The New York Times has a predictable editorial about gifted students, referring to PISA scores as evidence of failure and complaining that educators are not nurturing the talents of the best and brightest students.
What is notable about the editorial is what is missing:
1. Little to nothing about budget cuts that have devastated most state and district education budgets in recent years.
2. Little to nothing about the billions diverted to standardized testing, which does not encourage gifted students.
3. Nothing about the appalling poverty rates that crush the spirits of gifted students who are living in terrible circumstances. Perhaps the Times should think about their recent series about a homeless child (“Invisible Child”) in New York City, likely very gifted, but living in abject squalor.
4. Not a word about the resurgence of racial segregation, which dims the hopes of children of color.
5. Frankly, the editorial’s assumption that nations with the highest test scores contain the most gifted students is dubious. There is no evidence that the test scores of 15 year olds predict anything about the future economy or the future winners of Nobel prizes.
Once again, the New York Times editorial board demonstrates the limits and pitfalls of conventional wisdom.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
They also limit your reply to 150 words. The editorial is absurd. They are not interested in people’s replies, they are just harvesting e-mail addresses.
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The reality is that the current system doesn’t allow for gifted students to advance in their areas of strength. When we take kids from where they are, gifted move up their pathway to success at their best rate. Anyone receiving an A today has not been challenged. With a proficiency based system of education, along with individualized action plans, all receive a quality education. Start with a decent assessment http://savingstudents-caplee.blogspot.com/2013/12/accountability-with-honor-and-yes-we.html
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Dear Cap Lee” Are you putting us on?
The blog column you link to ends with this question:
“How do we know when genius will unfold if we lose kids to the street before they blossom?”
Just prior to that, you cite Dr. Ben Carson as one of the “geniuses.”
Ben Carson.
The same Ben Carson who said about running for the presidency as an arch-conservative, “If the Lord grabbed me by the collar and made me do it, I would.”
The same Ben Carson. a physician, who said, “I don’t believe in evolution ….”
The Ben Carson who said the Affordable Care Act was “the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery.”
Sorry dude. Not only is “giftedness” grossly overhyped, but Ben Carson is surely a terrible example of it.
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Truly gifted students, whatever their gifts, are easy to spot. We don’t need PISA or any other standardized test to recognize those who are especially talented. The task is to challenge them and in the process teach them to challenge themselves. Does anyone really think that CCSS is the way to nurture excellence?
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Really? What are the telling signs of “truly gifted students?”
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Depends on the area of giftedness. It usually reveals itself at a young age in the ability to grasp and complete tasks or thoughts independently, and/or in ways that are advanced for their age or entirely unique…the kind of thing that can make the teacher say/think “Wow…I never thought of it like that, but that could work!” It can show up in a variety of ways that are important to their success in contributing to their own advancement in an important area: could be academic, could be social, could be musical/artistic expression. 2old is right, we don’t need PISA. Tests like that are the invention of people with no helpful contribution of their own, other than divert funds and profits by passing judgement and driving policy. We need campaign finance reform, banking and finance reform, absolute transparency in policy, and accountability for those at the top-who failures have been far more burdensome than those below.
The wealthiest driving “reform” have made the mistake of selling and/or buying too heavily into a divine right or social Darwinism (now called Romneyism) outlook: believing the they are either “chosen” or more evolved and adapted for school and life success. They know better, and cling tightly to their lobbyists, lawyers, trust funds, and bibles out of fear for the many many many people tired of being the scapegoated and starved 47% while the soft, chubby, entitled 1% pull the strings.
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@Dan: don’t we drive that independence and creativity out of kids pretty early on with all the testing? And aren’t an awful lot of little kids “independent” and creative in their play?
So what do truly “gifted” kids look like?
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The older kids get, even GT kids, the more they are indoctrinated into the ways of formal education. They look for the answer the teacher is looking for. A good GT teacher will encourage them to use their imaginations and not give pat answers. Kindergarteners, however, have no shame and blurt out whatever is on their minds that particular moment.
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My district uses Woodcock Johnson III as the test to determine if a student is gifted.
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I think the more important question here is: What does it mean to be “gifted?”
If anyone here has a definitive, all-encompassing answer to that, I will give that person half of my salary for a year.
Thing is, gifted has so many meanings. Our current system tends to narrow the definition of “gifted” to mean “possessing a propensity for creative, divergent” thinking.” This leaves out a strong sense of social intelligence which is a large portion of citizenship, yet “gifted” children, as identified by most schools, tend to have a great deal of conflict socially. Yes, they are not lemmings and conformists, but the most divergent thinkers can be spread onto a very wide spectrum in the area of emotional and social development. To label “gifted” with a narrow focus does not serve these students.
So what’s everyone’s definition of “gifted?”
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I agree that gifted students do have social issues, especially in secondary schools where conformity is valued by their fellow students. It is also very lonely if you do not have anyone to talk to about academic concepts that excite you. I think that is why very strong students are so drawn to schools or programs with other very strong students. They want someone to talk to about the things that excite them.
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The signs are those I mentioned, and yes-the pressure to test and standardize outcomes stifles opportunities to realize and promote gifts and giftedness. The private schools and enriched lives of the wealthy provide those opportunities, and you can plainly see the results. Occasional giftedness realized and utilized, but more often entitled mediocrity protected and promoted.
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Too often, with giftedness comes oddities. I’m not an expert – but I know it when I see it. There is something about a truly gifted child that transcends the norm. Many of the kids in our GT school were smart and creative, even talented, but not what I define as gifted (although they did benefit from all the school had to offer). The gifted kids stood out (and not necessarily in a positive way). Does anyone out there agree?
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Oh, and there also seems to be a connection between the Gifted and Dr Who.
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Yes, I, too, am confused by the term “gifted.” Years ago I thought of it as someone truly out of the ordinary. The sort of kid a teacher might come across once in her lifetime. Maybe.
I remember hearing Sarah Chang’s parents, who are musicians, say that they were not going to start their kid in music early. They changed their mind when, at age 2, Sarah would go from the TV to the piano and bang out the tunes she heard on shows and ads. That’s what I would call gifted. And there is not a lot a regular school can do for kids like that because they are so beyond the ordinary.
It seems like nowadays people use the term “gifted” in a different way – as in, a kid who does well in school and gets mostly A’s. My nieces were in gifted programs, and, although they were great programs, I would often get discouraged because they were getting the type of teaching and projects that those who struggled in school or were turned off to school could really benefit from. Now, instead of extending those great programs to more students, they have been cut.
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I come from the same school of thought where a gifted child was “out of the ordinary.” Funny, but I haven’t seen a bulge in musical prodigies or mathematical whizzes. That is not to say that gifted programs are a farce. That good old bell curve (sorry, Duane) predicts that we will find outliers in any field of endeavor that will benefit from specialized support.
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No two gifted kids are alike – how many Thomas Edison’s were there? Although task commitment (actually an interest which borders on phobia) is a sign if gifted ness, they can be lazy SOBs. And being gifted doesn’t guarantee success. Nor are they all savants. The reason we are having difficulty describing them, as educators, is that none of them come from the same mold. I could look up and give you the written definition, but my multiple experiences over the years defies mere words. One 22 year old student who is in graduate school to become an architect has designed a building which is being updated in downtown Buffalo. Another joined the army. Another just graduated from SUNY at Alfred and cannot find a job – they wouldn’t even hire him at the local book store, yet he is brilliant. Not one could be compared to another. It doesn’t help – but it is a truth.
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“Lazy” is always a sign that the kid should be doing a different thing. And, not always something that available adults can guide them to find. But, often that something once found, is something some adult somewhere can act as a mentor for.
So “lazy” is actually a reliable sign in a way that the situation is *not* optimal, not even close, for this kid.
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So true. We can’t hope to meet all their needs. And lazy is an adult opinion. My young friend who can’t find a job, spent numerous hours creating a light saber a la Star Wars. The result was amazing. Lazy – no job, living at parents home. Amazing – creating items with minutia details which appeal to his unique mindset.
The question is – how do these skills translate into becoming a productive member of society? (His mom is an architect and his dad is a cartoonist).
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How might they use such skills not readily obvious to some of us? –> If the person chooses to use or morph that skill into a job skill or a startup company or as a contractor/consultant to some project.
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We shall see. I will be watching him and the others, out of curiosity and support.
There are a lot of famous, creative people who came from The Buffalo area. (They are the ones in the Bills or Sabers jerseys/caps).
One of Olmsted’s graduates works at the White House as an adviser. We were hoping he could influence President Obama to visit our school. The Principal told me I forbidden to speak to Obama if he came (even then (pre-CC) I was concerned about the direction of education and I really did want to say something to the “big boss”).
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I totally agree. It’s like expecting every child that scored 100 on an IQ test to be the same. The definitions are never totally satisfactory, no matter what populations we are trying to describe. That word, population, should tell us that we are painting with a very broad brush.
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So I did a little digging. There is no global definition of GT, however gifted education has been around since Plato (who tutored exceptional students). The Gifted Society defines it as an individual who demonstrates outstanding competence in one or more domains. Competence meaning exceptional ability to learn or reason and exceptional as a performance or achievement level in the top ten per cent. I can live with that definition.
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Yeah, Sarah sure could play. Her father Min-Soo was my Orch. Lit. professor in undergrad. He brought her to play Mozart at our performance hour when she was still in elementary school. He also hired a Philly Orchestra violinist to practice with her several hours a day. Glad her parents had the foresight to get her the training necessary to hone her talent.
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“Funny, but I haven’t seen a bulge in musical prodigies or mathematical whizzes.”
Well, the thing about “musical prodigies” is they are extremely rare. We’ve all seen the children on TV or YouTube who sing or play an instrument at a higher skill level than than most adults do. Many children have an amazing capacity to absorb particular auditory stimuli. If given the opportunity to be influenced by a masterful musician and placed in a nurturing environment where performance is comfortable, many young children can be trained to perform. Now getting back to the “little miracles” we see in the performance world, often they do not have the ability to understand nuance even if some appear to perform with subtlety. Children are excellent parrots and those with an above average intelligence can and do pick up on the musical personality traits of their instructors which is why music teachers need to be skilled model musicians themselves.
I think the real proof of genius is longevity. Check in with the “prodigies” ten years later and you will see that the majority of them either blend in with other musicians their own age or they stop performing altogether. A “performing monkey” is adorable when it’s little but uninteresting when it becomes an adult. The true prodigies remain at the top of the game throughout their lives even baffling other adults with their genius and innovation.
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Perhaps composition is the key indicator for a musical “prodigy.” In other fields, innovation, creativity, original stuff…..
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Improvisation on a high level is actually quite genius. Not only does the performer need to have the physical skills to perform, but the performer needs a command of performance practice and a complete knowledge of the composition from which he is improvising. There is no time to go back and edit a live improv. Mozart was gifted in both composition and improvisation.
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I believe that if a student is “bright” their mind seeks stimulation naturally. A bright or intelligent child is curious, and wants to know things, asks in depth questions at a young age, reads books, etc. This is not taught by parents or teachers. No one sat me down and told me to read the encyclopedia at a young age. I wanted to learn things. This is a genetic thing, and it exists in all races and groups. Most people in the world are not “bright.” Trying to make millions of children with below 95 I.Q. into college graduates, thinkers, and intellectuals is ridiculous. Many times low I.Q. students can’t relate to or even understand a high I.Q. teacher. People have inherent talents and yes, some people are smarter, some much smarter than other people. Every teacher knows this is true. Some kids get it instantly, and some never do. Some wouldn’t get it, even if they took the class ten years in a row. Let’s be real here. The denial of inherent cognitive differences between people is crazy! Yes, you could test inner city kids with I.Q. tests and put them into magnet schools and try to save those who are capable of being saved. What good does it do for a kid with a I.Q. of 140 to sit next to a anti-social moron of I.Q. 90. It doesn’t help either of them. They used to tell teachers to sit the smart one next to the dumb one, but I have found it never works, builds resentment, etc.
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Dear John,
I hope you are not an educator.
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Say amen, somebody.
My name sake needs some serious reeducation; but, then, again, pure tolerance of such destructive views reeks of an acceptance and tolerance that it does not deserve.
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Ouch. What good does it do to be near someone that’s different….hmmm. I don’t know where to go with that.
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@ellen lol! I JUST had a long talk with my GT class the other day about how much they love Dr. Who! And definately a lot of them have a fondness for goth and Aliester Crowley.
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We need to bolster and let more people enter the middle classes, especially the black middle class.
Gifted classes are a gimmick that is not scientific and doesn’t work.
On the other hand kids should be encouraged to proceed at their own pace, which happens when there is mastery learning.
No child should be labeled an “anti-social moron” much less treated like one. Nor should any child be labeled “gifted”.
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“Gifted” in our city means being able to work about 2 levels above grade and getting to algebra faster. From what I see they are just fast tracking these kids and many of their peers will catch up with them anyway. I don’t see gifted students being exposed to a different curriculum, just the basic work of kids 2 years their senior. Personally, the most gifted people I know aren’t amazing across the board and/or their gifts developed in an unpredictable way. I’m very skeptical about these so-called gifted kids in the magnets. They are no doubt very smart but does being an early reader and having the behavioral qualities to do an hour of homework in kindergarten really mean you are gifted? Am I missing something here?
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In my rather plain vanilla district, the gifted program consist of allowing students to skip grades and work independently on their own projects. If the family can afford it, students are also allowed to take courses at the local university, though these do not count towards high school graduation.
You might look at Fairfax County’s Thomas Jefferson High School. It is a science and technology magnet. The math curriculum allows includes the first two years of university mathematics required of most STEM majors.
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Sometimes those gifted kindergarteners are just early bloomers and not gifted. However, our gifted magnet often provided enrichment activities for all the student, no matter what their label. And the average students were positively impacted by an environment where children devoured learning. This city school was rated number one when adjusted for poverty levels. Their test scores continue to stack up nicely against those in the suburbs. Now I’m talking elementary school. Junior High is a zoo no matter where you live.
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You’ve supported my worst fears about “gifted” programs. Thankfully, when I was in school, all levels were taught together, and at some point those more able simply did more advanced work by their own choices. More advanced book reviews, choosing the harder math classes, etc. A complete lack of “gifted” or advanced classes of any kind whatsoever did not stop me from winning regional scholastic meets in math, physics, scoring a 99% ACT score without any prep, excelling in college. Perhaps the *best* program of any kind for a “gifted” student is to be in a mainstream class, and have free time after they finish their homework in class, so that they can read….. That situation was perfect for me.
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I am a little confused when you that all levels were taught together AND more advanced students choose more advanced mathematics class. Do you mean that all levels were in the same school but not the same classes?
In any case my middle son ran out of science and math classes to take in the high school and left the building to find appropriate classes, so that would add to your fears either way.
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That’s why a GT school is important. If you’re taking Calculus in 11th grade, what do you do in 12th? That’s when you start offering a College Statistics class. A schools curriculum needs to be analyzed and tweaked on a yearly basis to meet the needs of the student population. And if there aren’t enough students in your school to offer a given course – join up with another school and use the technology. We had a tanberg, but you could easily skype. I can see the value of iPads in this case. Lessons could be reinforced with online discussions or even apps. They could also blog. There is no good reason for any child to have a schedule full of study halls.
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To some degree the offerings in my local high school are reasonably limited by the presence of the local university. Most of the very advanced students take the science engineering calculus class at the university and stay on their for math in their senior year of high school.
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I think that’s the point. Each school needs to find the “formula” that’s right for them. The fear is that CCSS will usurp that authority.
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Sorry for the confusing language. I meant that for grades 1-8 all of my fellow students in the same grade were together in 1 of 2 classes (we had about 50 total per grade level). Only from 9th-12th grade were there electives, so that some students could choose to take math every semester for instance, while others took on the minimum required to graduate. So we had no “enrichment” etc. for grades 1-8, and nothing really special either for grades 9-12. The point I wish to make though is that having *free time* is *invaluable* for a gifted kid!
Where would Bill Gates be, for instance, if he did not have enough free time to focus on programming?
See? That’s my real point. Making gifted kids just do more and harder assigned homework, without much freedom to choose — that’s a disaster I think.
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I am not sure it was a good thing, but our local district had no special classes, but does allow students skip grades and do independent studies. The strongest leave the public school classes and attend undergraduate and graduate classes. One student from the local high school was offered admission to a top ranked graduate program in mathematics straight out of high school, though she decided to get a broader education and get an undergraduate degree first.
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More and harder homework is not a good GT program. And there’s such a thing as too much free time.
However, the seniors, who had multiple free periods due to lack of enough electives(a situation that was fixed later in the year), spent a good deal of time bugging me in the library. We were in a small make shift facility with seating for 30. The kids called it the “ghetto” library, but at times 50 of them would cram in, sitting on the counters and on the floor, fighting for one of the twelve computers. The principal didn’t allow food, but they’d sneak in their lunches (and get me in trouble for not enforcing the rules I didn’t agree with). Sometimes they brought their instruments and, if I could get coverage, I’d take them next door to the aud so they could jam. Did they use their free time wisely – some did their HW, some did google searches, some even read a book or magazine, but most of them just wanted to hang out. Some of the most obnoxious ones are the ones who are my Facebook friends.
Wisely is a matter of opinion. None of what they did bothered me. The principal had another point of view.
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Even the socializing isn’t a waste of time. We can’t even guess when a student is “wasting” time, except I think it is likely that when they aren’t genuinely engaged and interested in what they are doing it is time wasted…..
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I envisioned the library as a sanctuary or refuge from the rigors of the school day, the principal wanted it a quiet, scholarly place of peace and quiet. It often morphed from his model to mine. He would say they were wasting time, I would say they were pursuing their passions (albeit noisily at times).
The person that replaced me is a no nonsense kind of guy. I was told nobody wants to go to the library anymore (not even the teachers). Sigh!
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Your library and my classroom would have fit well together although I was dealing with a special ed, non-categorical population which meant everyone who was not severely cognitively impaired or in “lockdown” for behavior. My room was safe until the administration decided that if every second was not devoted to academic tasks, you were wasting valuable instruction time. It was dangerous to laugh or be noisy.
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Too bad administrators have a tendency to stifle instead of encourage. I always loved having the special ed classes in the library, especially for lessons. Library skills are one life lesson which carries over into adulthood. That population would surely benefit from as much time in the LMC as possible.
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Free reading time. An excellent use of free time, but not a gifted program. Just because some schools view gifted as smart kids being accelerated into the next grade level, does not mean those schools have created a gifted program. See my other comments for some ideas on how gifted kids should be treated.
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Harold, the majority of my Former GT students that I correspond with are black. The graduates are all going to college, some are still in high school. Gifted kids come in all races, not just while middle class. I am their biggest booster.
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Harold, this is a little off topic, but I was thinking. Here was my former student, taking the time to chat with me, thanking me for helping him in school, and sharing his life’s goals.
Now that is measurable data. Yet, it wouldn’t be a relevant behavioral objective. My goals were always long term – years in the making – goals which I thought I was achieving, but didn’t necessarily think I’d see happen.
Isn’t that what education is about? Giving our students wings, then watching them fly? Not while they are still students, but after they have left our sphere of influence. How do you write a standard for that?
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As the parent of a gifted child who is now (thank goodness!) an adult long out of school, I can tell you that had she had to go to school now, with all this testing, testing, testing, turmoil and churn, she would have gone completely mad, and–knowing her peers well, I can, with assurance, say the same of them. To begin with, these kids over analyzed EVERY SINGLE THING, and they were highly self-critical. They could handle the yearly Iowa Tests–in fact, they loved them in elementary school, always achieving the highest scores. However, upon reaching middle school age,the adolescent self-doubt set in, and from then through high school (the ACTs, the SATs–and the very new “standardized” tests–the Pear$on Prairie State Achievement Tests), test anxiety took over, much as was described by the retired teacher Mom talking about her sped. child in an earlier post.
I shudder to think what it must be like for some of the current crop of gifted students.
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I think for the most part teenagers ignore tests that are no stakes exams for them. Dr. Ravitch had a comment about how the folks at NAEP could not figure out how to get 17 year olds to take the exam seriously.
I do think that exams that are high stakes for students like class finals, SAT, SAT subject exams and AP exams do cause student stress.
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At least SAT and AP exams are not required of every student.
As far as the Times editorial, this is another phony crisis the corporate edupreneurs are trying to gin up. The real problem is and has always been the savage inequalities pointed out by Jonathan Kozol. More tests and overpriced, mediocre textbooks from the multi-national media conglomerates are not going to solve it.
I would like to see what Bruce D. Barker has to say about the statistics behind this one!
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Baker, not Barker.
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My error!
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No prob, I saw that you had it correct later on in the thread. We all make em!!
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Depends on where you are, Harold. ALL Juniors in the state of Utah are required to take the ACT at the same time. High schools cancel their entire day of school for sophomores and seniors in order to give the test.
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How many people here realize that gifted doesn’t just mean smarter? Although generally gifted kids are, it very often comes at a price paid in other parts of their lives. Don’t let the fact that these kids are smart distract you from the fact that “gifted” is simply another form of special needs. Life is not a bowl of cherries for these kids just because they are smarter.
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I agree that being gifted is a special need, but as it is a special need without the protection of specific legislation and the courts, it is a need that school districts can safely ignore.
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In NYS, gifted is considered part of the special education parents association. Being smart has it’s draw backs. And remember, these are kids, not robots who spew out correct answers on tests. I’ve heard this before – if they don’t move from a 3 to a 4, you aren’t doing your job. Bull!
And just because you are gifted doesn’t mean you are a conformist – in fact, the opposite is true. And your talents might not be paper and pencil. Also, test anxiety is a real issue.
In a local suburban district, the gifted kids were bused to one school for part of the day 2x a week, where they had special classes. I know of several students who opted out. Why? Because they didn’t want to work that hard. It was just extra crap for them. Who wants more homework?
I also think it had to do with being pulled out. Kids don’t want to be singled out, they want to be normal like their friends. My daughter, who had central auditory processing issues, was pulled out for extra help. She hated it and acted out with the resource teacher. In middle school, the speech teacher would push in for Fun Fridays. She would do a lesson for the whole class with content especially for my daughter. Everyone benefited. It was an amazing school. Could they do that today with CCSS?
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I would have hated choosing the “GT” or whatever and then being loaded down with someone else’s (not my own) version of what to study!
The real need of gifted kids I think is opportunity and free time. Schools can indeed help provide opportunities in good measure! For instance, at my just-average K-12 country school, I had the opportunity to finish homework in class and do my own thing. Almost every teacher would allow this once I proved I could do it; so it became okay for me to read novels in class, etc., or a text from something else. I could *not* take the math course, Band, and the Physics course I wanted to one year (Physics was offered on alternating years), so I choose math and band, and then borrowed 4 Physics text books from our science teacher over the next 3-4 months, finishing them all.
See? I had *time* available!
That’s the key!
Where would Bill Gates be for instance if he had not had the free time to focus on programming computers…..
Bill Gates subjected to a “gifted” program could easily be a human tragedy of wasted potential.
Gifted kids need *freedom* of choice.
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My own children were in band and/or chorus. An excellent elective.
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Some of the gifted kids spent time with the art teacher or the instrumental teacher, some loved the Spanish teacher, the old GT teacher who retired, the guidance counselor was also popular (all were great children’s advocates). These kids had plenty of time.
Again, the GT program was not meant to add a lot of extra work. They did a lot of fun things, like create a haunted house for the younger kids on Halloween, participate in the Richmond Speaking Contest, Mock Court, Debate Club, Talent Shows, The Invention Convention, mixed in with some studies, such as a retrospective on a certain decade complete with a culminating display. Now, doesn’t GT sound like something to peak your interest.
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Ellen, the GT you describe does sound good, so long as for instance if a kid wanted to just program computers or compose on the piano, etc., that would be fine.
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In know there was leeway. Several students were given the opportunity to play the piano in front of the class and/or school. Perhaps they practiced in GT class. I know we didn’t have the capabilities of programming, since the computers were controlled by the district, but they did have the ability to create “videos” and other presentations. And creating was an option for various projects.
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Hal, ironically, one of my former students just “talked ” with me on Facebook to let me know how he’s doing. I asked him about Olmsted and he said that he wished there had been an opportunity to pursue his passion to create films. Both the GT teacher and I tried to get this set up, but we didn’t have the equipment, and the downtown tech department talked a good game but came up empty. So, we weren’t able to meet all the needs of this young man, but he was grateful for what we did provide. Anyway, that’s an honest answer – straight from the student’s mouth.
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Human intelligence is not well understood. The so called “gifted” classes IMO are bogus — both my kids were in one.
I believe our so-called lack of gifted high school math students is a statistical artifact but am waiting to hear what Bruce D. Baker has to say about it.
Our real problem and what brings our average PISA scores down (including at the highest level) is child poverty and lack of resources for poor communities. This is what the NYT is failing to acknowledge. Our other problem is the commercial exploitation of children by for-profit media companies, like Pearson, Inbloom, Kaplan and the like. Not to mention the real estate industry profiting from high house prices in desirable school districts. Our children are just plunder for the corporations.
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“Our children are just plunder for the corporations.”
Spot on……
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I thought NYT was supposed to be some liberal bastion. Since the beginning of the “shared sacrifice” (read: fleece education/public sector and blame public workers to free their salaries/pensions up for further pillaging and profit) thing I can see they are no more than the white side in some “good vs evil” kabuki theater. The theater isn’t looking to inform or promote our interests-it’s working to distract us and preserve it’s own. “Liberal” and “conservative” are just part of the language of political distraction, and we need to press for truth. There ARE definitive “right” and “wrongs” , especially when it comes to children,
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This whole anti education issue touches everyone. For once, conservative, liberal, Tea Party, Democrats and Republicans – the background doesn’t matter, we are all fighting for our children and public education. When it just involved the inner city, there was no fuss. Now that it’s hit the suburbs – all hell has broken lose. Thus the pushback and snide comments/articles. The only ones immune are individuals without children or those who can afford private school tuition.
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I really respond to Ellen T Klock’s comment, “And just because you are gifted doesn’t mean you are a conformist – in fact, the opposite is true. And your talents might not be paper and pencil…” Out of the box definitely is how much innovation comes about… conformism basically breeds conformism.
Test anxiety is a real issue…” I have a dear friend whose son is extraordinarily talented in music and theater yet has severe test anxiety. He does very well in his subjects but never is able to demonstrate his true knowledge when tested via paper and pencil in a timed setting. He is working on this but life is not all about paper and pencil. He is an out of the box thinker and creates his own satiric videos, writes and plays his own music on piano and guitar etc… Oh yes.. he was also the youngest in his martial arts academy to reach the level of black belt (6th grade). Thank goodness his martial arts was not all about a written test!
As a teacher I see children who are not labeled “gifted and talented” despite their excelling in my subject. Why? They must take a pencil and paper test as part of the “gifted and talented” process and be successful at every subject. By that standard, would someone like Albert Einstein have been deemed GT? Personally, I do not think teachers need to label students “GT”. Each student excels at something and a good teacher seeks to find this and encourage a student to challenge him/herself. There are times when a student has a true talent but it unfolds with time (how many stories to we hear about individuals who made discoveries of their talents during post schooling years)? What message do we send when we single out supposed GT children based on a written test? Especially when a GT label initially weeding out students based on a test result, seems to signify conformity more than original thinking as Ellen T. Klock mentions!
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I agree with everything you said artseagal.
Olmsted had a very non traditional high school entrance exam based purely on creativity. There were few directions, not much writing, the kids were given an item on an open page and told to create. I really can’t say much more, but I will say that gifted kids go crazy on this test, but smart kids, think in the box and try to give square peg answers to items which have round holes. The faculty was given the test and it was difficult. I consider myself creative, not gifted, but I had a problem coming up with enough unique ideas. I’ve been in the education box for too long.
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And many gifted boys (especially during the middle school years) are notoriously absent minded. They do their homework and then either leave it at home or in their locker. Their lockers are an abyss – you might even call them a black hole – where an item once lost is never found (until they throw them out the last day of school). When I taught study skills, I made them periodically clean those lockers so they were somewhat usable for a short time. The fun of adolescence.
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For part of my career, I was the parapro who monitored the locker cleaning of one such young man. I let him know that I found my job as distasteful as he found it but still necessary. It was really a dance to collect those assignments that never got turned in without violating his privacy. Fortunately, he was not one of those students who hoarded old lunches although the presence of an occasional gym sock or shirt was evident without visual confirmation. 🙂
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Proof that I’m telling the truth.
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Please tell me you have crafted a response to the NYT.
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Yes, Terry, I posted my comment on the Times gifted editorial about 1 am this morning.
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I teach in what was a NYC certified G & T Program in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn.. During King Bloomie’s region of terror, our budget was slashed, staff was cut and the DOE began to slowly steer parents away from our program, which for many years was heralded as a “model”. This was brought to my principal’s attention by a parent, who lived in the nieighborhood and wanted her child to attend the program. She was told no by the DOE.As our neighborhood became more gentrified, we found ourselves no longer on the DOE’s list of potential G & T classes. And as for the comment that “I do not think teachers need to label students “GT”. Each student excels at something and a good teacher seeks to find this and encourage a student to challenge him/herself,” I disagree. Gifted and Talented means just that and it’s often in more than one area. Before I taught in this program, I did treat each student as though they were G & T, but after actually working with this group of students, there’s a whole lot more to them than just a score. It would be awesome if all teachers taught all kids as if they were the top students.
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Lynda, working with the GT kids was an amazing experience, even for me as a librarian. They were avid readers and loved to talk about the books they read. Sometimes I got them to read my childhood favorites. We still discuss literature on Facebook, and now they are recommending their favorites to me. Gotta love it!
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As a colleague once told me about the media’s read on schooling: “everyone has been third grade” and thus, everyone is an expert on what happens in a school and to a school. The irony of these media perspectives, is the two sided argument that schools today are a mess, but they were fortunate to go to a good school. With all this talk about twenty first century skills, especially the ability to analyze and evaluate data, and yet editorial boards demonstrate a elementary grade understanding of what they data they are looking at.
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My mantra: Just because you were once a student, doesn’t make you an expert on education. Sounds silly, but that’s what CCSS is all about – former school students creating standards.
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Well with all the testing and assesment and pushing square pegs through round holes, this will increase.
No. They can’t have it both ways. They can’t fuss that standards are not bring uniformly met enough and then scold for not differentiating for high achievers.
This is getting ridiculous.
I have never taken journalism about education all that seriously (unless it was in an education journal), and right about now unless someone has been a teacher or directly involved in policy or studying the history of our schooling (a la Diane) I will listen to it about as much as I listen to a Loreal as “dare” me to wear their makeup.
Get real. Which is it? Stamping out the bell curve (which his ultimately what reformers want), or differentiating.
Ri.di.cu.lous.
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The more riled up I get at a post, the more typos I make. Hence the many above.
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Joanna,
You are one of those people I would like to sit down with, have a cup of coffee, and talk. As the day wore on we might switch to a more exciting libation…but I imagine a bunch of us could more than talk and laugh the day away.
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Too bad we don’t live anywhere near each other. I’d love that cup of coffee and conversation. However, blogging with you all seems more like an intimate conversation than a blog. After awhile, you all seem like my friends. Thank you Diane for bringing us together.
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What’s to stop people who are regionally located fom getting together anyway?
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That sounds like a lot of fun.
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2old et al:
Get Diane to come to Asheville and we can all grab a beer afterwards at one of our many breweries. 🙂
If I still sang in bands I set up a gig around it. But alas, those days are behind me. (Although I could get something together if she were to come to Asheville to do a book signing! She needs to check into Malaprops book store). Hint. Hint. Diane I know you are reading this.
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Diane has to come to Buffalo first and be recognized for her accomplishments by the BTF.
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We can go to the Anchor Bar for wings and to Hertel Ave for a Pub Crawl. In Buffalo there’s at least one bar on every street corner. We go crazy on Saint Patrick’s Day, but most Fridays all the teachers go out for happy hour.
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Alas, the suburbs of Chicago make Asheville a bit of a hike. Maybe we could all agree to have coffee at the same time. 🙂
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I’m serious. We should set up some “Coffee and a Chat” meet-and-greets. I’m in the NY-NJ-PA area. I might even join Facebook just to connect with people.
“If I still sang in bands I set up a gig around it. But alas, those days are behind me. (Although I could get something together if she were to come to Asheville to do a book signing! She needs to check into Malaprops book store). Hint. Hint. Diane I know you are reading this.”
Joanna, those days are never behind us. It’s like riding a bike, girl! I did a wedding gig this year after nearly a decade-long hiatus. It was incredible fun and (yeah) a lot if work to get my chops in some semblance of shape, but the bottom line is our life experiences always give us something more to add to future performances. To make music for our hero, well, that would be the icing on the cake for you. Do it in the summer, and I’ll join you! 🙂
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I’m a pretty good singer too. I always dreamed of singing in a band.
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” Stamping out the bell curve (which his ultimately what reformers want). . . ”
If that is the case then I agree with the reformers.
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Duane. The bell curve is a phenomenon that exists in nature.
I am open to new ways of educating, always. But you can’t say we need to get rid of a gap, and then say but wait you are ignoring the right side of the curve.
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No, the bell curve is not a “phenomenon that exists in nature.” It is some humans attempt at explaining the world through a mathematical model, which is usually seen by many as being the “truth” of the phenomenon.. As an explanatory model for certain phenomena in “nature” it can be rather lacking in the sense that many outliers, double humps and “abnormalities” occur, especially when it is applied to human behavior.
For me mathematical models as descriptions of very complex human behaviour are quite limited/stunting. And because most believe that “numbers don’t lie” that a mathematical model must be “true” without realizing that different basic assumptions of the models will change the mathematical outcome, that “truth” statement.
I’m not convinced, either that the edudeformers want to “get rid of the bell curve” and what your statement actually is getting at, what it means. Can you please expand and explain more?
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Swacker–
I think some would argue with you. Leaf patterns, for example, in a sample of 100 will yield a bell curve when you compare them in certain areas.
I agree students should not be valued based on mathematical metrics, but I do think some measurement offers insight into strength areas and areas for growth. Our problem is that it is being abused and then also turned against teachers.
I was a gifted teacher, so the bell curve is what helped us demonstrate the differences in need between an IQ of say 140 and that of 80. And how far the IQ of the 140 is from average (100, generally, although that is the average for white students. . .Jewish students and Asian students have a higher average, and African American students have a lower average). But as hard as we try, I don’t think we can ever get away from a distribution as such.
I think what you would like to see is that we simply don’t use a mathematical metric for ascribing attributes to students. (You would have fit in well with this community, I think http://www.foxfire.org). But you know that your vision is not likely. . .right?
So there you go. You have something in common with reformers. What are you going to do with it? 🙂
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Some will argue with me no doubt but that ain’t nuthin new!!!
I understand how the bell curve is used in relation to IQ but that doesn’t make it any more valid for more basic reasons. Mainly that there is no agreed upon workable definition of IQ. The usage of the concept of IQ is quite problematic in many ways.
“But you know that your vision is not likely. . .right?”
Please explain how.
“You have something in common with reformers. What are you going to do with it?”
Yes, I do have something in common with the edudeformers (and I wish you wouldn’t refer to them as “reformers” because they aren’t) namely that we put our pants on one leg at a time, we both take in nourishment but they spew out a lot more excrement per unit of nourishment, and we need oxygen to breathe to survive but their exhales are noxious, mine are sweet-ha ha!!
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“The bell curve is a phenomenon that exists in nature”.
How do you conceive of ‘nature’? You mean the Bell Curve is an a priori concept, which was merely waiting to be uncovered?
I know that I am being sarcastic. My apologies, if such sarcasm is un called for. On the other hand, for you too to ascribe a statistical construct such the Bell Curve to ‘nature’ is to possibly accept an ideologically damning position that you might otherwise abhor.
Give it some thought.
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The bell curve is the reality. In NYS, when the students started mastering the standardized test, the state reconfigured the rubrics to realign the test results to the bell curve. The problem with the current assessment rubric is that it is so skewed, the bell curve is nonexistent. That is why the results aren’t valid. The majority if the kids should be 2s and 3s with a small percentage at 1s and 4s. That’s not what we got.
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“The problem with the current assessment rubric is that it is so skewed, the bell curve is nonexistent. That is why the results aren’t valid.”
So you’re saying that if I make a quiz in which all the students get all the answers right (isn’t that is ideally what we’d like to have happen?) and the scores obviously don’t follow a bell curve then the quiz is “invalid”?
The invalidity to which you refer is not due to the scores not aligning along a bell curve. The invalidities are due to the myriad errors in the whole process as shown by Noel Wilson in “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700 . If you have not read it I’d advise that you do to understand the REAL invalidities involved with these tests.
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I agree. The goal is for everyone to get full mastery. And your classroom tests can and should do that – no bell curve needed. But on these standardized tests with such a large population, the bell curve is inevitable. You can make adjustments, like they do on the Regents Exam so more kids pass, but it still exists. As far as the numerous inaccuracies on the test – I’ve proctored such exams. They seem to be getting worse not better. The “imbalance” of the test scores was a direct result of the “imbalance” of the test questions. One just reflected the other.
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Ellen, have you read the Wilson study to which I so frequently refer. If not, please read it a couple of times to understand just how deep the errors of the processes of educational standards and standardized testing go. And how those errors invalidate those processes. Construction errors as you mention are just one category of errors that Wilson lists and explains.
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I’m sorry Duane I haven’t read the study, but it have proctored these tests for numerous grade levels. When you work in the inner city you can feel the bias. Passages about subjects these kids have never been exposed to AND they are boring. Suburban kids have a definite advantage. And why ask questions which are outside the curriculum. Algebra in grade eight? Most kids don’t have algebra until grade nine (though I’ve heard they are moving it to kindergarten?) And questions with no visible right answer – just your best guess. Or questions with two right answers – eeny, meany. . . And way too long. The joke is that the Bar Exam is shorter than the third grade assessment. So is the SAT and GRE. I could go on. I don’t have to read any reports – I’ve lived these assessments and I know enough. I also aware they’ve gotten worse, not better. I’m so glad I never, ever have to take another test, unless it’s an eye exam.
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Ellen,
I’m surprised that you were allowed to read the tests, most proctors are forbidden to. I proctored a SAT9 test once and was appalled at the number of problems/errors in questions to the tune of at least 25% having errors in each section up to over 50% in one section. I am fortunate to teach a subject (HS Spanish) that has escaped the testing regime so far.
But even as egregious as those errors were/are they are of only one type out of thirteen error categories that Wilson identifies, each of which can/does render the whole process invalid. Wilson’s work is not a “report” but an in depth epistemological and ontological (don’t let those two words scare you as they do to so many) analysis of educational standards and standardized testing. He was part of a testing regime in New South Wales so he has been in the belly of the beast and survived and has come back to slay it. It’s an excellent read, done with some humor but deadly serious in his analysis.
Again, I beg of you to please read it and then pass along all the information that you find that will be extremely important in fighting the standards and testing monster that has been unleashed upon us.
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Duane, you are killing me. I’ll look at the “book” a little more. I’m sure he has some interesting arguments, but does he come up with viable alternatives? I don’t see testing going away any time soon. I’d just like to see less of an emphasis on state assessments an more on an Individual child’s progress.
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As it is a study on the “invalidity” of the process, it focuses more on the problems, which definitely need to be elucidated, brought to light. And in exposing the malpractices for what they are we can hopefully convince people of the futility of what they are attempting.
“I don’t see testing going away any time soon.”
Well, it took a pretty long time for the Catholic church to admit it was wrong about Galileo, but even a most stubborn of institutions was eventually swayed. It takes time, which is why I half-jokingly call my unending promotion of Wilson’s work my Quixotic Quest.
Probably the best alternative is what he calls the “Responsive” frame in assessing anyone’s work in any area. And that means that assessing should be a conversation, a dialogue between the student (and/or his/her parents/guardians) and the assessor/teacher without resorting to sorting and separating, and ranking and labeling students with incomplete and invalid “grades/notes/categories”.
His work is not prescriptive but descriptive. He believes assessing should be a more “holistic” (and I don’t believe that’s a term he used and I’m not a big fan of it due to it’s various vulgar in the common sense connotations) descriptive process and definitely not an evaluative ranking process.
In trying to obtain a more just and equitable world sometimes a good tack to take is what he describes as “lessening injustices”. That by lessening/eliminating the injustices that are the package of educational malpractices comprised of educational standards, standardized tests and the “grading” we, by definition increase justice. Take away the cancer and the body can cure itself. His work is the detection of the these educational cancers and therefore a very vital and necessary part of the process. Not knowing about the cancer can have fatal consequences (unfortunately quite literally in the realm of high stakes testing, but probably worse are the lingering side effects of subjectivization that occurs in the process)
Ellen, thanks for the dialogue as it helps me sharpen my thoughts on these matters!
Duane
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Duane, one thing I do agree with is the importance of the conferencing – the interaction/discussion/mentoring between the teacher and the pupil. This is the most effective methodology of evaluation. And immediate feedback is the best kind for a child, or an adult, for that matter. If mistakes are caught when made, the appropriate change is more likely to happen.
I have done this in numerous situations. It is time consuming, it takes away from instruction time, and it is difficult to monitor the rest of the class (perhaps they could be using educational apps on their iPads). On the positive side, it helps you develop a close rapport with the student, it is a more efficient way of identifying strengths and weaknesses, and it is a non threatening (at least when I did it) way to correct the child’s work.
A good technique used by good teachers, but not to the exclusion of other types of evaluations, including testing (which also gives the teacher excellent feedback, especially when it is their own test).
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Ellen,
No, the bell curve isn’t “the reality”. It is a construction of the human brain as a mechanism to describe certain characteristics of this thing we humans call reality in a certain manner/fashion out of an infinitesimal number of possible descriptions. And humans have turned it into a “reality” by putting it down on paper, screens, etc. . . .
I don’t know about you but I’ve never run into a bell curve in nature.
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Duane, I’m basing my analysis on what I’ve observed over the years. The term Bell Curve is a way to refer to the distribution of test scores. It’s a tool to help the teacher assign a grade. I’m not a statistician, or an expert on nature, so I can’t answer the relevance of the Bell Curve and it’s alignment to deer population in a given year.
I could be totally off base, but it’s a truth I’ve believed for years and you haven’t changed my mind by any of your arguments.
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I agree that the bell curve can be “a way to refer to the distribution of test scores”. no doubt. Whether that way is valid is another question and, for me, it is not valid. And if something is not valid then it can’t be a “truth”. When we use invalid means to evaluate students we inevitably cause harm to some for a multitude of reasons all laid out in Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700
I ask that if you have read it what are your objections to this, the most important work, in educational policy in decades? Do you know of any rebuttal or refutation? If so, please let me know as I’ve been looking for over a decade now and haven’t found a single one. And if that is the case then I assume that what Wilson has shown is “true”. But I am open to valid critiques (and not that “it is some post-modernist diatribe”, that one doesn’t cut it).
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Duane, I asked my husband who is both an educator and a statistician. He says that if the sample size is large enough the distribution approximates the normal distribution or bell curve according to the Central Limit Theorem. The question is how large is large which is subject to debate.
And I will skim through Wilson’s article (which is much too long for a pleasant read).
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Duane. It’s not that you want to stamp out the bell curve. You want to use methods of education idea sharing that do not need the bell curve. But “reformers” want to use methods that will inevitably lead to a bell curve and have them not result in a bell curve and have punishments for it. And so to then scold for ignoring the right side of the bell curve while they are slamming people’s heads into wall for not stamping out a bell curve on an exercise that will result in a bell curve is CRAZY talk.
Have I mentioned I am glad O teach music? And in ten years I plan to be the Martha Stewart of education creativity and stewardship because we need one. Where is she? Here she is. Working on it. We have got to turn this ship in another direction.
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Joanna, we all should blog our creative ideas together, fix education (at least in our minds), then publish a book. Possible titles: Finding the Ringer to the Bell Curve
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For Whom the Bell Tolls – Not for You
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Answering the Questions You Didn’t Know You Had
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So the NYT position is that being labeled”gifted” is tantamount to capturing scores on standardized tests: that position is crass, cruel reductionist, neigh, simply wrong-headed; and has both short and longer term destructive implications.
It appears that the editorial board of ‘the old grey lady’ has been drinking deep from that bottle with same name. We all know the ill effects of such drinking: addled cognitive and affective functioning. Independent, truthful, non corporate thinking has flown out the window. The lived life of schools, communities, parents, students and educators can’t be shoe-horned into wearing the latest cut of ‘reform’ clothes: it will look like what it is: ill-fitted, more than slightly ridiculous and a painful reminder on the effects of media serving the corporate rather than the common good.
One obvious question that demands posing and answering: does the NYT, or any of its subsidiaries, receive funding from the ‘educational reform’ money people? Teasing out the host of possible overlapping, interrelated NYT connections would be a fine piece of investigative journalism.
The NYT continues to accelerate its long downward spiral into being little more than the mouth piece for the one per-center’s. Only now there is no attempt to hide its true alliances.
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What did the US do to “nurture” the last generation of “innovators”?
Where did the (former) innovators in the “smokestack economy” (their phrase) come from?
Is there something special and unique about “innovators” or “innovations” now, where they have to be “nurtured” where they didn’t have to be nurtured 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago?
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Isn’t it ironic that many of our innovators dropped out of high school? What does that say about our education system? Obviously, one size does not fit all.
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Look at this article arguing that public school students can still have an amazing education. This writer (brother of a recent Nobel Prize winner in Economics) is excellent!
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57185377-82/lars-university-nobel-economics.html.csp
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I cannot find Diane Ravitch’s comment on the Times site (nor mine). They apparently also have a new commenting system called “filtering” (maybe it’s really censorship of dissident views).
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Harold,
The blog post on which you left your comment was my response to the Times’ editorial.
I could probably have left a comment online. But I prefer to write on my own blog.
I seem to be banned from the Times as a contributor. They rejected my last attempt a few months ago to write an op-Ed. Since the op-Ed page was created to print views different from those expressed in editorials, and since I have published on that page many times in the past, I can only conclude that my views are unwelcome on that page.
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Their system of commenting omits to record the time the comment was made.
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Gifted Education receives NO federal funding. You get what you pay for. It is a travesty for gifted students. Our greatest natural resource is our children. Why do we not foster the very brightest with federal funds? They are the ones that are most likely able to solve some of our world’s problems. We need them as a society so much, but we as a country do not fund programs to actual do the fostering. Some states have no gifted program, while others have really good ones. It is an area that needs support desperately.
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Wendy
There used to be federal funding for gifted education. It was called the Eisenhower program. There was also a federally funded research center for gifted education. They were eliminated in recent years.
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Wendy, there used to be federal funding of gifted education. It was called the Eisenhower program. I don’t recall which Congress killed it. There was also a federal research center for gifted education, and that too was eliminated by the politicians in DC.
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There is no IDEA act for GT students and they do not enjoy the protection of federal and state courts. Some teachers here have said that “at hey will be ok”, and I think that is the prevailing opinion in public education.
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TE. In some states identified AG or GT or “gifted” are considered EC and are granted the due process rights afforded by an IEP.
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Interesting.
In my plain vanilla school district there is no organized GT program, just skipping grades and allowing students to attend university classes that do not count towards high school graduation if the family can pay the tuition and fees for the class. GT students do get IEPs however.
Because of their small size (the median high school in my state has 250 students), many high schools do not offer any advanced classes. There was a short lived attempt to have a public GT boarding high school for the state, but funding was cut before the school was opened.
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I don’t understand what they think these Potemkin measures accomplish except to help them maintain their “coddled” bubble of unreality — that is, until “le déluge”, if there is one.
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I am tired of the cognitive skills of American children being compared to those living in small homogeneous cultures. One cannot even compare our children to each other. America is a huge country with rich diversity in all areas of life. Thus standardized academic programs and testing are going to misrepresent skill mastery.
Perhaps we need to create international achievement exchange programs in which American and Finnish children live abroad, immersed in their new cultures and then compared.
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As a school psychologist years ago I assessed intelligence of incoming kindergardeners to test for ‘giftedness”. Initially I assumed I was to do a full evaluation that would have included more than the standard WISCIII (now it’s WISCIV) but was instructed not to write a report that would include observations and interview et.al.. The Full Scale I.Q. score was IT. Since there were only 60 seats available in the two district classes, ‘gifted’ children were those with the highest scores. Subsequently ‘giftedness’ was defined differently in each New York City district and from one year to the next. This did not represent standardization.
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Ayn, It’s not like that everywhere. The evaluation for admittance to Kindergarten at our school, Olmsted, included a one on one interview with a GT teacher, a psychological exam, and a parent evaluation (checklist). Some of the four year olds were very shy and refused to speak, while others were quite gregarious. A team evaluated each packet of information to determine entrance. There were also entrance exams at the other grade levels which included paper and pencil, but the test focused on problem solving skills. There still was a psychiatric evaluation, plus teacher and parent checklists. We needed at least four testing dates to accommodate everyone (City Honors – grades 5-12 also gave the same test with us, but they required an essay). Entry into both programs was competitive and the selection process was thorough. City Honors was the first choice, Olmsted second, then private schools for the more affluent. Everyone was allowed to apply – and they did.
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Interesting idea ayn. Better yet, let’s exchange teachers between Finland and the US. We seem to need teachers in Buffalo, they are hiring TFA teachers next year. Why not get someone from Finland. They can work at the International School with the refugees. They’d make the perfect ELL teacher. Any takers?
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Pasi Stahlberg has already addressed that one:
http://pasisahlberg.com/what-if-finlands-great-teachers-taught-in-u-s-schools/
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If they respond like many Teach for America and Teaching Fellows that I taught at CUNY They’ll take the first SAS flight home or stay for the Masters degree and flee.
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I just turned on CNN to listen to Fahreed Zakaria. After he introduced his panel and topic I promptly turned the TV off. Why are our students doing so poorly on PISA? Panel : Joel Klein, Thomas Friedman, the Khan Academy guy, and Wendy Kopp! Same old ___.
When will the public hear other points of view on the MSM???
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I don’t think there is any real evidence that gifted children need a special type of education. (Arguably perhaps their parents do). In NYC “gifted programs” were frankly devised as way to keep better off white middle class parents from taking their kids out of the public schools.
The wisest teachers know that talents are not really predictable but can develop at any age. Some kids bloom early, other later. The most humane and just way of doing things would be to provide the kind of environment in which all children can flourish (proceeding at their own pace, if necessary), rather than trying to devise measurements to identify the superior “chosen few”. No one, talented or not, is helped by being made self conscious, or even narcissistic, though labeling.
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My son was certainly helped by his university classes. They were the thing that got him through high school.
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It’s hard for any kid to get through high school. That’s why the day they graduate is the happiest day of a parent’s life, very often.
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What would you have a kid in high school take after he taught himself Galois Theory over the summer?
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In the city, for many, the happiest day is 8th grade graduation. There is no expectation of a high school diploma. Sad!
For me, it was when my daughters graduated from college.
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Harold, you are not listening. The NYC program is for smart kids. Gifted kids do NOT do well in a traditional setting. They get easily bored and act out. It would be impossible for the teacher to attend to the needs of the average student, remediate those who need extra help, try to stimulate the environment of the above average, and then provide stimulation for the gifted students. And each gifted student might need a different hook to keep them out of trouble. Harold, it’s been tried. Those are the kids a parent pulls out of a school. It’s a very complex issue that many school districts grapple with, but since their numbers are small, most programs are inadequate.
Too bad the federal government has pulled back on GT, but it’s always the special programming which goes first.
My district had a special GED program my son attended. The teacher helped him immensely, psychologically as well as educationally, and he followed up after my son passed the exam. They provided workbooks and practice tests. Of course, with budget cuts, it was eliminated. The costs were negligible. I did complain to the Superintendent, but, although he apologized, there was nothing he could do. My son had benefited, but others now wouldn’t. I’m sure their Ideas program, which fostered the 7 intelligences in elementary school, is also gone. It seems the good ideas are the ones to go – too innovative to last.
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You were lucky your son had a good experience in a gifted class. Both my son and my daughter were put in gifted classes and our experience was not like yours. One or two of the teachers were good, but several were remarkably mean, assigned material that was too advanced (5th grade worksheets for 7-year olds), and loaded them up with busy work, and yelled at the children. They seemed to feel they didn’t need to teach because the kids already knew everything, so they assumed.
My son tried his hardest but had poor hand-eye coordination and his papers would come back filled with big red marks and “try harder” written on them, when I knew he had copied them out three times.
He was a November baby, a full year younger than many of the others. It was a high stress environment. (With my daughter I took her out and put her in a Waldorf school.)
The teachers my son and daughter had had in the regular class were much more experienced and in control and the kids really didn’t seem any different. I guess it is the luck of the draw.
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I’m sorry. That sounds like a horrible program. My brother is brilliant, but he had the same problem with his penmanship. Ironically, all you really need to do is sign your name, no other writing skills required.
My son is dyslexic, but I feel he is gifted, in the Edison way. He’s quiet and watches, then learns. In first grade he couldn’t remember his ABCs, he was too busy contemplating the cosmos and the world around us. I think he has a touch of autism, but he maintains eye contact so he is considered too social. His main positive is his charisma. Everybody loves my son. The teachers adored him and he was treated kindly. The district pulled out all the stops and I exposed him to all sorts of experimental programs. His anxiety kept me from sending him to a local boarding school for boys like him (that plus the expense). We (and it was a joint effort between me and his teachers) got him through 8th grade, but HS was a bust. We pulled him out his senior year and put him in a GED program. When he passed his exam, the entire family went out to dinner and we celebrated his accomplishment, including cards with money. He didn’t walk across the stage, but he was happy with himself.
We created this unique path with help from the school district. Every child needs an individualized pathway to success. My fear is that the CCSS will prevent others from realizing positive goals.
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It is not clear to me why you should fear a common standard more than a state, district, or even teacher held standard. All might prevent others from reaching their goals. I know, for example, that grades I have given to students have prevented them from admission to a school at my university and delayed, possibly even prevented, a student from graduating.
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That must be a hard call to make, but sometimes those kids put no effort at all into a course. My philosophy is that you must work hard to do absolutely nothing in order to fail.
In the library, I worked very hard with the students willing to let me guide them, to assist them in receiving a passing grade. Several students would not have graduated without my help, others slipped through my fingers. Some deserved to fail, others just couldn’t cut it, no matter how hard they tried. You don’t get an A for effort.
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TE, I suppose I feel strongly there needs to be some sort of guideline to what is appropriate. General standards, not scripted curriculum. Standards with room for interpretation to meet individual needs.
The question is – Is that possible?
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Okay, I looked through the article. Sorry Duane, I don’t buy the whole premise. I think that assessments have value. First though, they have to measure the material you want to test. Then you have to look at the results to locate what concepts need to be revisited. In the past, teachers would examine their students’ assessments from the year before. They would look at the questions missed, determine which items needed to be stressed, and include those subjects into their lesson plans. The feedback thus became somewhat relevant and invalid questions were fairly obvious.
Of course, teacher made tests result in immediate feedback. If everyone fails the test, the teacher must examine the validity of the test or their mode of teaching.
CCSS test questions are not available for teachers to use. They are given the standard of the students’ errors, but not the questions or answers. This is one of the reason we are questioning their validity.
Regents Exams tested the knowledge gained over a year or more of coursework. It was a way to discover if a student had mastered the content. If not, then they needed to retake the class and try again. Pass or Fail! Cut and Dry! Yes or No! If you paid attention in class, studied, and used good test taking strategies, there were no problems. It rewarded the diligent, penalized the idle. Carrot and the stick! Even failing a test has value – if you take steps to make sure it doesn’t happen again. That’s why we say “Learn from your mistakes”. A good way to prepare for the real world (and college)). Without final exams, why bother?
You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Various styles of assessment have been tried over the length of my career, but testing still seems to be the best option in the majority of cases.
What are your experiences with tests? I might be biased as I am an excellent test taker.
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It seems to me that this talk about gifted education is just a distraction, and worse, a purposely divisive one. The main issue is inequity, which affects many more children. Keeping families from falling into poverty would undoubtedly raise test scores by the 2 percent standard deviation that the reformers keep going on about, without the cruelty and uncertainty of firing teachers after they have been thrown into classes with no training and then deemed incompetent by their unlucky pupils’ end-of-year test scores.
Those lucky children who excel can given the opportunity to go to summer math camp, after-school and weekend math, science, and other clubs, and similar activities, as well as being encouraged to proceed at their own pace in a regular classroom during the year. Increasing money for scholarships to such places as well as for college would also help.
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There are inequities which need to be addressed. I suggest the State Education Departments spend their time and energy on fixing their own back yards instead of adopting the Common Core. More states need to opt out.
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Harold, if you find the best methods to teach “gifted” students, you’ve likely found many of the best methods to teach most or for some techniques, all, students.
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This is true and putting kids in padded cells or sending them to hospital emergency rooms at the expense of their parents are not among the best methods. You wouldn’t train a dog that way.
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