no longer function under the policies that our own union leaders seem to consider “workable.” They’re not. And actual PEOPLE, teachers and our students, are being adversely affected. I’ve seen it up close and personal, and have experienced it myself. So that would be my line in the sand. Randi has power. She pretends to speak for us at a moment of crisis. She does not. Personally, were she my friend, I would tell her to stop talking and start listening.
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RRatto, that’s my goal too. Just as she came to realize that VAM is not a good way to judge teachers, she will also realize that the Common Core is a waste of time, energy, and resources.
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Diane, I completely agree with you about this. I think Randi will eventually recognize the insurmountable flaws of Common Core. If people who have already reached that conclusion cut her off, how can they expect to help her evolve her thinking?
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Thanks, Karen. Randi came to see that VAM is bunk. I will keep working on her about the CCSS.
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I’m sorry Diane. Suggest that your friend Randi to come to my school, and see first hand what this reform crap is doing to my students, my colleagues, and myself before she goes on national television pretending she’s speaking for “us.” That’s what she’s paid to do, but she’s not. Unlike her, we don’t have time to come around to a realization…we already live it.
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I think we have to hold ourselves to the same standards we criticize others for. When we see reformers and politicians taking money from Gates et al, we call them out on it.
I am not saying that Diane would ever compromise herself or her mission. I respect her as much as anyone on these pages. But appearances matter. None of us who fight for public schools should take money from, or appear at events sponsored by, the enemies of public education. And when you have your own blog, followed by hundreds each day, it is not necessary to do that.
As far as friendship goes, when you publicly criticize those who are complicit with the reformers, it is not personal. To her credit, being friends with Randi has not stopped Diane from giving space in the comments to those who have serious issues with what Randi has done. The evidence is overwhelming that Randi has sold out her own members in many ways, negotiating the contract in Newark and appearing with Christie to name just one. Those who feel they have been betrayed by Randi, and have the facts to back it up, should be listened to.
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Louis,
I wish I had the chance to talk to the followers of Broad, Walton, Gates. If they invited me, I would view it as a chance to break through the echo chamber. But they haven’t invited me.
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Louis,
Randi recently negotiated a terrible contract in NYC via Mulgrew incorporrating many elements of the disastrous Newark contract. To make matters worse, due process rights for ATRs were substantially weakened.
As a Newark teacher, I am living this nightmare. I lost my budgeted position and I am EWPS (Employee Without Placement Site). Every EWPS I have met is over fifty with a plethora of graduate credits.
I have personal friends who support the NRA and the Iraq Invasion. Others oppose women’s rights and union organizing. They are my friends because we care about each other. I am not questioning Diane’s choice of personal friends. I am challenging the blinders she wears in regard to the role of the AFT in the corporatization of American public education.
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Diane – Randi is a follower of Gates and Broad… according the the AFT Union website, the union is STILL partnering with both on various programmes/projects….
You’ve talked with Randi…. tried to break through the walls of the echo chamber… and you’ve been unsuccessful…
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All over the country AFT locals have been “encouraged” to seek out new ways to “partner” with districts to ensure great teachers are in every classroom. Most of the time it’s involved encouraging older teachers to leave the classroom via “improvement” plans. National leadership has 100% swallowed the warrants of the deformers vis. “Bad teachers.” They call it “getting out in front of the issue.” I call it capitulation.
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Just so we remain very clear that to the HANGING TREE is where our democracy is headed. This must be our guidepost. And thank you again, Mercedes, forever putting your big heart, brain and computer to the disentangle work in everyone’s behalf.
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Bravo Diane and Mercedes Schneider. Let’s hang together around Diane. If organizations and individuals aim at transparency about money and other influencers such as memberships in organizations and contributions to various groups, that is good enough for me. I too have been criticized for making small donations to groups that do some good but also have evolved into groups that oppose a majority of what I currently think based on facts today that are different from the facts at the time I made my small donations, reject my critics. And Diane should too. We all are mixed bags depending on the twists and turns in our lives and our evolving worlds.
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The minute it becomes about personalities and not goals, strategy, and tactics, teachers are doomed. I don’t care about leadership personalities. I want there to be a disciplined rank and file voice, democracy,,and results. If that means some leaders are getting in the way and have to go, so be it. I’m not a purist, but we all know–even if we don’t admit it– there are lines that simply can’t be crossed if you’re a classroom teacher, there are deal breakers. Those shouting out “big tent” in the face of those absolutes have ceased to listen to legitimate concerns.
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Diane, your comparison with the oftimes internecine vitriol of the 1930s left wing intellectuals does not inform then current situation. The issues that drove the CCNY lunch room tables to ideological warfare that could cleave friendships were based on core, large scale ideological differences that Camden to play themselves out in the various public intellectual forums from the 1930s to the 1960s. Even today, the remnants of those old divisions make themselves known.
The issue with Randi Weingarten that must be honestly confronted is that she supports a cornerstone of thev’deform movement. In maintaining that position she aligns herself with those whose aim is to destroy teachers unions on the way to destroying public school education. Her posture on the Common Core, as she attempts to parse it fro VAM, runs smack Against the vital interests of her union constituents, students, parents schools and communities. She has accepted huge sums of funding for the AFT coffers.
The bonds of friendship do standup against run of the mill even serious political differences. What we have in this case is the highest elected leader of one of the two largest teachers unions aligning herself, with some parsing, with the ‘deformers’; those who delegitimize and would destroy hard earned collective bargaining rights, while undermining the viability of public education. This is not a run of the mill difference of opinion. The consequences are of critical long lasting importance.
I will not dip into questioning the bonds off friendship. What I do question is your soft glove approach to confronting head on a friend who I has taken key positions that hurts. her natural and elected affinity groups in suh a grievous manner.
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Well put John. This is so obvious to me, can we stop pretending here?
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John, I. May be wrong but I think Randi is knowingly distancing herself from the enemies who pretend to be friends, and meanwhile AFT does an outstanding job of exposing and fighting the declared enemies of public education, like ALEC, and the many other rightwing groups that want to defund public schools.
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I watched the livestream feed of AFT14 and watched Randi’s response during the speech of Rev William Barber…. she was so “into” it…. carried away by his passion… and his words described, clearly, in plain, unvarnished, non-nuanced English, exactly what is going on in ed reform and in the bigger societal picture…. and he described, again explicitly, in plain language, what needs to be done to fight back against all of this… and Randi was agreeing completely, repeating his words, his exhortations, joining in the touchy-feeley group hugging… she did the same during and after the speech of young Asean Johnson….
Those two speeches, and many others in the same vein, gave Randi the perfect opportunity to turn around and publicly pull the union (and herself) away from ed reform…. AND SHE DID NOT DO THAT…. instead, over the course of those three days, she continued to help embed ed reform further…
Randi IS NOT “distancing herself from the enemies who pretend to be friends” and the AFT is NOT doing an outstanding job of exposing and fighting declared enemies of public education etc…. ALEC and right wing groups are a comparative small fry in this issue…. it’s not about rightwing versus left wing, republicans versus democrats…. it’s about the establishment and anchoring of a fascist free market capitalist plutocracy….
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Thanks for your post. Your description of RW’s pretenses versus her actual behaviors is, unfortunately illuminating and gives the lie to her supposedly pro teacher, pro public school, pro kids and parents positions. Lest liberals continue to live in their free market dreams of an equal playing field, your analysis is clear and to the point
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Diane is avoiding the elephant in the room.
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Man’s (Randi Weingarten’s) action are the picture book of his (her) creeds.
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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The lesson of the ’30s is that if you are too ideologically pure, you splinter into dozens of ineffective groups.
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Anyone who has studied the history of the American Left realizes that our current situation bears no resemblance to the ’30s. I do not advocate ideological purity, which of course is not the case in our present situation. I support a front populaire, but positions of leadership can’t be held by leaders such as Randi Weingarten. Her actions in support of Common Core and her relationships, both financial, via accepting tainted funds and her continued and apparently close ‘table’ relationships with the ‘deformers’, has fatally delegitimized her elected union leadership position. At best she has been co opted by our enemies. It is time for her to resign. The problem, is that the union rank and file is under the thumb of Weingarten and her allies in then so-called Unity Caucus. Look what happened to Karen Lewis and the CTU delegation. How is the AFT to return to democratic decision making and reemerge as a union that fights for its members, students, parents and public schools? I assert that such a rebirth begins with Randi Weingarten resignation.
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Diane, all of the groups you mentioned put together were never particularly effective, being Trotskyist sects that are far better known for their literary alumni than for their political success. With very few exceptions – notably, Farrell Dobbs, the leader of the Minneapolis teamsters strike of 1934 – their existence was tangential, at best, to the great struggles of the 1930’s.
In other words, even if those groups had remained united – an impossibility, since to this day Trotskyist groups reliably suffer factional splits – they would at their peak have had far fewer than 5,000 politically irrelevant members at any given time.
It’s interesting, though, that you mention the Schachtmanites, since Albert Shanker was involved with them as a young man, via the Student League for Industrial Democracy, which Shachtmanhad a great deal of influence on in that period. Max Schactman’s wife worked at the UFT for many years, and Shanker’s militarist opinions on the foreign policy issues of his day were very close to those of Schactman, who turned right in his later years.
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Thanks for putting to rest the invalid comparison of 1930s factionalism with making valid assertions about Weingarten’s selling out herAFT membership
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John A, I don’t consider the comparison of left factionalism to be invalid. It is about firing at your allies instead of the mighty forces attacking all of you. It is Called the psychology of small differences. Read isaac’s “Idols of the Tribe.”
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Diane, with all due respect., the internecine battles amongst the ’30’s radicals was based on core ideological differences; there was, in there minds, no way to bridge those differences, and they endured for many years. Let’s not forget the affect of the Hitler-Stalin Anti Comintern Pact, the Stalinist purge, The Black List and the purges of radicals from the labor unions. So, there were both endogenous and exogenous forces in play that both affected unity amongst radicals and which, ultimately led to eviscerstion of radicalism in our country. By any stretch of the imagination, standing in ‘unity’ behind Randi Weingarten does not relate to the history of the left wing opposition in this country and is counter productive to resistance to the ‘reformers’.
Randi Weingarten has, to put it bluntly, “cooked her own goose”, through her own behaviors she has demonstrated that she is, at best, untrustworthy: her choice of alliances; her position on Common Core; her acceptance of funds from ‘deformers” ; and her stifling of AFT rank and file opposition to ‘deformer’ politics. Simply put, she has not represented the interests of her membership, while harming students, parents and schools.
In the end, despite my deep admiration for your written research and public positions and your continuing efforts to maintain this incredible venue for the free flow of ideas, we shall part company on the issue of Randi Weingarten and the concept off a unified opposition to the ‘deformers’.
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Diane, just to be clear: Randi Weingarten has, in my mind, as well as in the minds of a goodly number of posters, demonstrated that she is not an ally. Her anti democratic union control, her acceptance of funding from our enemies and her refusal to disavow funding from our enemies, places her squarely outside the unity umbrella. These are not small differences. I wish that this was not the case.
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Diane, with all due respect (and I do not mean that in a perfunctory way), you are right about one thing, and in error on another: while it is indeed true that divisions among allies help their enemies, it is equally true that Randi Weingarten – as proven time and again by her actions – is not an ally of teachers.
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Michael, agreed. Diane’s analysis and conclusion does not comport with the objective and subjective conditions confronting American radicals in the ’30s -’50s.
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I really don’t see the great need to have Diane agree that Randi is a skunk. She is entitled to her opinion. Randi did what every other organization seems to have done: allied with the reform agenda. Over time, her position has slowly changed. Whether it is enough or fast enough are separate questions. I am only now seeing any glimmering of change on the part of the professional organizations to which I belong, nothing even close to that of the union leadership. I would like to see a fundamental shift in union governance. I find the machinations of people in leadership to maintain control repulsive. (Go, Karen Lewis!) In too many instances, I suspect union leadership has spent more effort at maintaining power than supporting the membership. It is a problem not only associated with national but local chapters as well. In one sense, most (some, many) unions have made the attack on the union movement easy by ignoring the core values that led to the movement. The membership became lazy and cynical. Things are changing. Whether Randi remains part of that change is really up to the membership.
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Thanks for your comment 2. A breath of fresh air here.
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All you write has merit. Of course, Diane can only dot where she sits, for whatever reason she chooses to so it there. No doubt change will come slowly. Union members can I’ll afford to remain either half asleep or lazy. They and their students wii psy the price.. As for most craft unions, their history is fatally tainted by their purging radical members, including Communists.
Finally, once again, the hope for the AFT rests with the new leadership as exemplified by Karen Lewis, of whom I am in awe and cross my fingers and toes that she is evidence of an emerging AFT leadership. It is only a matter of time before Weingarten exits from the scene. Let it be sooner rather than later. Everyone will benefit…except the ‘defirmers’ and the inbred AFT infrastructure. This horse has been beaten to death.
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Well we know what Randi did, she endorsed Malloy, no friend of public education.
We can not wait for Randi to come around, I”ve been waiting.
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Before anyone tells me that I don’t know what it is like to be screwed by people who have bought into and wield the power of reform doctrine, I will remind you that I was a casualty of the reform narrative a few years ago. As much as I sometimes feel like finding my own personal reformer to punch or a ‘collaborator” to spit on, I have to think long term. These people are not all going to disappear in a cloud of hellfire. In fact, I would wager that they are as varied in their opinions as we are. Why, we might even find commonalities. Some of them might really care about kids! Imagine if the reform movement disappeared from the landscape tomorrow. Poof! No more! How many really think that we would go happily dancing into the future with a righteous plan for public education which we would all embrace in all its detail. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
It bothers me immensely that every professional organization I belong to has bowed down to the gods of Common Core. I hate reading about new books on deconstructing complex texts the common core way. I cringe every time I read a professional article that tacitly accepts the necessity for accountability through testing that does nothing to inform instruction. I don’t want to race anywhere much less to the top. I’m too old for that nonsense.
However, I don’t want to marinate in my own beliefs without testing them against the beliefs of others. Unless I want them shouted at me or shoved down my throat, I had better figure out to engage people with opposing opinions without looking like I want to rip their throats out. Somewhere out there in time we will have to build bridges. Maybe we don’t have to burn all of them down now.
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I’ve said it many times before on this blog….far too many educators bought into the NCLB and Race to the Top nonsense.
Many have done the exact same thing with Common Core.
It doesn’t help a whit and it hurts quite a bit when public education’s so-called “leaders” are pointing those they represent in the wrong direction.
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I believe we are finally at a point where unions have to stop reflexively asking, “What do we need to concede in order to get the elites off our backs for another year or two?” That’s the question unions have been asking for decades, and it’s pretty clear we’ve run out of things to concede without stripping the essence of the union entirely.
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Why doesn’t Weingarten herself defend her actions?
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The president of my AFT local is a co-founder of TURN. She is an incredible leader and has fought for decades against corporate “reform.” My local knows who the enemies are: Gates, Broad, Kochs, Waltons, DFER, ALEC et al. Unfortunately a local school board member who is notoriously anti-union has been perpetuating the information that TURN takes money from Broad, she neglects to mention that it was 15 years ago to get TURN established. This anti-union board member insists that my local receives money from Broad, which is a lie, our local has never received money from Broad and it is insulting to the hard work of the rank and file members who sacrifice their lives to be active. This board member would like nothing more than to bust our union and tries to get teachers to support this lie.
We must be very careful on painting with wide brushes and connect the wrong dots. I have been an active rank and file member in my local for 30 years and am proud of my local’s tireless work against corporate reform, its transparency, and its leadership.
Busting unions is the main goal of the corporate reformers because they understand that unions stand in the way of their goal of privatization. Should we be on the same page as corporatists?
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Politics in America is messy and complicated. Internal union cultures likewise. Randi has successfully gotten to the top of a powerful American union by navigating through that AFT culture. Apparently a strong majority of union members, as represented by the delegates to the AFT Convention, is okay with that. Lamentations that she isn’t radical enough or that she should resign are pointless. (BTW, the recent NEA and AFT calls for Duncan to resign or be “retrained” were pretty pointless, too.)
Randi can be a leader in calling for the decoupling of high-stakes testing from the CCSS, even while not renouncing the standards themselves. She now opposes VAM in teacher evaluation. The AFT can play a big role politically this fall in evicting some very rightwing Republican governors.
These are perilous times not only for public education, but for America as a whole. For too many the American dream is disappearing. All of us will need to be more resolute and visionary in the days ahead. I think it was Eisenhower (that radical!) who said, “When the people lead, the leaders will follow.” Let’s redouble our efforts.
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My guess is that rumblings from the rank and file and leaders of powerful locals have helped open Ms. Weingarten’s eyes with respect to VAM. Pretty clearly it’s not “pointless.” It’s called democracy.
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I think you misunderstood my point: after the fact calls for resignations don’t work. Yes, rank and file pressure is certainly not pointless.
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you are wrong on the point of a ‘strong majority of union members’ being OK with that; you forgot to factor in the issue of the Unity Pledge, and the way the whole resolution, committee, voting system is rigged, with one small block having an inordinately large amount of power….
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We can certainly debate how small-d democratic the UFT in New York and the AFT as a whole are. That’s what I meant about internal union cultures, and most unions are imperfectly democratic at best. By saying the game is “rigged,” you imply that it’s hopeless to try to change it. I maintain that we must continue to fight for justice on all fronts, no matter the odds. with our eyes and hearts open to the possibility that people can change when given the opportunity. Otherwise we’re writing off an awful lot of potential allies.
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I don’t mean to imply its hopeless to change anything; I don’t think there’s any point in trying to change it within the current ‘rigged’ framework – look how long people have been trying to do that, with minimal success.
I don’t believe we have the luxury of time to be content with making tiny inch-by-inch changes, advances. There’s too much at stake and we will inflict damage on two, maybe three generations of kids before we secure any definite, healthy alternatives. I am not prepared to sacrifice all those children to this agenda, are you?
I say we need revolution… cant believe I’m going to quote a biblical/new testament analogy, but I say we need to be Christ, in the temple, throwing over the tables of the money-lenders….
And we can have a revolution in education – IF people will
1: reclaim their unions and replace the leaderships with people who will represent their members, be member-directed
2: sidestep the unions if they cannot reclaim them; breakaway and create a new, single union
3: be willing to refuse to implement ed reform
4: connect with parents to form an alliance whose sheer numbers would overpower the current agenda and take back ownership of public education
5: come up, with parents, with a new vision/plan/model for what real child-centred education looks like, and insist that this is the direction this country should follow…
I don’t see any point in trying to work with “allies” who have proven, over and over again, that they are not coming from a space that is in any way complementary to what we want for education/our children.
I mean – how many times am I going to tell myself that the person repeatedly kicking me in the shins doesn’t really mean to hurt me, doesn’t know what s/he is doing, just doesn’t hear my screams of “ouch, that hurt, please don’t do that”, and that if I just take it one more time, maybe they’ll actually become my friend, stop hurting me and work with me for something I want…. seriously…
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True revolution comes from true revulsion; when things get bad enough, the kitten will kill the lion. ~ Charles Bukowski
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Sahila, thank you for this last post. It’s incredibly demoralizing and lonely to feel you don’t have allies out there, but your post reminds me that we’re out here. I don’t look for “hope” because hope is an opiate. I look for solidarity. Thank you.
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Louis July 17, 2014 at 10:47 am I think we have to hold ourselves to the same standards we criticize others for. When we see reformers and politicians taking money from Gates et al, we call them out on it. I am not saying that Diane would ever compromise herself or her mission. I respect her as much as anyone on these pages. But appearances matter. None of us who fight for public schools should take money from, or appear at events sponsored by, the enemies of public education. And when you have your own blog, followed by hundreds each day, it is not necessary to do that. As far as friendship goes, when you publicly criticize those who are complicit with the reformers, it is not personal. To her credit, being friends with Randi has not stopped Diane from giving space in the comments to those who have serious issues with what Randi has done. The evidence is overwhelming that Randi has sold out her own members in many ways, negotiating the contract in Newark and appearing with Christie to name just one. Those who feel they have been betrayed by Randi, and have the facts to back it up, should be listened to. Reply * dianeravitch July 17, 2014 at 11:45 am Louis, I wish I had the chance to talk to the followers of Broad, Walton, Gates. If they invited me, I would view it as a chance to break through the echo chamber. But they haven’t invited me.
________________________________
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Lisa Haver,
A few years ago, I was invited to the Aspen Ideas Festival, a nest of reformers. I debated Wendy Kopp. Should I have turned it down? I didn’t.
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I absolutely agree that people should get along and respect the ideas and opinions of others without holding a personal grudge; however, when an issue of difference creates a hardship for some, especially if a particular group is being mistreated, anger is a natural response. Anger against injustice drives my passion against Common Core.
Somehow I can’t imagine Patrick Henry sitting down in a pub with one of the British soldiers and having a “respectful” conversation.
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Izzy, I oppose Common Core, and I have no trouble talking to people who disagree. There are many other important issues. If I cut off everyone I disagreed with, I would have no one to talk to but my dog and my cat.
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Again. Sorry Diane. Your dog and cat do not, as far as I know, hold positions as highly paid leaders of one of the country’s most powerful teacher’s union. They don’t get air time. Your friend Randi does, and she sure doesn’t speak for me.
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REAL Public Schools are schools that accept everybody with very few exceptions. Charters are not real Public Schools and all thinking people, know it. This abuse of people’s rights must be stopped by any means necessary.
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Diane,
Don’t let these petty personal attackers slow you down or divert you from your important work. They are like mosquitoes on the rear end of an elephant. A gentle swish of the tail will do the trick.
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First, Mike, your blogging on the crisis in the Chicago Public Schools is first rate. Second, let’s separate Diane’s strenuous work in support of public schools, students, teachers and parents from many posters justified criticism of the AFT under Randi Weingarten’s ‘leadership’ (See.for example, the treatment of the CTU and Karen Lewis at the recent AFT convention)
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Mike Klonsky,
I love you.
Diane
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I do not understand why you believe these are “petty personal attacks” on Diane. She does amazing work..who would be reading her blog if they didn’t think otherwise? I just take issue with the fact that she has access to a powerful spokesperson who is selling us out and only says “She’ll come around eventually.” Eventually is right now…we don’t have the time or resources to wait for Randi to “Get it.”
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Diane:
Just tell people your magic wand is in the shop and that they’ll have to wait for Randi to change her own mind in her own sweet time. Meanwhile, the rest of us have to do what we have to do, and not worry so much over whether Randi will or won’t agree or will or won’t act in the way we would like. Since Randi will, like it or not, be the AFT president for the next two years, it makes more sense to me that we view her as potentially convincible on key issues like CCSS and testing rather than as an “agent of the Gates/Pearson cabal.” She might even surprise us! What’s that old saying? “Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.”
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Thank you John. If you read my blog you already know about my many differences with AFT and NEA leaders. Petty personal attacks on good people like Diane are another matter.
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Mike, I subscribe to your blog and am most pleased to know from whence you come.
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mklonsky: what you said—and you are not one to mince words.
My first comment was perhaps too abstract and abstruse for some. So let me reword it.
Is there any evidence to support the idea that Diane has trimmed the sails of her advocacy for public education because of personal feelings and relationships? To judge by this very widely read blog that bears her name, evidently not, since Randi Weingarten has taken more hits on this blog than most.
Not to mention that Diane has indulged in some self-criticism and fessin’ up of her own.
I for one will agree with her where I can, disagree where I must, and let’s hope she and I and everyone else who comments here finds enough common ground that we can find ways to work together.
A personal note of appreciation: many thanks for your blog.
You help keep alive one of the best American traditions:
“I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — and I will be heard!” [William Lloyd Garrison]
Keep posting. I’ll keep reading.
😎
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Jack Gerson no doubt knows NOTHING of which he speaks: AFT, NEA And The Privatization Drive Against Public Education
http://www.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18RVbBsnas
there are links at the bottom of the info box under the video, referencing where the information comes from…
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I’m not quite sure why there’s this huge backlash against Kathleen Carroll – I am inclined to think the reaction to her story and Jim Horn’s piece is a bit of a storm in a tea-cup; as far as I can tell, most of what she has said is accurate… I have researched TURN myself over the past six years and it is definitely a creation of the ed reformers and is doing exactly what it was designed to do – try to change the teaching profession and unionism from the inside out…
Kathleen Carroll is seen in this recording of a forum held in California in 2012….
Who Is Behind The Privatization Of Education: Gates, Broad, KIPP, Pearson, WestEd & The Gulen Schools
Speakers:
Madeline Mueller, Professor SF City College, AFT2121
Susan Miesenhelder, CFA CSU Longbeach
Kathleen Carroll, Lawyer and Whistleblower At Commission On Teacher Credentialing
Bruce Neuberger, AFT 4681 San Mateo Adult School
Sharon Higgins, Researcher and Blogger On Charters, Parents Across America
Danny Weil, Journalist and author on charters & privatization
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Though I understand those who hope Randi will change her spots, the evidence does seem to indicate otherwise. The press conference when Randi and John Engler extorted all to “hold the course” on Common Core did it for me. John Engler! Sorry, but she has crossed the line, many times. I will welcome her back, any time, no problem. I bear no grudges. But for now, she’s on the other side of the line.
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Let’s be clear: Diane has nothing to prove to anyone. Criticism rightfully falls on the AFT leadership and the decisions made under Randi Weingarten’s tenure. Will she review and revise her ‘deformer’ positions? Will she throw the full weight of the AFT into the battle against the ‘deformers ‘? Will she support reforming the AFT into a more more democratic union? All these questions are open for full discussion.
The case against Randi Weingarten’s continued leadership has been well articulated and compelling. The position in favor of Weingarten are propelled by the hope -a wing and a prayer, so to speak – that she will make significant movement away from ‘deform’ positions and alliances.
Weingarten has a huge burden to overcome. I, for one, would not bet my teachers retirement pension on her meeting her burden of proof.
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I’m curious about the shapes that Weingarten’s supporters will have to tie themselves in in order to rationalize their continued support for RW when she stumps for Hillary.
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I don’t think it’s been a secret that Randi and even Dennis were accepting money from Gates and I would bet Bloomberg as well. And while it drives me crazy that Diane writes glowing posts about Randi when I and others know Randi’s actions are usually smoke and mirrors, Diane lets each and every one of us comment on our feelings.
While I think it’s wrong for a union to accept money from Reformers, it’s equally wrong to amass a group of teachers into Randi’s personal UNITY army. If the majority of UNITY delegates had an ounce of integrity, Randi would not be in power. So Gates is not the only villain in this. As teachers, we need to blame ourselves as well for allowing this to happen by refusing to cast ballots during union elections.
As for Diane accepting a speaking engagement, paid or free, I think any time she can get herself out in front of any Reform group is a good thing. We all have family members we disagree with. Even Wm F. Buckley had many Liberal friends unlike the Neo-conservatives of today. It’s important to keep the dialogue going.
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schoolgal: you are quite right to point out that Diane is willing to take on the self-styled education reformers in their own forums; sometimes one of her and three or four of them with the moderator stacking the deck against her.
She does more than a credible job even under adverse circumstances. She is almost uniquely suited to do that—and it makes the members of the education establishment look like the cowards they are. Literally some of the supernovas of the education status quo like Michelle Rhee and David Coleman, faced with the prospect of actually engaging in something like a fair dialogue with her in public, quite unceremoniously flee hysterically every which way, leaving all dignity behind.
Yes, let’s keep the dialogue going.
Thank you for your comments.
😎
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@ schoolgal:
Yes, Diane has written what seem to be “glowing posts about Randi when…others know Randi’s actions are usually smoke and mirrors.”
Diane has praised Weingarten for “incremental steps” even as Weingarten continues her strong support for Common Core. And when that gets pointed out – and criticized – Diane gets quite defensive.
It needs to be noted that both the AFT and NEA helped set Common Core in play, and it is not going away.
If Weingarten is Diane’s friend, and Diane doesn’t want to criticize her, fine.
But that doesn’t mean that Diane should attack those who point out just how flawed Weingarten’s “leadership” is either.
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@democracy…yup and yup.
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Dear all super duper educators:
I appreciate all logical debates about friendship versus moral belief in this particular thread.
Yes, nobody seems to remember the principles of being an educator. It is all about having patience and tolerance. Without this ultimate principle, educators cannot democratically cultivate friends, learners, nor subdue opponents with respect.
I am very lucky to have stumbled upon this website to learn a lot of excellent information about Public Education from Dr. Ravitch’s wisdom and many contributors’ experience and knowledge on her website.
If water is so pure, there will not be any living creature in it. If we cut off all people who disagree with us, we are self-righteous, and gradually become dictators without awareness. This is very dangerous to any mono-cultural society, especially in an educational environment. (Please think about the Ku Klux Klan in Mississippi, Black slavery, the cruel killing of a young gay man in Texas, Civil wars … due to the difference in ideology /personal idea?)
To me, educators and law makers should recognize the boundary between Public Education and Private Education. As a result, all authority personnel, in Departments of Education and in Teacher Unions who abuse their power to misuse Public Education funds, should be punished severely with jail sentences and suspension of their educational /legal career for life.
However, it won’t bother me at all if all corporate volunteers donate as much as they want to Public Education Funds, local or state, speaker…as long as they have no control over Public Education Policy and over all educators.
In conclusion, we, educators definitely should take a stand to protect Public Education at all costs, that is, including our career, our belief, our dignity and our survival not only within this generation, but for many upcoming generations. May King from Canada. Back2basic
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He who hangs is usually tangled up in puppet strings.
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The record is more than clear.
As head of the AFT, Randi Weingarten took the Common Core money from Bill Gates, signed on to the Common Core standards, and endorsed the Common Core accountability and evaluation measures. Weingarten even joined a and a Gates Foundation nabob to wrote that it was critical for American public education to “align teacher development and evaluation to the Common Core state standards.”
The NEA (Dennis Van Roekel) essentially did the same. In essence, both the AFT and NEA bought into the corporate “reform” myth that public education was “in crisis” and needed rigorous standards and a healthy dose of “accountability to recover and to make the U.S. “economically competitive.” And this was AFTER the a decade of No Child Left Behind testing insanity. So, what kind of vision is that? What kind of “leadership?”
It was only after a vehement backlash from teachers that Weingarten and the NEA began to reconsider. What they signed on to is an awful lot to walk back.
Yes, Randi Weingarten has made some “incremental steps” (Weingarten has said she will no longer take Gates cash, and she has distanced herself from value-added evaluations) to undo what she’s helped to set in motion. But it’s likely too little, and too late.
Both the AFT and NEA are capable of more significant changes. The big one is disowning the Common Core.
The explicit purpose of the Common Core is to prepare kids “to compete successfully in the global economy” (that rationale has recently been scrubbed from the CCSI website). That’s what the AFT and NEA agreed to. And that’s what’s really dumb, and disturbing.
The big-money foundations –– Gates, Walton, Robertson, Bradley and Koret Foundations –– push “market-driven” corporate-style “reforms.” They are supported by the likes of Pearson (the testing behemoth), ETS (think College Board and PSAT, SAT, AP, and AccuPlacer), ACT, Achieve (funded by big business), McGraw-Hill, Houghton-Mifflin and Microsoft. And by big bankers (Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan) and hedge-funders. And by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the Business Roundtable.
These groups have pushed incessantly for corporate and upper-bracket tax cuts and laissez-faire regulatory policies that caused a huge pile-up of deficits and debt and led to a shattered economy. The supply-side policies these organizations pushed led to increases in poverty, millions of lost jobs and houses, a corporate culture that fosters off-shore tax evasion and funds oligarchic ideology, and gross income inequality. They broke the economy. But the perpetrators point the finger of blame at public education. The Chamber says the Common Core standards “are essential to helping the United States remain competitive” in the global economy. The Business Roundtable says that increasing student achievement via the Common Core is vitally important to increasing U.S. competitiveness (the Roundtable has even resurrected the “rising tide of mediocrity” myth).
Public education’s vital, historic mission is to develop citizens in a democratic re[public who are critically thoughtful and reflective, and who both understand and are committed to the core values of democracy: popular sovereignty, equality, justice, freedoms for all citizens, tolerance, and promoting the general welfare of the nation. In essence, the purpose of public education is to nurture democratic citizenship, not to undermine it with blind allegiance to SMART goals and test scores.
Actions tend to speak much louder than empty words.
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None of it is good, the CC, RTTT, NCLB, VAM etc. it’s quite the opposite, it’s damaging. Nothing to salvage or revise. The revision proposed at AFT’14 was a step backwards. It’s been years already waiting for the incremental steps. I sense restraint being recommended in pointing these things out to AFT, NEA, NYSUT, that’s all. We’re just so darn polite, “be patient, it takes time, they’re coming around”. Sit tight, speak out but not too loudly. So many missed opportunities by our unions.
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Well said, democracy.
As with all politicians, so too with Weingarten: don’t just listen to what she says, but watch what she does.
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It should be pointed out that when well-heeled “revolutionaries” like Ben Franklin no longer had any use for true revolutionaries like Tom Paine (who came from poverty), it was Paine who was shunted to the side, dying broke and alcoholic. Without Paine, this country still acknowledges Her Majesty. Don’t kid yourself.
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Great, great, great piece of activist work … http://inthesetimes.com/article/16938/the_yes_men_secure_the_homeland
Why cant unions (and the rest of us) use these tactics to fight back against ed reform?
Lack of imagination… too hide bound…. too passive…
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I am very confused about TURN. It seems to be operating much like DFER. They use the name of AFT/NEA, throw money at them and they get to be experts. This is an education reform pattern. We need to stop it. I have never heard of them and I am a very active NEA member, it doesn’t seem that the membership is generally aware of them. I’m wondering how many people would speak for DFER when they oppose their agenda. It is essentially the same here. I think legitimacy is given to illegitimate groups through these methods and through getting people who are respected to speak at their events.
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a new blog piece which is relevant to this matter: http://atthechalkface.com/2013/07/04/how-aft-and-nea-became-partners-of-corped/
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and for people who like information presented in song and graphics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwA04N2HsPw
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