Jesse Rothstein, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley, tested for the defense in the Vergara trial.
In this article in the New York Times, Rothstein contends that the elimination of tenure–the goal of the multi-millionaire (or billionaire) behind the lawsuit–might make it more difficult to recruit teachers for schools that enroll poor and minority children.
Judge Rof Treu compared his ruling to earlier cases about desegregation and funding, trying to portray himself as a champion of “civil rights.” But, Rothstein writes:
“…there is a difference between recognizing students’ rights to integrated, adequately funded schools and Judge Treu’s conclusion that teacher employment protections are unconstitutional.
“The issue is balance. Few would suggest that too much integration or too much funding hurts disadvantaged students. By contrast, decisions about firing teachers are inherently about trade-offs: It is important to dismiss ineffective teachers, but also to attract and retain effective teachers….In fact, eliminating tenure will do little to address the real barriers to effective teaching in impoverished schools, and may even make them worse.”
In his own research, he found that “…firing bad teachers actually makes it harder to recruit new good ones, since new teachers don’t know which type they will be. That risk must be offset with higher salaries — but that in turn could force increases in class size that themselves harm student achievement.”
He concludes:
“The lack of effective teachers in impoverished schools contributes to [the achievement] gap, but tenure isn’t the cause. Teaching in those schools is a hard job, and many teachers prefer (slightly) easier jobs in less troubled settings. That leads to high turnover and difficulty in filling positions. Left with a dwindling pool of teachers, principals are unlikely to dismiss them, whether they have tenure or not…..Attacking tenure as a protection racket for ineffective teachers makes for good headlines. But it does little to close the achievement gap, and risks compounding the problem.”

It isn’t about being bad teachers. In some cases it isn’t even about being an out-of-date teacher. It is about dropping expensive teachers, dropping teachers who actually know what works, dropping those who just won’t let the wool be pulled over their eyes, dropping those who won’t bow down to the Michelle Rhee’s and Bill Gates of the world. It is about being an inexpensive game player who views education as a temp job with no value of its own. It is about disrespect. It is about change. It is not about bad teachers or inadequate education or fairness or equity. If we think it is, we are delusional.
LikeLike
The American teacher mindset is vividly apparent in many of these letters. Education reform–almost any reform that fails to pay teachers more–will fail. Indeed, must fail if it contradicts in any major way the education status-quo that reliably shorts America on sufficient STEM skills, achieves high dropout rates, and leaves us looking distinctly sub-superpower status compared to many of our global neighbors and competitors. I smiled when I read “dropping expensive teachers who actually know what works…” If only they did.
LikeLike
Ironic, as it is your ‘mindset’ that is apparent by your sarcasm… the teachers I have met and known for four decades were, for the most part, full professionals whose experience burnished their practice AND THEY WORKED FOR A PITTANCE COMPARED TO OTHER COLLEGE GRADUATES AND PROFESSIONALS. The teachers I have met, and I have meet hundreds never talk about salaries… although they really deserve to afford to live a decent lifestyle in the communities where they reside.
Teachers that I have met and known, were wonderful, successful educators until the top down revolution put petty, often failed human beings in charge, with not a shred of accountability… and things feel apart fast!
With over hundred thousand of those ‘bad’ veteran teachers sent packing, to be replaced with TFA and novice practitioners, whom they do not support, the revolving door was set in motion. Then, within a few years, out the door they go, saving about $40K per teacher in benefits if they had been vested…. and forget the trauma at finding reputation shredded after dedicated service, and humiliation and harassment served up my people who have never had to spend ten months enabling children to learn.
If you are ignorant of the HUGE conspiracy to monetarize the public schools and at the same time undermine the road to opportunity that is and has always been THE INSTITTUTION OF EDUCATION, then it is either willful, or because you just don’t have the facts.
Teachers do not ‘teach’…they enable human minds to acquire skills and knowledge… and only if there is SUPPORT from the administration and parents. The authentic National Standards established that in the Pew fund research out of Harvard… I know…. I was a NYC cohort.
So, if you want to join the ‘bash-the-teacher’ narrative, and think that anyone can teach with a little training, that is your choice, but why here, where genuine educators are puzzling out the shenanigans and trying to find a solution?
That was a rhetorical question, as derailing authentic conversations on a blog is sport for someone with noting better to do.
LikeLike
Hmm. You think all teachers are just insufficient? Insulting! Not every teacher is a Renaissance person. True. However, why would all the geniuses work for pittance pay?
LikeLike
Marvin, I wonder why you are so jaded. What has made you distrust and even denigrate the many teachers who have dedicated their lives to helping their students learn and grow? Do they earn more than you? Did a teacher belittle you or did a teacher call you out when you didn’t do your work? Did you fail or drop out of school and then blame the teachers for not making the curriculum fun and exciting so that you would be compelled to attend class, pay attention, and do your homework? Are your teachers responsible for the paths you chose in life? Or perhaps a teacher didn’t meet the needs of your children.
Whatever the reason, you are on the wrong side. The current policies will not make public education better, it will just scare away potentially good teachers who will go into more rewarding fields where their talents are appreciated with both praise and renumeration (instead of statements such as you have made).
LikeLike
The first thing that needs to be done is eliminate tenure.the word “tenure”.
In most states, tenure is a misnomer that carries with it the connotation of a lifetime job, much as some college faculty. What teachers have in my state, which I think is common, are contract levels, with a continuing contract issued after three years of demonstrated teaching. With it comes due process and some job protections. Seniority matters, but other things do as well. We are a right to work state, yet to this point there have been few cases of teachers being arbiter illy fired.
Yet we have a couple of legislators who want to go after “teacher tenure”. It’s an ALEC thing.
As long as we answer back with the same words, we lose. We need to make the argument for the protections and due process teachers need. Not the mythical “tenure”.
LikeLike
This is what I thought for many years, until recently. However, I discovered that teachers DO have more protections than other public sector workers. Also, experts, as well as the dictionary, describe teachers as having tenure. I thought it was a good thing because it protected teachers against so many injustices from parents and administrators but the fact is it WAS very difficult to dismiss a teacher once she got past her probationary period. Even when districts went through the process, the dismissal was often overturned at a higher level. I observed this myself.
Hopefully, if the Vergara case is not overturned, teachers will have the same type of due process rights as police, firefighters and city librarians. I can’t imagine that it would be constitutional (equal protection) to give them less, but then I’m not a lawyer.
LikeLike
Not in CT. If the administrators would do their jobs and people would pay attention and stop blaming teachers. See here:
Connecticut teacher tenure laws
To be tenured, teachers hired since July 1, 1996, must complete 40 school months of continuous full-time employment for the same board of education, provided the superintendent offers the teacher a contract to return for the following school year.
As of July 1, 2014, the reasons for terminating a teacher will be expanded to include “ineffectiveness” based on teacher evaluations. Other reasons remain the same: incompetence, insubordination against reasonable board of education rules, moral misconduct, disability proven by medical evidence, elimination of the position or loss of a position to another teacher, and other due and sufficient cause.
Tenured and non-tenured teachers are entitled to a hearing before being terminated for cause.
Under the new law, the termination process is shortened from a maximum of 125 days to 85 days.
LikeLike
There’s no constitutional right to have as much due process as another group of public employees. There is a minimum level of due process that the constitution guarantees all public employees who have a legitimate interest in continued employment (a.k.a. a property interest in their job) by virtue of some statute, contract, or practice. If a public employee has a property interest in her job, the constitution entitles her to that minimum due process. If a state wants to give one group of its employees greater due process protections than another, there’s nothing in the Constitution to stop it, as long as it doesn’t deny the required minimum due process to any employees with property interests in their jobs.
LikeLike
FLERP- the property interest is the tenure, though, right? So no tenure, no property interest?
LikeLike
Joanna — in a sense, yes, but it can get confusing because “tenure” is often used to refer to both the existence of the property right and the substance of the property right. There are separate legal analyses for whether (1) a given employee has the property interest that gives rise to due process rights and (2) if he does have it, how much process is “due.” Certainly if the answer to the first question is no, then there is no constitutional due process issue.
LikeLike
FLERP – What are the provisions of the US Constitution on which your assertions are based?
LikeLike
Fifth (“nor be deprived of . . . property, without due process of law”) and Fourteenth.
LikeLike
Interesting, Diane, that you chose to abridge the op-ed’s conclusion by omitting the following sentence: “Instead, policy makers should continue experiments with bonuses to attract good teachers, as well as ways to reduce the transfer of effective teachers out of schools where they are most needed.”
That sounds like a call for merit pay to me.
LikeLike
Which doesn’t work as we are not motivated by carrots. We are professionals not shysters. Policy wonks and edufrauds will never get it.
LikeLike
Oh Come on Linda!
You know our little secret.
We teachers have been sitting on our hands for years, holding back the good stuff. Just waiting to compete with the teacher next door for a little bit of chump change.
Dangle a few hundred in front of us and we will really jump higher, reach out further, save every kid!
😉
LikeLike
On a good day I get to go pee and share ideas with my colleagues.
Keep your chump change deformer and get out of our way.
You’re making everyone’s lives miserable. Shoo fly.
LikeLike
Tell it, sister!
Tell it!
LikeLike
The most important motivation is when a person decides to become a teacher and decides to remain a teacher. We are often presented with stories of teachers who leave teaching because of economic hardship.
LikeLike
The teachers who have dedicated their lives to children, teaching and learning are the lazy unionized thugs ruining our country. That’s the Gates USDOE mantra. Catch up TE.
LikeLike
Not my mantra. I look to finding and keeping excellent teachers in the classroom. I think it will likely require different pay schedules for music teachers and physics teachers.
LikeLike
Professionals? Of course, in most cases. Yet, the notion that teachers are not motivated by “carrots,” does not ring true. Since I am not a teacher I can be forgiven for listening to those who are, and were. They include my career-teaching spouse, my mother, now deceased, and our teaching friends. They do not form a monolithic group and differences of opinion can be stark.
LikeLike
Tim, teachers may be paid more for doing more. Tying higher pay to higher test scores has never worked. And it makes those bubble tests far too important. We should get rid of them, not make them the determinant of teacher evaluation and pay.
LikeLike
Diane,
I so, so agree with you. Please keep on as the voice of reason.
LikeLike
Merit for getting higher test scores at high SES schools? Or, merit pay for teaching at low SES schools to attract more people as positions open up?
LikeLike
Merit pay does not work in attracting teachers to dangerous neighborhoods. Many teachers do not want to work with children who may be hungry, or homeless, or victims of violence. It requires a great deal of energy to sort through the emotional issues caused by unstable home environments. Few of the students have two involved parents. Some do not even have one reliable parent. There are parents who are incarcerated. Stop blaming the teachers for poverty, discrimination, segregation, racism! Am I responsible for the evils of American society?
LikeLike
And NJ Teacher, you forgot to mention that children who live in violence are often violent themselves. The tougher the school, the more dangerous for the teacher. Every year there are teachers in the Buffalo Public Schools who are injured by their students, some seriously. It is not unusual for the police to assist the security guards assigned to each high school when an outbreak of violence occurs. Yet the Buffalo teachers are one of the lowest paid districts in the area. Yep, no combat pay. It’s a wonder that there are so many dedicated teachers willing to take a chance.
Oh, and those 30 TFAs due to work in the “worst” schools to get those “better” results, I give them a week at most.
One word of advice: Never get caught between two girls who are going after each other (they fight dirty).
LikeLike
Ellen T Klock,
You are absolutely right! How did I forget the violence of the students? Three teachers were recently assaulted at my last school. A gang leader girl slapped the principal. The police were there weekly. Teacher cell phones were stolen. Kids were getting high in bathrooms. There were fights in the halls and on the concrete playground. Kids constantly recited violent rap lyrics.
LikeLike
Ellen T. Klock & NJ Teacher – In a sane world violent students like those you describe would be instantly expelled permanently much to the benefit of those students who do wish to learn.
LikeLike
Rothstein has repetitively argued that merit pay programs are short lived and do not meet cost benefit analysis. Rothstein has also argued in the Vergara trial and in other places that VAMs are not good predictors of teacher quality: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14442
Looking at Rothstein’s recent NBER paper, it looks like he is advocating for different school contracts/ pay scales/ bonuses. See http://gsppi.berkeley.edu/faculty/jrothstein/rothstein_performancecontracts_nov2013.pdf
For instance, a Title 1 school in a district would have a higher pay scale/bonus than a non-Title 1 school in the same district. Or an inner-city school would attach bonuses to certificated employees but a suburban school would not. In the past, some have called this type of compensation “combat pay.”
Looking over his views in his work and where he is quoted in various papers, he does not advocate for merit pay. Tim is behaving much like the judge did in the trial: cherry-picking.
LikeLike
Actually, it was Diane who cherry-picked by removing the sentence from the middle of the op-ed’s conclusion.
Thanks for the links to Rothstein’s work (although the recent NBER paper isn’t opening for me). The problem with intra-district solutions is that surrounding districts will always remain an attractive destination for good teachers–they’ll either pay more, offer better working conditions, or both.
LikeLike
Tim,
Actually, Ravitch quoted a good-sized chunk of the Rothstein article. The context of Rothstein’s article is clear from what Ravitch quoted. Ravitch only leaves out Rothstein’s where-to-go-from-here point at the end. And this point, to be honest, is different from the point Ravitch makes with this particular blog post. If I was editing her post, I would advise that she do what she did. She is NOT cherry-picking to prove her point about “Eliminating Tenure Won’t Improve Schools.” She is NOT suppressing evidence to prove this blog post. She is NOT ignoring evidence that would contradict her point here. Perhaps you would have a case if she wrote a blog post about bonuses, where-to-go-from-here, and merit pay and left those sentences out. But this post is not about those topics. You are conflating them, Tim. Why?
It is clear that your personal definition of cherry-picking is different from the actual definition of cherry-picking. Ask yourself why. Try to have some integrity with your argument please. People cease to take you seriously when you pull stunts like this.
You can find the article that he refers to in the op-ed by looking up Jesse Rothstein and this title: ” Teacher Quality Policy When Supply Matters.”
LikeLike
The Morrigan, kudos on another well-crafted Internet scolding, but if the omitted passage weren’t central to the author’s piece, it wouldnt’ have ended up parked in such prime real estate. Merit pay or no, the centerpiece of his strategy involves publicly identifying teachers who teach more effectively than their peers, and paying them more to do the exact same job in the same school. I’ll set the over/under on the percentage of Diane Ravitch blog readers who believe this is a good plan at 16%, and I’ll take the under.
Most of Rothstein’s latest working paper is well over my head, but I found this paragraph to be interesting (p 32): “Moreover, I assume that new teachers recruited under alternative contracts would come from the same general population as do current teachers and do not allow for the possibility, sometimes raised in discussions of teacher quality, that there exists a separate pool of high ability potential teachers who would not consider teaching under current conditions.” I hope he does investigate this further in the future, because there absolutely is something to the pop-psychology theory that kids today are less likely to stay in any job for 30+ years, let alone working in a struggling school district.
LikeLike
Actually, Tim, it is common in these type of op-ed pieces to describe the where-do-we-go-from-here at the end, near or around the call to action. It is not prime real estate–it is basic argumentative format. Now that I pointed it out, you will start noticing it all the time. If the writer–any writer–did not include that, there is nothing to differentiate it from the defense/attack/status quo. Having or hinting that there is a possible alternative is a simple persuasive tactic to get a universal audience to side with the writer. The alternative need not be fleshed out–just the hint of it is enough to make universal audiences say perhaps we should listen to this guy.
You are correct at the end of your post, though, Tim. There is absolutely something to ALL his caveats (not just the one you quoted). The passage you quoted at the end of your last post illustrates one possible caveat to Rothstein’s optimal incentives argument. To understand what it is “Moreover” to, you needed to include the missing sentences for reader clarity. The paragraph actually starts here: “Finally, there are many aspects of the teaching profession omitted from my stylized model. I do not account for the possibility that teachers may be self-selected for unusual risk aversion; for the social status of teachers relative to other professions; or for the potential for high-stakes evaluations to undermine cooperation among teachers and principals. Moreover …”
Big takeaways from the Rothstein’s paper:
Rothstein argues in this paper that the optimal bonus is a RETIREMENT bonus:”In my model, the optimal pay schedule would have low annual pay and a very large performance-dependent retirement bonus.”
The tenure policy, he points out, is much more effective than the bonus incentive policy: “The bonus contract yields only small increases in average teacher ability, around 2% of a teacher-level standard deviation, while the tenure policy has over eight times the effect.”
LikeLike
The problem with a high retirement bonus is that it gives the local district a huge incentive to terminate folks before they qualify for the bonus. That has been a concern of many posters here.
LikeLike
What about the other conclusion, that eliminating tenure won’t actually lead to an increase in terminations because nobody wants these jobs? I wonder how many people here agree with that conclusion.
LikeLike
There may be a continuous churn of newbies who will slum for a few years, pay off loans while they find their real profession. There will be a shortage and that is the goal: Deprofessionalize teaching, bust the unions, increase class size, reduce the labor force, focus on testing and funnel taxpayer money towards a never ending stream of techno-gadgets, curriculum changes and eduschemes. Go USA!
LikeLike
Why would the goal be to create a labor shortage? Doesn’t management usually want a glut of labor, so management can have more leverage to dictate compensation?
LikeLike
A shortage of experienced, credentialed, opinionated, qualified, dedicated, career focused and god forbid, unionized teachers is the goal.
A revolving door of teach for awhiles is good enough for other people’s children.
LikeLike
At one renew school, the principal kept only the specials. He hired all new teachers. The test scores went down. Most of the new people do not stay. They cannot hack it and they have no sense of commitment to the kids. Children need adult role models especially children who come from unstable homes. School becomes their safe haven. Good teaching comes from the heart not from a Danielson rubric.
LikeLike
You mean an Ivy League diploma and the seal of Wendy approval is not enough?
LikeLike
That all makes sense, but isn’t it the consensus that low SES schools have trouble getting the experienced teachers to stay, too? (leading to fewer experienced teachers at those schools than at higher SES schools).
LikeLike
Didn’t you read the Gates funded “research”? After five years teachers don’t get better and masters degrees don’t improve your performance. They don’t want experienced teachers. They want “great” teachers = new, compliant, naive, test prep/data driven robots with no opinions. Catch up Flerp.
LikeLike
Flerp,
All I have is anecdotal evidence from my sorry life experience. I have no DATA. Three highly experienced teachers (including me) received e-mails that we are going in the pool. None of us requested a transfer.
LikeLike
NJ Teacher
Newark? Paterson? Jersey City? Camden? Trenton? Passaic?
Elizabeth? Other? Just curious I taught for 8 years in one of these.
Sorry to hear its gotten that bad.
LikeLike
Bingo NY teacher!
Newark
Where did you teach?
LikeLike
Eastside HS under Joe Clark (1980 – 1988)
LikeLike
I adjunct at the community college there.
Were you in the movie?
LikeLike
We were offered walk on parts but refused. They displaced some of our classrooms to store movie equipment which put us in a negative frame of mind. We were essentially trying to teach that year while on a movie set. Never did get to meet Morgan Freeman.
LikeLike
Tom Cruise came to Newark to make a movie right by the school where I was teaching.
LikeLike
Now imagine it being filmed in your school. for months.
LikeLike
My daughter lasted a year. My niece left before she even finished student teaching. They both were math majors.
LikeLike
Signing bonuses will probably be the only thing that will end up working. Then teachers can move from place to place collecting signing bonuses since people won’t want to drop anchor with nothing to count on and they realize TFA cannot fill every job?
Bonuses reflect profit, in my mind. The profit of a company is good, the powers that be reward workers with a gifted share in that. I don’t understand the concept of bonuses when there is no profit driving the work. It’s a wacky idea to begin with.
LikeLike
Some districts already have signing bonuses.
They also going to need “remaining” bonuses or is that just simply a yearly bonus.
My daughter in the private sector gets up to a 3% yearly raise plus a bonus. My other daughter gets up to a 3% raise and a step increase.
The Buffalo Public School has a thirty year set of step increases to reach the top step, which includes five sets of two years on one step. This includes the three year wage freeze. No raises due to no contract renewal in over ten years.
These teachers deserve a bonus.
LikeLike
Hi –
I’m on the wrong thread, but since I’m not sure anyone will see a comment on an old thread, I’m posting here.
Having read both the Washington Post article on Gates & Diane Ravitch’s call for a Congressional investigation, I’m wondering whether Diane could start an online petition calling for an investigation. I think this is very important. Quite apart from whether one thinks the standards are good, bad, or in between, the process through which the standards came to pass needs to be put on the public record.
I don’t think it’s difficult to start online petitions —- so I hope Diane will consider it.
LikeLike
Cijohn,
It is a good idea to start an online petition. I am not the one to start it as I am still recuperating from surgery but would help to publicize it.
I encourage BATs to start it or anyone else.
LikeLike
Thank you! (And please feel better.)
I’m sorry – who are BATs?
If I were to write one or put one up, could you or others here vet for language? My feeling is that it should be simple: just ask for Congressional hearings in light of the Post story.
LikeLike
Cijohn,
If you post it here, I am sure you will get more than enough feedback.
LikeLike
Diane
I have written the petition for your review. I have used some of the phrases and sentences from you blog post because they were so well written. With your permission, I will have it published online through ‘Petion2Congress’. I don’t mean to put you on the spot and I fully understand if you choose to say no. If you have any strong objection please just delete this posting. I will gladly revise by request.
Dear Senators and Representatives
The truth about the new Common Core standards is finally out, and it is clearly time for Congress to scrutinize the story of Bill Gates’ swift and silent takeover of America’s public school system. Thanks to a fierce and fearless piece of investigative reporting by Lindsey Layton of the Washington Post, the money trail that lead directly to the creation of the Common Core standards is uncovered for all to see. In her June 7 (2014) article titled, ‘How Bill Gates Pulled off the Swift Common Core Revolution’, Ms. Layton reveals how the richest man in the world bought the enthusiastic support of interest groups on the left and right to push his own Common Core agenda. The idea that Mr. Gates, working closely with the U.S. Department of Education, has purchased and imposed new and untested academic standards on the nation’s public schools is a national scandal. Bill Gates and Arne Duncan, working as partners, have virtually eliminated state and local control of public education in America. The revelation that education policy was shaped by one unelected man, underwriting dozens of groups, and allied with the Secretary of Education, whose staff was laced with Gates’ allies, is ample reason for Congressional hearings. We urge each and every member of Congress to ask themselves, in light of these recently revealed facts, how can you ignore this nefarious and possibly unconstitutional attempt to align corporate profits with public education policy? This issue affects every taxpayer in America. Congressional hearings are likely to reveal the full extent of this apparent collusion. The American public deserves action from their elected officials. The time to act is now.
LikeLike
Nice job NY Teacher. Where do I sign?
LikeLike
Thanks. I would like Diane’s approval before I publish it.
LikeLike
Ten more years. Minimum retirement. Please send the check to Hotel Tropicana, Puerto Limon, Costa Rica. I going to make it. I have a picture of the beach on my classroom wall. I am like the guy in “The Shawshank Redemption.” Everyday, I am saving my pennies, learning some Spanish and chipping with that file against that wall. One day I will be free. That’s all you hear in my high school in the halls? What’s your date? When are you going? Are you going to do it early? Early retirement option.
LikeLike
This is an awesome post Mike. What fantastic imagery. I have been to Costa Rica and you’ve picked a great spot in a great country. Personally I’ll take St. John’s in the Caribbean; to each his own..But seriously, is it that bad in your district? I am having a blast ignoring all the BS and actually making my job more fun than ever.
LikeLike
As a principal, I learned that as when I was a teacher, the good teacher doesn’t worry about tenure. If they need a change to grow or don’t like their school culture, they’ll move and start all over again. The poor teachers with tenure are the ones that call in the union if they get written up for constant tardies or for worse offenses like leaving classrooms unattended and give administration hell. Do the students suffer? You bet they do. I think maybe someone should be talking to principals–oh, that’s right, some teachers think we “crossed over” and are less than human beings.
LikeLike
Teachers do not grant teachers due process rights, administrators do. Do your job and don’t blame the teachers. Get busy.
LikeLike
Behind every really bad (educationally harmful) teacher stands a lazy, incompetent, unqualified, out of touch principal.
LikeLike
This position assumes that teachers are constantly improving or stay at the same level of effectiveness they were when they received tenure. Is it not possible that some teachers become less effective after receiving tenure, for whatever reason?
LikeLike
Very few, due process rights do not make teachers stale. The profession will be destroyed soon enough, so don’t worry. Even TFA will not be able to save the USA. It’s not the lack of effective teachers in the city schools. It’s the lack of resources, lack of support, lack of respect, never ending disdain and the myriad of social issues that are plaguing our country. Teachers are the whipping boy for what the political hacks and policy wonks don’t want to deal with. If they continue to destroy our public schools and our profession, they will also destroy our country. The love and power of money is more important.
LikeLike
I am with you Linda. I teach in a high poverty school in a dangerous neighborhood. One TFA is high tailing it out due to her disillusionment with teaching. She was accepted to law school.
LikeLike
The teach for a whilers are rather wimpy. Staying in the classroom with the kids is beneath them not to mention they are extremely ineffective.
LikeLike
“The teach for a whilers are rather wimpy. Staying in the classroom with the kids is beneath them not to mention they are extremely ineffective.”
Yep
Our most recent ” superstar” TFA er is now at Harvard. And writing articles ( no doubt for his CV) about poor kids.
Climber, big time.
LikeLike
I taught for 42 years and had some excellent principals. The really competent people did not have “poor teachers.” These principals hired carefully, helped their new teachers, did not award tenure to ineffective ones, and helped tired veterans to move on or out. These principals were always excellent instructional leaders and were not reluctant to go into a classroom to model good techniques for struggling teachers.
LikeLike
Many principals cannot model teaching strategies having taught for five minutes or less.
LikeLike
The new breed of insta-principal bears no resemblance to the old school principals you are describing. What you are describing is a cultural artifact of the days of yore. My rants are against the young, inexperienced, yet brash principals who mostly ignore the advice of their best veteran teachers out pure hubris.
LikeLike
That’s what a lot of teachers say: “I don’t need tenure or the union. I’m a good teacher.” It’s not until they get stuck with a micromanaging or vindictive principal that they discover that they NEED tenure. I have had some amazing principals, but the principals I have had that were vindictive were awful.
LikeLike
Judging a book by its cover, I’d say that with a nom de plume like “changemaker” you and I would probably not get along. Yes, you have obviously gone over to the dark side. And if you can’t handle a teacher who questions administration (you know the ones that “give administration hell”) then you might think about getting into another line of work.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on We Are More and commented:
The lack of effective teachers in impoverished schools contributes to [the achievement] gap, but tenure isn’t the cause.
LikeLike
I have a real problem with changing the rules in the middle of the game.
LikeLike
I read this with interest this morning. I agree that people in general are willing to trade off job security for salary and have posted about that. I also agree that public schools have never adjusted to women having more career options, and thus having to compete with other employers. I think the way to encourage more high quality applicants is to pay them sufficiently and allow them to earn more through individual efforts rather than everyone moving in lockstep. Find good teachers and pay them to stay in teaching.
LikeLike
Define individual efforts TE: changing a diaper, cleaning up vomit, attending a student’s funeral, after school help or club, visiting an ill parent, donating clothes and computers to a family, blocking a bullet, breaking up a fight, consoling an abused child, planning field trips, purchasing supplies and books for your students. Would that be considered an effort? We don’t move in lockstep. We are humans dealing with little humans. We are not Stepford teachers YET.
LikeLike
All good indicators of individual effort. The teacher that does all those things doesn’t get a penny more than the teacher that does none of those things. In fact, if the teacher is a step higher, the caring effective teacher will ALWAYS be paid less than the uncaring teacher.
I have great faith in the professional teachers in a building to know who are the effective teachers and who are not. That is why I like peer evaluation. It is the professional teacher that should be the most offended by poor teaching, who should view great teaching with admiration and desire that great teachers are persuaded to stay in the school rather than leave for another school or another profession.
LikeLike
We’re bleeding teachers TE. The profession is being destroyed and both parties are responsible. I hope to last five more years, but I am not sure I will make it.
LikeLike
There were 4.11 million nonsupervisory staff in schools as of 2009-10. There were only 2.3 million 30 years ago. Is that bleeding?
LikeLike
I am going to go back to reading a really good book soon, so I am not going to go back and forth with you and your numbers. I am referring to the number leaving the profession the past few years and years to come. They will be plenty of jobs for the “great” teachers and the turnover will continue, but that’s the reformy plan.
LikeLike
Enjoy your book. I am reading Lawrence in Arabia, my middle child Gravity’s Rainbow, and my youngest Cold Mountain (though he is out in search of a big flathead right now).
My numbers are from the National Center for Education Statistics, specifically this table: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_035.asp
LikeLike
I have never met a teacher who has not aided students and bought classroom supplies out of pocket. Teachers have subsidized lunches, class trips and parties. They have bought Christmas gifts and winter jackets. They have contributed toward funeral expenses for families. Need I go on?
LikeLike
I know. You know. The kids know. That’s all that matters.
LikeLike
Linda and all others: Don’t feed any more goodies to TE.
He has been up sitting at the table begging on his hind legs long enough, and the more you feed him, the more he will never leave you, tongue hanging out and all.
If he still does not leave, which he may not, then just do what pet owners have done for decades: roll up some newspapers to make a stiff stick and smack him in the muzzle, directing him to return to his dog house, where he can chew on his bones and numbers and crunch both of them all day . . . .
LikeLike
Robert,
Are my posts really that threatening? Perhaps Nano can be taken out of the drawer and call me sexually demeaning names again.
If your narrative is so fragile that it can not suffer even the slightest scrutiny, I think it is more a statement about your narrative than the scrutiny.
LikeLike
Linda….
As always….
Exactly.
I, too, have to last just a few more years.
I always thought I would teach WAY past the 30 years. I loved it so.
Sigh.
Hang in, my friend.
Props also to NJ teacher and Robert R.
LikeLike
Heed Rendo’s advice.
TE’s arguments are written on a Mobius strip. Ignore him at all costs; eventually you will be sucked into a black hole located at the center of the country.
LikeLike
My positions are based on arguments and supported by evidence. Here, for example, with data from the NCES. Is your maritime so fragile that it can not survive scrutiny?
LikeLike
NY Teacher, thank you for a belly laugh. I needed that.
LikeLike
TE,
I am not the least bit threatened. I actually encrouage you to post here as often as you like. I enjoy smirking and even laughing at your logic.
I’m merely advising others who have more important missions to not waste their precious time and efforts on debating with your drivel, nothing more, nothing less.
I promise you that you are not at all threatening. You are amsusing, and maybe a thorn once in a while. That’s about it.
Compare and contrast you to people like Eli Broad, and you are an invisible moelcule in the grand scheme of things. You are the little pebble between the toes one takes one’s shoes off to remove. Broad, Gates, Duncan, Rhee, Bloomberg, etc. however, are all behemoth fire breathing dragons in need of a good old fashioned political slaying.
Please post more, as I enjoy reading but not responding too many times to your posts.
It’s better to band with the like minded to fight the substantial enemies in high stakes, dangerous battle than to get disctracted by a little child who has always marched to the beat of his own drum, singularly and without too much connection to other human thought . . . . .
It’s a little late in life to reinforce this child’s behavior. . . . . but I promise that if you show any glimpse of growth, I’ll be the first one to get you started on a sticker chart, and you can even take it home every day as long as you return it the next morning.
LikeLike
Game. Set. Match.
LikeLike
TE, as an economist, when you look at numbers that have changed that dramatically that quickly (i.e., the dramatic increase in the number of public school teachers as compared to the increase in number of pupils), you should be asking yourself what those numbers really mean. That stat should be a red flag to you and merit further investigation.
Here’s the reality: During this period, requirements for special education increased dramatically, and special education classes often have very low student/teacher ratios. That brings the total number of teachers up dramatically and the AVERAGE class size down dramatically, but the average non-sped class size remains about the same as it ever was, though there have been dramatic increases in average class size of late because of the “class size doesn’t matter” mantra being preached by education deformers.
BTW. from the National Institute for Education Statistics:
“The public school pupil/teacher ratio increased to 16.0 in 2010. By comparison, the pupil/teacher ratio for private schools was estimated at 12.2 in 2010. The average class size in 2007–08 was 20.0 pupils for public elementary schools and 23.4 pupils for public secondary schools.”
LikeLike
I had 29 in my class in 2011 and 28 in 2012. The fewest number I ever has was 21.
LikeLike
If you hear someone (e.g., Mike Petrilli, Bill Gates) say that “class size doesn’t matter,” that’s an immediate clue that this person KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT EDUCATION–that he or she, for example, has never actually taught a class and consequently DOES NOT HAVE AN EDUCATION-RELATED OPINION WORTH ATTENDING TO.
LikeLike
I don’t think I can provide the numbers that would satisfy TE other than what my own lyin’ eyes tell me: in my suburban district, all my general education 7th and 8th grade English sections are at 35 students, the max allowed by our contract. This number is consistent across our district in all of the core subjects. In neighboring districts, the gen ed sections run 5-10 students more per section.
Again, I doubt if these figures will satisfy TE, though.
LikeLike
The national ratio of students to teachers in public schools fell between 1980 and 2008, from 17.6 to 15.8 students per teacher, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. However, because the statistics count special education and other specialized teachers who normally have much smaller classes than regular classroom teachers do, the U.S. Department of Education estimates the current average class size is closer to 25 students (Sparks, 2010).
That’s from EdWeek. But it’s probably low, now, as class sizes have been increasing nationwide, and Duncan’s Education Department cannot be trusted to report this statistic (or just about anything else) reliably.
LikeLike
I think that the Education Department purposefully misrepresents these statistics. They feature on their pages the OVERALL average class sizes and do not explain that the low number is due to the outlier special ed classes, and they do not report, up front, the median class sizes. This is the sort of thing that has happened ever since the Education Department became an anti-teacher center of the Rheeformation, primarily interested in propagandizing for the Deform agenda.
LikeLike
These are the best numbers I could find: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_clr.asp
We might be able to do some back of the envelope calculations if we had a sense of the ratio of non-sped classes to sped classes and the average size of sped classes. If there were no sped classes and an average class size of 30 back in the day, and today there were equal numbers of sped classes and non-sped classes with sped classes averaging 5 students per class, that would drop the average class size from 30 to 17.5. We have implicitly assumed here that all the sped students came from outside the system but this just a rough calculation.
LikeLike
There are no magic numbers here to calculate. Different states have different requirements. Districts try to angle for federal and state dollars. They also have formulaic number management to maximize the dollars and to hide subgroups within districts when testing comes along.
I believe in Ohio that the maximum number of sped kids on a unit is 12. Our district tries to keep beneath that number in order to get the highest possible scores on state tests. Each student from a regular class is a smaller %age of the overall score since subgroups get their own rating. So we have adapted to offer differentiated learning. What is that? The regular ed tevjer, with little sped training is expected to meet all the needs of all her students. Unless a student has a very low learning level and are severely handicapped, the student remains in the regular classroom, often with no pullout time for sped assistance.
The assistants who are one on one with students with severe issues are not teachers. They are paraprofessionals who try to help the student complete work , often while the student is screaming or in need of constant behavior management. These students are mainstreamed and may or may not be on the roster of the regular ed teacher.
In our district, the teachers, regular or sped, who are in a building have a varying number of students. We have had budget cuts and kindergarten has 25 students currently. But we have tried to keep primary classes at 25 or less, although I have had 29 in 4th grade. They can save the cost of one teacher by giving the 5 of us 29 students each. A 6th teacher could ease the load by having 5 students from each of rooms, giving us 24-25 students each. It makes a huge difference in planning, grading, recording, and differentiating.
The middle school classes often have 35 kids. The high school classes, esp electives, can have as efew as 10 students.
When all these ratios are combined, we have our district teacher-pupil average. This number is meaningless because it doesn’t represent reality.
It is not to say that one class is more deservibg than another. But it has to do with juggling the numbers to hire as few teachers as possible. And they are thrilled when we retire since they can hire 3 new teachers for every 2 retirees who go.
Just remember…when 15 kids take Mandarin Chinese and 35 take English 11 and 12 are in sped in 4 classes and 18 are in a music keyboard class…these are representative of the “class size” for the district and fed into that “average”. It is not real. Teachers do NOT have it easier. Beluve me. I know.
LikeLike
That’s a prime example, TE, of a cherry-picked stat that is often trotted out and doesn’t mean what people think it means..Also, please note that ADMINISTRATIVE POSITIONS grew at a much higher rate during the same period. Part of this was due to the increased centralization and top-down regulation of our schools. One needs lots of educrats to do all that micromanagement of people.
LikeLike
And the key word is micromanaging, Robert. So the teacher does what they are TOLD to do (often against their better judgement), then punished when it doesn’t work.
LikeLike
Robert,
What number should I have quoted that would pass your cherry pick test? I went to the NCES, do you have a more authoritative site?
LikeLike
Did you read what I said about that figure, TE? The figure is commonly thrown about by PROPAGANDISTS who know quite well that the reason for the increase was not vastly decreased class sizes but, rather, primarily the addition of special classes for children with disabilities. CLASS SIZES FOR MOST TEACHERS REMAINDED PRETTY MUCH CONSTANT, WITH SOME FLUCTUATION, THROUGHOUT THIS PERIOD, and the people who throw around this figure know this. Irresponsible use of this figure by propagandists for Deform leads idiot politicians and members of the public to think that teachers are underworked now and that class sizes are too small.
LikeLike
Robert,
Do classes that my foster son took in our local high school simply not count as actual public school classes? That would seem to be the implication of your dismissing them so readily, but perhaps I am wrong.
I quoted figures about teaching staff, number of students, and real expenditure levels from the most authoritative source I can find. You are welcome to find some other authoritative figures about class sizes for the “regular students” that seem to be the concern here. I have no doubt that if you eliminate the small classes, the average size of the remaining large classes is for the most part unchanged.
LikeLike
again
Here’s the reality: During this period, requirements for special education increased dramatically, and special education classes often have very low student/teacher ratios. That brings the total number of teachers up dramatically and the AVERAGE class size down dramatically, but the average non-sped class size remains about the same as it ever was, though there have been dramatic increases in average class size of late because of the “class size doesn’t matter” mantra being preached by education deformers.
LikeLike
I have noticed, TE, that when a statistic seems to support an anti-teacher, pro-education deform position, you are willing to vet it and vet it and vet it. But when it might contradict an ed deform position, you are quite willing to pluck a number out of a table somewhere and not think AT ALL about what it really means. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
LikeLike
Robert,
As a heterodox poster here I feel a special responsibility to “vet” the numbers that score high on the truthiness scale of the dominant narrative. As for my own numbers, please feel free to explain that class size did not drop for the “normals”, only the special education students and, well, that is just not really relevant to anything of importance.
LikeLike
TE, again, clearly you did not read what I said. During that time, legislation was passed creating lots of new classes for students with special needs, and so the number of teachers expanded. But the rest of the teachers–the teachers of students in the general population–saw no great changes in their class sizes. These fluctuated up and down a bit but barely changed.
LikeLike
I understood perfectly what you said. If we only look at “regular ” students classes, class size has not changed.
DID I MAKE ANY CLAIM AT ALL ABOUT ANY CLASS SIZE CHANGES IN ANY OF MY POSTS?
LikeLike
No, you just threw out a misleading statistic with no explanation.
That kind of thing IS the dominant narrative these days.
LikeLike
I threw out the best numbers I could find from the most authoritative source I could find and linked back to my source.
You have made an empirical claim about class sizes for “regular” students. Can you link back to your source?
Can you also explain why small classes for my foster son shouldn’t really count as small classes?
LikeLike
The national ratio of students to teachers in public schools fell between 1980 and 2008, from 17.6 to 15.8 students per teacher, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. However, because the statistics count special education and other specialized teachers who normally have much smaller classes than regular classroom teachers do, the U.S. Department of Education estimates the current average class size is closer to 25 students (Sparks, 2010).
http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/class-size/index.html
Sparks, S.D., “Class Sizes Show Signs of Growing,” Education Week, Nov. 24, 2010.
LikeLike
And anything more than 25 becomes absurd. At 25, that gives one 1.8 minutes per student in a normal 45-minute middle- or high-school class. So, if you “flipped” the class, as Deformers are so fond of suggesting, and spent the period walking around helping kids with work, you would have less than 2 minutes per kid at the current national average regular class size. But the Deformers think that’s too few and that “class size doesn’t matter.” Sure, I can lecture to an amphitheater with 3,000 people in it, but they are not going to get much individual attention, are they?
LikeLike
So it is not that class size dropped for spec ed students, it’s because legislation created special classes for students in special populations, and teachers were added to the rolls to teach those kids.
LikeLike
What you read on this blog is hardly the “dominant” narrative, TE. But just wait a while. When Ed Deform totally blows up in people’s faces, it will be.
LikeLike
The dominant narrative on this blog, not in society.
LikeLike
You clearly know that that figure, pulled out of the air with no explanation, seems to suggest that there are much smaller student/teacher ratios now and that teachers have it easy. But the fact is that those ratios have fluctuated a bit up and down throughout that period but have remained fairly constant and the increase in the raw number of teachers is due almost entirely to the addition of legislatively mandated special education classes. I GET REALLY SICK OF THIS KIND OF MISUSE OF STATISTICS BY THE PROPONENTS OF “Data-driven decision making.”
Freaking numerologists and liars.
LikeLike
Get me the ratios for the “normal” student classes. I did a quik search, linked to my sources. I assume you can do the same.
LikeLike
But this happens ALL THE TIME in Deform Data La La Land.
OUR SCHOOLS ARE FAILING!!!! LOOK AT THOSE PISA SCORES.
Well, if you look at them by socioeconomic level, our students are close to or at the top at every grade level in every subject.
THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS HAS DOUBLED IN 30 YEARS!!! CLASS SIZES ARE TOO SMALL!!!!
Well, class sizes for teachers of regular-track students are pretty much what they were 30 years ago, but since then, lots and lots of teachers have been added to teach MANDATED special education classes.
THESE TEACHERS ALL NEED TO BE FIRED! JUST LOOK AT THEIR STUDENTS’ TEST SCORES!!!!
Well, study after study has shown little or no relationship between teacher quality as independently measured and increases or decreases, from year to year, in students’ test standardized test scores. And the state standardized testing instruments have not themselves been independently validated to prove that they measure what the purport to be measuring.
But these people–these deformers–never stop talking about their data data data data data.
These are not people doing data-based decision making. These are people making crap up to advance a political and business agenda.
LikeLike
Robert,
Did I make any of the claims that you are complaining about in my posts?
LikeLike
Special education is an unfunded mandate. If it drains money from non special ed and increases class size and freezes teacher salaries, maybe that’s no big deal.
But, as charter schools start to take the average per pupil funding without providing the same proportion of special ed, it drains money from public schools and kills them, which is a big deal.
LikeLike
To just add onto your comments, TC, the cities with a large number of impoverished families, often have children who need special services, including, but not limited to special education classes. When those costs are factored in (and some of those services, such as speech, OT, and PT are paid for with federal or state funds), it raises the over all price to educate each child to a much larger amount than the neighboring suburban districts. Thus Buffalo’s cost of educating children is over $20,000 a year and the other districts are a lesser amount. These numbers make it look like Buffalo is not getting good results and that more money will not solve the problems. Yet, the amount actually being used in the classroom is much less than the numbers imply.
There is no comparison between Williamsville and Buffalo. Williamsville has an excellent program with all the extras, while in Buffalo many schools lacks computer teachers, social workers, school psychologists, teacher assistants, high school electives, full time librarians, assistant principals, foreign language teachers, on occasion substitute teachers . . . In other words, all the extras have been eliminated in order to save money, not because they weren’t needed, but because they were not mandated (in spite of the high computed average cost per student).
LikeLike
52/15,880 is how I post my comments on education at Oped, because what you say here is the way it is… no 2 sitricts are the same… but the OBJECTIVES FRO ALL STATES must be classrooms where learning is supported, and where it can be recognized, not merely measured.
LikeLike
Thanks TE, and Robert, always a good discussion and I learn a lot.
LikeLike
So why are your foster son’s classes small? How is this not anecdotal? Why does this dominate your concerns to the point of making it a primary focus? We could all find anecdotal exceptions. What is best for the most students? That is more important.
LikeLike
My foster son has a variety of learning disabilities and was in the sped classes that Robert speaks of as soaking up the extra teaching resources. It is Robert that is making the argument that those classes are small, not me.
I do think that public schools often think about what is best for most students. That is why the Federal Government has forced public schools to think more about what is good for all students and why I think school differentiation and school choice is a good idea.
LikeLike
I agree TE. And I feel we should not begrudge any child an education. Some children, such as the ones you and I have, need that extra attention. I live in a fantastic school district which bent over backwards to provide my son with all the services he needed to enhance his educational experience. There is a reason it is repeatedly the top school district in the area. In the teacher contract, the class size in the elementary schools is no more than twenty five students. Special ed classes are limited to 8, 12, or 15 (with a teacher aide) depending on the child’s IEP.
Contrast that with the city schools where I worked. Their elementary class limit is 30 with extra pay for days the class size is over that number. Now you might think that the teachers would like the extra money, but I have never heard a teacher complain that they had too FEW kids in their class. No, they would prefer to have a class of no more than 25.
Another consideration is that the city students have a greater need than their suburban counterparts. Yet, they have less services.
If you really want to give those urban children a boost, I would suggest smaller class sizes, a teacher assistant for each classroom, and the appropriate support teams to help them in any area they are lacking. Someone mentioned helping children in seventh and ninth grade so they will have a better chance of graduating. I say start young, make sure they get in the habit of coming to school and doing their homework daily, model behaviors which foster listening skills, following direction, and paying attention in class. Feed them (literally and figuratively), provide warmth and comfort, and nurture them.
This is what education is all about.
LikeLike
and the money would be there if the loopholes for taxation were closed!
Read the data this man collected: “$7.6 trillion — 8 percent of the world’s personal financial wealth — is stashed in tax havens. If all of this illegally hidden money were properly recorded and taxed, global tax revenues would grow by more than $200 billion a year”
LikeLike
I just explained that public schools looked at what was best for a wide range of students and created, during that period, special education classes. I never said that those classes were “soaking up resources.” I SUPPORT the creation of those classes. I simply said that when Education Deformers through out this stat, which they do all the time, about the teaching force having grown so dramatically, they never point out WHY because that would undermine their narrative: that public school teachers today are underworked and overpaid and should have larger classes.
LikeLike
C’mon, Bob.
You are getting sucked into this, and why waste your amazing intellect on TE . . . . ?
Maybe the intellectual sparring is something you enjoy, and I am never one to oppose that. But this is just a friendly gentle reminder that if you spend too much time with TE and others like him, you could be losing time doing things that would get you along further and faster.
Of course, if you were to debate publicly TE in front of a broad, wide audience, I’d say spend as much time as you’d like.
That would be a boring match with little to no competition . . . . . But I enjoy a good slaughter now and then.
LikeLike
I agree. I see the value of all this conversation, but getting really active would make the difference. Outrage here does not move into the mainstream. Debate and conversation are the mainstays of our democracy, but it is lost when it does not appear where the masses can see it.
LikeLike
TE,
Is noodling legal in Kansas?
LikeLike
Here is a list of states where it is legal:
http://www.basspro1source.com/index.php/component/k2/9-catfishing/745-5-things-you-must-know-before-you-start-noodling/745-5-things-you-must-know-before-you-start-noodling
LikeLike
Thanks for the info!
LikeLike
The corporate attack on teachers just builds and builds. Tenure just ensures “a fair trial” and nothing more. And of course with the “new evaluations” that spit out numbers and determine teachers to be “ineffective” in an anonymous but supposedly “objective” fashion, teachers have no control over their destiny no matter how superb they are at their jobs. So I wonder why the corporate world makes all the fuss over “tenure”. After all, a seasoned teacher with all kinds of teaching awards and much non testing success (real learning) can certainly be fired with ease under this new “evaluation” system. The tests get more and more nonsensical and more impossible to understand let alone to pass. Students do poorly and teachers get “ineffectives”. After a few years in a row of “ineffectives”… tenure or not, they are fired. Sickening. And our mainstream media continues to drive the nail in the coffin. I just read the recent issue of The Economist, June 14th-20th. On page 12 an article in the “American Politics” section entitled, “Be Brave, Republicans” has a paragraph, “Wages, Work & Welfare” that begins with the following:
“…America needs a decent opposition – one which argues for unleashing the country’s entrepreneurial side, not for the urgency of arming teachers…”
NEED I SAY MORE
LikeLike
My last sentence got cut off!
How disrespectful of teachers and of students to to make such a statement! Hideous really.
LikeLike
Since the Vergara decision there have been multiple comments made across multiple posts (including this one) implying or stating outright that the elite are comfortable with having non-tenured and inexperienced teachers teach other people’s kids, but not their own.
Here is a fast facts page from the website of the Horace Mann School in New York City, which is where the elite of the elite send their children to school, and where the parents of 84% of the students pay full tuition ($41,150 this year, plus about $1,000 in mandatory fees). http://www.horacemann.org/page.cfm?p=137
**23% of Horace Mann’s classroom teaching faculty do not have a graduate degree of any kind.**
If you click through to individual faculty profiles, you’ll see that these BA-only faculty are spread evenly throughout all divisions of the school and all academic areas–IOW, they aren’t just gym teachers or preschool assistant teachers, e.g.
While I chose Horace Mann as an example because they have made this information easily digestible, a quick survey of other high-end NYC private schools that have publicly accessible faculty CVs shows they also employ a sizable number of teachers who do not have a master’s degree in education or any other subject.
Food for thought (naw, who am I kidding).
LikeLike
Can you research and get back to us on whether or not they have CCS, NWEA MAP, PARCC, SBAC, SLO’s, IAGD’s, VAM etc? Thanks. Oh and check Sidwell friends in DC and Lakeside in Seattle.
LikeLike
I thought you were reading a good book Linda.
LikeLike
I am. I couldn’t resist. Waiting for the research. Goodnight
LikeLike
Tim,
What are the class sizes at Horace Mann?
LikeLike
14
LikeLike
They are very, very small. When you don’t have any English language learners or special education students, or really hardly any students who aren’t exceptionally bright, and when you can hire non-credentialed teachers on an at-will basis and provide them with a total compensation package that costs far less than the public schools, you can get a lot for your money.
I don’t begrudge Horace Mann families a thing, though. In about 90 days, more than a handful of Horace Mann seniors are going to suffer the abject horrors of class sizes of up to 1000 students! http://www.justiceharvard.org/about/course/
LikeLike
Education for the children of the elite. Special classes at Harvard.
Common Core worksheets on a screen for the children of the proles.
Sickening.
LikeLike
34 of the 120 faculty at the Horace Mann School have doctorates. The average class size is 14. The main campus is located on 18 acres. It has a nature laboratory and an outdoor education center located on 100 acres in Washington, Connecticut.
LikeLike
22 out of 240 teachers have doctorates, Bob.
No one ever said that Horace Mann wasn’t an elite, rarefied institution. A lot of people have insinuated that the people who send their kids to Horace Mann and elite schools like it would never tolerate the prospect of non-credentialed, non-tenured, “teach for a while” faculty teaching their own kids.
LikeLike
Click to access HM_School_Profile_2013-14.pdf
32 of them in 2013-14.
I found that when I checked it again. The 34 number was from a Horace Mann School profile from 2010-11.
LikeLike
32 of 103 teaching faculty, Tim, in 2013-14:
Click to access HM_School_Profile_2013-14.pdf
LikeLike
Oh, and the average class size has gone up from 14 to 16.
LikeLike
So, 77 percent of the Horace Mann school staff have a master’s degree or higher. How does that compare to schools nationwide?
52 percent have a master’s or higher degree or higher.
So, you are just wrong about this, Tim.
LikeLike
I don’t know how it compares nationally, but in New York State, the upshot is that essentially all public school teachers need to have a master’s degree or be on the way to acquiring one: http://www.highered.nysed.gov/tcert/certificate/relatedmasters.html
One almost wonders if these elite private K-12 schools aren’t taking advantage of this by hiring smart graduates of good colleges who want to teach, but who don’t want to spend the time or money on acquiring a master’s degree.
LikeLike
Those are the national stats, Tim.
LikeLike
Tim.. how many students come to the Horace Mann School every day from homeless shelters ? How many students are hungry due to not having eaten dinner the night before when they come to the Horace Mann school each day? How many new students enter or how many leave a class on a monthly basis at the Horace Mann School? How many students have never visited a science or art museum or have never taken a family vacation who attend the Horace Mann School? How many students have never traveled out of their district let alone their state who attend the Horace Mann School? Just thinking here that students at the Horace Mann School probably learn a heck of a lot from their home lives and school is the icing on the cake. The same cannot be said for our nation’s title one students who lack so much contextual knowledge that is so crucial to learning! Teachers face nearly insurmountable obstacles at every turn and yet continue to teach out of passion for the profession. I found my education in education to be extremely helpful in learning to help students who have a lot of poverty related issues THAT GET IN THE WAY OF LEARNING. So I would not be so quick to denigrate the group of teachers who pursued their master’s degrees in education. One of those experienced Horace Mann teachers would have a very challenging year if he/she stepped into an urban title one school and tried to teach in the same fashion as he/she is accustomed.
LikeLike
A very astute observation. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Or watch out for the domino effect.
So, if tenure is kaput, how will that effect the future of education?
In the Buffalo Public Schools, for various reasons, there are what is known as temporary teachers. Temporary teachers are not on a tenure tract. And the word temporary is a misnomer, since teachers can be temps for years. The positive aspect is that residency requirements for probationary (tenure tract) or contract (Buffalo’s version of tenure) teachers does not apply. Technically, since temps are not guaranteed a job in September, they qualify for unemployment benefits (although the district tries to get around this by sending them assurance letters) Temp teachers apply anyway because there is no guarantee of a future job, sometimes even for contract teachers, if the position is eliminated. However, temps have no seniority so they are the first to be let go when the district downsizes.
My point is that some temporary teachers remain on the job year after year because their services are needed. Eventually they might become probationary and then contract, but some prefer to remain temps. It is easier for a temp to switch to a different district or even a different career, then someone intrenched in the system )(I.e. A contract teacher).
So tenure protects the teacher, but it also provides the district with a reliable source of staffing. Can you imagine replacing entire faculties each year. It would be bedlam. And what about administrators? Would there be a new principal each year as well?
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out there might be some serious side effects to the implementation of this ruling.
Just saying, you might regret that you got what you wished for.
LikeLike
The disrespect for teachers is rampant, as Peter green showed. The false narrative in this is 2 decades old, and it has become the consensus. Those who remember what school was like in the forties and the fifties when it worked to enable the middle class, are gone, replaced by a generation that was told that anyone can teach,and that teachers get summers off and big salaries of redoing nothing.
I get the American Educator. it sin’t as if the authentic solutions are not out there.
“THEY” do not want an educated electorate, and thus they do not want teachers who know how to enable learning.
and I know this seems like a nonsequitor, but here is a child… a very young mind… and we teachers get this emergent intelligent a few years later. The serious side effects of the current war on education means that she will never develop the potential she shows here… go to the end, and watch her grasp the orchestras moment.
LikeLike
After a violent incident, if it’s bad enough, the students get a formal suspension for six weeks and are sent back to the same school, otherwise a three to five day suspension. The teacher, however, can press charges. Jail time is a legal absence. Ankle bracelets are not uncommon.
And the teacher is responsible to make sure they pass their exams, even if they are not in school.
I don’t think this is what Harlan means when he talks about abandoning Mandatory Attendance Policies.
LikeLike