When we talk about educating all, we usually mean educating all. But as Caleb Rossiter points out, educating all is a mighty challenge when so many children are so woefully unprepared and unmotivated. Caleb quit his job in a charter school because he was asked to raise scores that were undeserved. But now he has a habit of speaking with candor about kids who have no interest in what is happening in the classroom.
In this post, he writes about his experience with KIPP, and he has much to say about the misuse of standardized testing and gaming the system.
But what bothers him most is that our society has no real plans for the kids who don’t do homework, don’t do classwork, and don’t care much about learning in school.
KIPP is part of the national turning away from vocational high schools and a boosting of watered-down college prep for students who lack the interest or skills to be successful. From presidents down to principals there is a silly insistence that college is the holy grail in a country with probably a 75 percent true high school graduation rate, 50 percent drop-out rates in poor areas, and most poor students so far behind by 9th grade that success in college is extremely unlikely until later in their lives. Many kids would benefit from having a real choice for a high school education, like the one we provide in upstate New York through the BOCES vocational half-day schools, that graduated them to be successful electricians, plumbers, cosmetologists, computer technicians, nurse’s aides, and carpenters.
KIPP also is part of the bleeding of the public schools of money and talent by charters, which Diane Ravitch points out, en bloc, at the macro level of system change, have no better record than public schools when properly compared on the education of the same families and kids. But I know that charters, good and bad, fraudulent and purposeful, are here to stay, and more are coming all the time.
Reading Jay’s book right after Diane’s new book on the Privatization movement was unsettling. She focuses on showing how income and education level of parents is still the primary driver of outcomes in schools — and for me, she still misses the special challenges of Post-traumatic Slave Syndrome and Currently-traumatized Segregation Syndrome that are peculiar to the progeny of the peculiar institution. Jay focuses on how better achievement can be coaxed out of the situation. I’d like to see the two of them get together to make some joint proposals!
I am not so sure about the “Post-traumatic Slave Syndrome and Currently-traumatized Segregation Syndrome.” But maybe Caleb knows more than I do from his experiences in the schools of D.C.
I share Caleb’s distrust of standardized testing; it has become part of the problem, rather than an answer or even a reliable measure. Somehow I think that if we expect to solve our biggest social problems, we have to come up with better answers for those kids who don’t care. They are the kids who fail and fail and fail. Kicking them out of charter schools and magnet schools may feel right to the schools that exclude them, but it doesn’t answer the larger questions. What will happen to them? What will happen to our society if we continue to ignore their fate? What kind of society are we if we think we can forget them?

What will happen to them? Simple – we need bodies filling up those for-profit prisons/
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and the never ending wars of aggression!
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This really is the conversation that needs to take place. These kids are very familiar to many of us and yes, they are traumatized everything…generations of trauma. Combine the bio-chemistry of their trauma with a bottom-up view of our current economic arrangement and there really is not much to care about. Maybe they can’t articulate the social dynamic but they do understand it somewhere in their bones. One day an angry homeless boy gave it go just before he was shipped off to a “facility” by telling me that his circumstances were all about the Illuminati. He didn’t mean it as an excuse but as an analysis. He had never related to a practicing plumber, cosmetologist or electrician so he could not imagine a life beyond his present circumstances which were dire and dangerous.
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I think this is why having a strong pre-K program and engaging children when they are younger is so important. From my experience, even children up to 3rd grade who are not interested can be engaged with hands on learning. It’s the older kids that seem to be really hard to get involved in learning. I think we would really increase our chances of keeping them interested in education if they were involved starting at a young age and that may then continue through adulthood.
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“. . . increase our chances of keeping them interested in education. . .” by eliminating standardized testing and the sorting and separating of students through various “grading” schemes that serve to inculcate/brain wash young children to believe that they are an “A” student or an “F” student through all the variations of labeling students.
Eliminate grading!
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From the article:
“The cheating scandal in Atlanta, the Houston non-miracle perpetrated by Rod Paige, the erasure scandal that Jay himself has been instrumental in keeping in view in DCPS – these to me are not the real scandal: the acceptance of standardized tests the metric for teacher and school effectiveness is.”
Exactly, Caleb, exactly! And what is it that enables these standardized tests to be the supposed metric? Common Core Stalinistic Standards-CCSS! Standards and testing are two sides of the same coin and can never be separated without destroying the coin of the “Rhealm” (that fantasy land of educational excellence).
And from Diane:
“I share Caleb’s distrust of standardized testing; it has become part of the problem, rather than an answer or even a reliable measure.”
And, Diane you are correct to “distrust standardized testing” as it most definitely cannot ever be “even a reliable measure” as shown by Noel Wilson in “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700
Any and everyone associated with education should read and understand this never rebutted nor refuted brilliant destruction of educational standards and standardized testing. I challenge all you supporters of these educational malpractices, those who think we can “measure” the teaching and learning process, and all you GAGAers, to disprove what Wilson has shown. Read the following but then read the real study to see just how completely absurd these malpractices are. Ten bucks to a dollar that no one can refute what Wilson has proven.
Brief outline of Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” and some comments of mine. (updated 6/24/13 per Wilson email)
1. A quality cannot be quantified. Quantity is a sub-category of quality. It is illogical to judge/assess a whole category by only a part (sub-category) of the whole. The assessment is, by definition, lacking in the sense that “assessments are always of multidimensional qualities. To quantify them as one dimensional quantities (numbers or grades) is to perpetuate a fundamental logical error” (per Wilson). The teaching and learning process falls in the logical realm of aesthetics/qualities of human interactions. In attempting to quantify educational standards and standardized testing we are lacking much information about said interactions.
2. A major epistemological mistake is that we attach, with great importance, the “score” of the student, not only onto the student but also, by extension, the teacher, school and district. Any description of a testing event is only a description of an interaction, that of the student and the testing device at a given time and place. The only correct logical thing that we can attempt to do is to describe that interaction (how accurately or not is a whole other story). That description cannot, by logical thought, be “assigned/attached” to the student as it cannot be a description of the student but the interaction. And this error is probably one of the most egregious “errors” that occur with standardized testing (and even the “grading” of students by a teacher).
3. Wilson identifies four “frames of reference” each with distinct assumptions (epistemological basis) about the assessment process from which the “assessor” views the interactions of the teaching and learning process: the Judge (think college professor who “knows” the students capabilities and grades them accordingly), the General Frame-think standardized testing that claims to have a “scientific” basis, the Specific Frame-think of learning by objective like computer based learning, getting a correct answer before moving on to the next screen, and the Responsive Frame-think of an apprenticeship in a trade or a medical residency program where the learner interacts with the “teacher” with constant feedback. Each category has its own sources of error and more error in the process is caused when the assessor confuses and conflates the categories.
4. Wilson elucidates the notion of “error”: “Error is predicated on a notion of perfection; to allocate error is to imply what is without error; to know error it is necessary to determine what is true. And what is true is determined by what we define as true, theoretically by the assumptions of our epistemology, practically by the events and non-events, the discourses and silences, the world of surfaces and their interactions and interpretations; in short, the practices that permeate the field. . . Error is the uncertainty dimension of the statement; error is the band within which chaos reigns, in which anything can happen. Error comprises all of those eventful circumstances which make the assessment statement less than perfectly precise, the measure less than perfectly accurate, the rank order less than perfectly stable, the standard and its measurement less than absolute, and the communication of its truth less than impeccable.”
In other word all the logical errors involved in the process render any conclusions invalid.
5. The test makers/psychometricians, through all sorts of mathematical machinations attempt to “prove” that these tests (based on standards) are valid-errorless or supposedly at least with minimal error [they aren’t]. Wilson turns the concept of validity on its head and focuses on just how invalid the machinations and the test and results are. He is an advocate for the test taker not the test maker. In doing so he identifies thirteen sources of “error”, any one of which renders the test making/giving/disseminating of results invalid. As a basic logical premise is that once something is shown to be invalid it is just that, invalid, and no amount of “fudging” by the psychometricians/test makers can alleviate that invalidity.
6. Having shown the invalidity, and therefore the unreliability, of the whole process Wilson concludes, rightly so, that any result/information gleaned from the process is “vain and illusory”. In other words start with an invalidity, end with an invalidity (except by sheer chance every once in a while, like a blind and anosmic squirrel who finds the occasional acorn, a result may be “true”) or to put in more mundane terms crap in-crap out.
7. And so what does this all mean? I’ll let Wilson have the second to last word: “So what does a test measure in our world? It measures what the person with the power to pay for the test says it measures. And the person who sets the test will name the test what the person who pays for the test wants the test to be named.”
In other words it measures “’something’ and we can specify some of the ‘errors’ in that ‘something’ but still don’t know [precisely] what the ‘something’ is.” The whole process harms many students as the social rewards for some are not available to others who “don’t make the grade (sic)” Should American public education have the function of sorting and separating students so that some may receive greater benefits than others, especially considering that the sorting and separating devices, educational standards and standardized testing, are so flawed not only in concept but in execution?
My answer is NO!!!!!
One final note with Wilson channeling Foucault and his concept of subjectivization:
“So the mark [grade/test score] becomes part of the story about yourself and with sufficient repetitions becomes true: true because those who know, those in authority, say it is true; true because the society in which you live legitimates this authority; true because your cultural habitus makes it difficult for you to perceive, conceive and integrate those aspects of your experience that contradict the story; true because in acting out your story, which now includes the mark and its meaning, the social truth that created it is confirmed; true because if your mark is high you are consistently rewarded, so that your voice becomes a voice of authority in the power-knowledge discourses that reproduce the structure that helped to produce you; true because if your mark is low your voice becomes muted and confirms your lower position in the social hierarchy; true finally because that success or failure confirms that mark that implicitly predicted the now self evident consequences. And so the circle is complete.”
In other words students “internalize” what those “marks” (grades/test scores) mean, and since the vast majority of the students have not developed the mental skills to counteract what the “authorities” say, they accept as “natural and normal” that “story/description” of them. Although paradoxical in a sense, the “I’m an “A” student” is almost as harmful as “I’m an ‘F’ student” in hindering students becoming independent, critical and free thinkers. And having independent, critical and free thinkers is a threat to the current socio-economic structure of society.
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Duane, good post. TY. I agree.
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And since no one can logically refute/rebut what Wilson has proven:
WHY THE HELL DO WE CONTINUE THESE ABSURD AND DAMNING EDUCATIONAL MALPRACTICES????
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As a parent, reading this post I felt like the students and implicitly the parents, are being blamed for low test scores and grades.
Our K.12 system sorts children on the basis of birth year, not their stage of intellectual development. Such a system is impossible for some children. Add poverty and things are worse.
Blaming the system and fixing the system would be more productive.
I don’t think the fix to the junk science of sorting by birth year is to have students sit at computers all day with individualized computer programs.
Middle and upper class families can afford private schools that can individualize learning for students whose brains don’t fit the sort by birth year system.
But I totally agree that vocational programs need to expand.
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“Middle and upper class families can afford private schools that can individualize learning for students whose brains don’t fit the sort by birth year system.”
No, most private schools don’t offer those types of special ed services. It’s the public schools that do, and I’ve seen many public school districts do so on an hourly, daily, weekly, year in and year out basis. My own children went through one such public system. I’ve taught in a couple.
What is preventing the public schools from continuing and bettering a grand tradition of serving all students (at least in theory and pretty much put into practice since the 70’s) is the concepts of educational standards and the accompanying high stakes standardized testing. Nothing has bastardized American (sic) public education as much as those educational malpractice atrocities.
Are these systems perfect? No, but there is no such thing as perfection (that’s for you Bernie1815!!) other than in the mind of man which doesn’t necessarily coincide with what is outside the mind of man
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I did not state all private schools.
Do you not think that Churchill, Miriam, Edgewood, etc. Cannot serve special ed students? A number of public school districts send students there as purchase of service contracts.
The high stakes testing is destroying education, I agree.
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Private, public, choice and chance as long as they are in the testing fiasco will fail. I look specifically at Montessori schools that take kids from where they are. The issue is not WHO, but WHAT. see our books at http://www.wholechildreform.com for solutions
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In Einstein’s .my favorite brilliance.. ……said all that needs to be said…
Quote 1
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Quote 2
Robert Shepherd posted this earlier..
I believe in standardizing automobiles. I do not believe in standardizing human beings. Standardization is a great peril which threatens American culture.”
—— Albert Einstein, Saturday Evening Post interview, 10/26/1929″
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easily said, but how do we do it? see my post
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I certainly wasn’t suggesting that engaging them young was a complete solution. I think children that are engaged early tend to remain engaged, but the standardized tests also make it harder to keep them interested. I agree we should get rid of them too. I was in grad school with someone who went to a college that didn’t have a grading system, but instead had evaluations that pointed out their strengths and weaknesses and how to address them. Admittedly I’m not extremely familiar with this system, but it seemed to work well for her, and I imagine it could work well in our education system.
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When will we ever learn? Kids who fail and fail and fail do so because our system of failure is broken. How many decades will we keep doing the same thing until we realize the system must change? How many decades will we keep pushing kids into the streets where they become invisible, not counted on the proficiency rates nor the graduation rates? It is time to get the guts to face reality and allow for the system to change rather than fighting the ego motivated line of crap we see today.
Just think for a minute. We have an education system that is controlled from above, NOT ALLOWING INNOVATION! How stupid is that. A system that does not allow systemic innovation.
Am sick of talking into the air. Even those who say they support kids follow the lemmings into the sea, drowning in a tsunomi of idiotic locked in standards. Even those supporting public education refuse to advocate for an alternative that supports all children. When will we ever learn that this is the only way! http://savingstudents-caplee.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-personal-map-to-success.html
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That is “fighting for the Ego…”
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proposals begin w assessment http://savingstudents-caplee.blogspot.com/2013/12/accountability-with-honor-and-yes-we.html
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I agree with neanderthal and Rossiter that our myopic focus on turning kids into college candidates is misguided. Human excellence does not come in just one variety.
That said, I think we could do a much better job of giving all of our kids a solid liberal arts education. . What’s the conventional fix for failing kids? Throw these kids in “intervention” classes where they drill skills. The classes don’t work, but we keep them anyway because we don’t know what else to do. I agree with E.D. Hirsch’s diagnosis of the problem: the falling kids have a knowledge deficit, not a skills deficit. How about trying this outside-the-box idea: intensifying knowledge transmission for chronically failing kids? More read-alouds, more educational videos, more juicy lecturing about this fascinating world we live in? Over time I bet this would have better results than our current failed approaches.
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With more school being for more school being for more school, one wonders if our leaders have any idea of the fundamental purpose of education. As for more dumpoing of knowledge into the heads of failing kids, first we must make learning real and second we must wait for those not blossoming as fast.
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“first we must make learning real”
Can you give us some examples that will work?
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Disadvantaged/neglected kids suffer nearly irreparable language and knowledge deficits. Programs that provide enrichment and immersion would be money better spent than remedial/AIS math and ELA classes. Ponderosa you are a lone voice of sanity on this issue.
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I know two white men, raised in an upper middle-class environment. They both finished law school, but did not want to become lawyers. They both became handymen and are very happy with their current work. They had the mental skills to know when to leave in order to do what they loved. What about those children who do not have those advantages? And no access to hands-on vocational or other “non-academic” curricula? What chance do they have of emerging from the abusive, soul-killing, one-size-had-better-fit-all regimen that we educators are being forced to shove down their throats? This is state-mandated child abuse.
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Caleb stated, “Somehow I think that if we expect to solve our biggest social problems, we have to come up with better answers for those kids who don’t care. They are the kids who fail and fail and fail. Kicking them out of charter schools and magnet schools may feel right to the schools that exclude them, but it doesn’t answer the larger questions. What will happen to them? What will happen to our society if we continue to ignore their fate? What kind of society are we if we think we can forget them?”
John Dewey and other Constructivists have the answer: teach the child not the curriculum. In other words if you relate new concepts to the child, his background, and interest, the teacher will captured the student’s attention and motivate the student. Students give up when they are overwhelmed, see no purpose and have no interest in what they are asked to do. They must experience the joy of being challenged and rewarded with success. It takes a clever, observant and creative teacher to meet those needs – scripted text won’t do it. That is why a good teacher is worth his/her weight in gold. Nothing succeeds like success and nothing will turn a students off more quickly then when they are convinced the can’t learn and that they are only a number. Standardized test serve no purpose except to thwart the apprehensive learner.
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Thanks for bringing us back to the basics!
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I agree with McVicker2 that early ed needs to be ‘hands on’– as D Swacker says, that can be accomplished by rolling back the increased testing– & Charlotte Vrooman et al that a return to public vo-tech opportunities is a crying need. Rossiter brags in his paper about Ithaca’s [also my home area](’70’s-era) BOCES– does he know that Cuomo’s ed cuts have put Albany- & Watertown-area BOCES in desperate straits– that Ithaca has closed one campus to save rent despite 1-2% annual increase in enrollment? My wealthy NJ-area county vo-tech has a wonderful program, but from what I read this is a rarity in US. We really need to reframe the narrative here, in view of today’s job scene. College for all?? Industrial arts in middle school & a robust 1/2-day county vo-tech, when combined with a hs diploma, will keep many hands-on types in school & give them a leg up on a middle-class lifestyle.
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We do need to get away from the belief that success is defined by whether you go to college or not. I remember watching a guy maneuver a little bobcat under a building to dig out a basement for a part of the structure that had been supported only on disintegrating pilings. He was an artist and still the go to person in his 50s-60s. He ran a very successful excavation business and never set foot inside a college. From all reports, we are probably not in need of more college graduates. We will always need people who find the thought of sitting at a desk for forty or so years less than exciting, but will spend hours at a time pulling wires or welding pipes. We need people who take pride in a job well done that lets them go home and be good husbands and wives and parents without worrying about whether they can pay the mortgage or make the rent. There are so many interesting people out there who are defined by far more than what they do for a living.
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This is so true. Lately there have been stories about all the young lawyers that can’t find jobs in their. I had a neighbor that had been laid off from his architect job three times in one year. Talk about discouraging. We need hairdressers, plumbers, locksmiths, bakers, etc. All the people who do meaningful, unsung work. People who have marketable skills that can support them and their families.
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From the perspective of an informed and sympathetic outsider (Australian) it is impossible to underestimate the damage done by the racial inequality that still blights American life.
Any amount of research from quite diverse disciplines (anthropology through to psychology) points to the effects of feeling isolated and excluded on motivation, decisionmaking and attainment. You can try to fix the individual kids, and teachers have a lot to offer to break down the barriers but really you going to have to work hard at fixing the system. Trouble is the neocons are blowing the racist dog whistle as hard as they can to keep conditions ripe for their pursuing their own benefits.
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