Are there large classes in Los Angeles Unified School
District? Some commenters say yes, some say no. The average for the
district does not answer the question, because students with
special needs may be in a class of 5 or have a teacher assigned
only to her because of the severity of her disability.
The LAUSD board recently passed a resolution directing Superintendent John
Deasy to reduce class size, but
he said on a radio program that he would ignore the
directive. Instead, he is buying iPads for all students and
spending more money on Common Core. Apparently the $1 billion
produced by Prop 30 will be used for Common Core, not for class
size reduction.
What do teachers and parents say? Here is a comment
by a parent who is also a teacher: My son’s sixth grade
academic classes at Hale Charter Academy (an affiliated LAUSD
charter) have 44 students in them. Yes, I said 44. In math,
English, social studies, and science. He is in the School for
Advanced Studies and the school does not turn away any qualified
SAS students. I am not arguing with their policy, because they are
doing the best they can. But that class size is RIDICULOUS! He is
not allowed to bring his backpack to classes because there is not
enough room. I also would like to see
statistics at the individual class level, because so many factors
mask these large class sizes. For example, we have at least six
certificated teachers who are out of classroom. A Title I
coordinator, two discipline deans who are elected from the staff, a
bilingual coordinator, a college counselor, a career counselor and
now, a “Core” math coach (Common Core? I haven’t found out yet).
Though most of these people do not teach at all (I think one of
them teaches one class) they are still counted in our student to
teacher ratios, which makes class sizes look small.
Another extenuating factor is that we have small learning
communities, and that creates some smaller classes. That means
other classes have to be bigger. We are
co-located with a great magnet program. Magnets have a “norm” of 34
to 1, while the rest of us have 42.5-1. So the magnet hired a
teacher this year, while we lost one, and our class sizes are
already huge. Administrators have to make very
difficult decisions, but there should be an actual cap on
individual class sizes. Teachers who speak out are not popular on
campus. The governor’s budget, I believe, does away completely with
any class size mandates, leaving that to “local control.” Trust me,
that can and will be abused. Do you want YOUR kid in classes with
40-50 students, and more? None of us do. I,
too, would like to see some real numbers on class size. And I don’t
think we will get that from LAUSD or the UTLA. So I think there
needs to be a place where teachers can post their actual,
individual class sizes. I had a journalism
class with 55 students last year and complained to no avail. It’s
even worse with electives…they can have 55 students, according to
my school. And they often do.
At my LAUSD elementary school, there are 24 students per teacher in grades K-3, BUT, 39 students per teacher in grades 4 and 5.
I’m an LAUSD art teacher at the middle school level. We’re about a month into the school year and I still have classes with up to 47 students (Down from 52 just a week ago). I’ve had to significantly curtail the type of activities and projects we do when dealing with such large class sizes.
Jesse Rodgers: thank you for a comment from Planet Reality.
Take SpecEd. You can achieve marvels of [fictional] class-size reduction at the school-level just by taking those teachers and TAs and the relatively few students they work with and simply lumping them in with all the general teaching staff and the general student population.
For example, a one-on-one TA with a severely autistic child gets numerically ‘distributed’ among all the students—looks good on paper, but that TA is pretty much occupied with that one student even if s/he occasionally helps another student as well when mainstreaming.
When dealing with averages [mean, median, mode] beware of “outliers,” i.e., a single or small number of examples that skew ratios up or down.
Ah, accountabully math!
Ain’t it grand!
“Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable.” [Mark Twain]
🙂
In terms of how to spend it, they have all the
authority.
For your convenience, here’s the text of the two
union presidents’ letter TO THE 7 LAUSD
SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS, in response
to Superintendent Deasy’s defiance of the
Board’s motion to lower class size.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
“July 10, 2013
“Honorable Richard Vladovic,
—President, LAUSD Board of Education
“Honorable Marguerite LaMotte,
—Board Member, District 1
“Honorable Monica Garcia,
—Board Member, District 2
“Honorable Tamar Galatzan,
—Board Member, District 3
“Honorable Steve Zimmer,
—Board Member, District 4
“Honorable Bennett Kayser,
—Board Member, District 5
“Honorable Monica Ratliff,
—Board Member, District 6
“Dear Board Members:
“We are writing on behalf of the members of our two
organizations: United Teachers Los Angeles, which
represents the 36,000 classroom teachers and health
and human services professionals of LAUSD, and
Associated Administrators of Los Angeles, exclusive
representative for over 2,300 certificated and
classified administrators within the District.
“We wish to raise a concern about recent statements
by Superintendent John Deasy, related to his
obligation to abide by the policy positions and
directives of the Board of Education.
“On June 20, the ‘LA School Report,’ published a
story entitled, ‘Defiant Deasy Says He’ll Push
Targeted Spending Plan Anyway.’ In that article
Mr. Deasy clearly indicates that it is his intention
to circumvent the Board vote on use of new state
LCFF monies.
“Specifically, Mr. Deasy is quoted as stating that,
” ‘The Board voted down the directive. . . ,’ referring
to Ms. Galatzan’s recent local spending resolution,
” ‘[But] they can’t stop me from doing it; we’re doing
it anyway.’ ”
“To date, we have not been able to locate
any report that Mr. Deasy has disavowed these
public statements, nor has he indicated that he was
misquoted.
“The Superintendent is an employee of the District,
and is legally required to operate ‘under the
control of the Board.’ The California courts have
recognized that a Superintendent does not
‘exercise independent powers’ (Main vs.
Claremont, Unified School District, 161
CalApp 2d189, 204).
“As the presidents of two organizations charged
with representing and bargaining for a large
proportion of District employees, we do not
expect that Mr. Deasy’s statements and policy
positions will always align with those of our
respective organizations.
“However, as both District employees and as
taxpayers, we do expect that the
Superintendent will, at all times, discharge his
duties in a manner that is consistent with his
role as the District’s chief executive officer.
Statements and conduct to the contrary can
only erode public confidence in the Board
and the District.
“California law clearly places both the power
and the responsibility for ultimate leadership
of the District in the hands of its elected
governing board. Regardless of Mr. Deasy’s
motives or intentions, no district, and no
community, is served when this democratic
authority is undermined.
“Please contact either of us if you have any
questions. We are thankful for your time and
attention to this matter.
“Respectfully,
“Warren Fletcher
President,
United Teachers Los Angeles
“Judith Perez
President,
Associated Administrators of Los Angeles”
There are definitely very large classes in the LAUSD. I don’t know the averages, but in my blog, as I follow several 11th grade English teachers through an academic year, two of the teachers I’m following have classes of 50. Others seem to have classes around 36-40. How in the world does a teacher work with classes this enormous? For five years, I taught at a charter where my classes felt overwhelming at 32. I can’t imagine how I’d deal with a class of 50. I’m incredibly curious to see how this plays out over the course of a year.
Before Deasy it was 25 for 11, 35 for 10 which is test heavy grade, with CAHSEE necessary for graduation. We have to grade these kids’ papers. If you don ‘t read essays you are going to cheat them out of personalization. Every year I had about 200 students and about 5 essays assigned per term. It has gotten worse. I do not see how it can be done. My guess is it isn’t. You know there has to be laws about this. Most high schools in LA hoods are built for 2000 kids. They stick about 3500 in and cough up Gates’ Wackidoodle research to justify the class size in PD… It sure isn’t in students’ best interests
Do you not have fire laws for number of occupants permitted in a room based on square footage, ventilation and access to doors? Our state (OH) builds new classrooms for a maximum capacity of 24 (number of cubbies, etc) and we have up to 30 in our rooms. No assistants or aides, either. 42 is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for the teachers and the students.
I believe our tech people and media people wrote grants for all our tech at all the schools. We are about as tech-read as possible, but it is all on one server (or it was). I can’t imagine the possibility of overloads. We have underground cable, too, so at times there are water issues. It is kind of dicey.
Nobody cares about the fire codes. When we started violating them regularly, the school simply removed the “maximum occupancy” signs that used to hang over the doors. It’s insane.
Class size is “average class size”. If your class size average is supposed to be 36 and one or two have only 25….
Who are getting kick-backs is my question? It’s about $$$$$.
Kickbacks? Nonsense. Such comments essentially destroy a serious discussion of the issues. Such massive class sizes (> 30 in Middle School and HS) appear to be a localized problem – though I would be interested in hearing which other Districts are facing the same problem. The first step is to get good numbers on actual class size as the poster indicates and then the breakdown of the budget for the district and each school within the district. Given national class size numbers and expenditures per child something is seriously wrong in LAUSD.
It’s not localized. Utah has always had class sizes this large, and I”m hearing that class sizes are getting that large from colleagues in other states as well.
LP:
I found this data:
Click to access nces-classsizesheet.pdf
However, it is 5 years old.. Is anyone aware of anything more recent and based on a more systematic type of census?
Now ask yourself what information you gain from this data even it was more recent.
2old2tch:
Is the situation getting worse or better? Has the burst of federal money in the last few years made a difference? Have any of the 51 entities dramatically shifted and if so what happened?
In LAUSD the situation has supposedly deteriorated significantly in the last few years. Does it show up in the CA numbers?
Besides this, what on earth is wrong with asking if more recent data exists?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for useful data. My point was that that data didn’t really tell you anything. The Utah figures you found(and I read after I had responded to the first data you posted) was more revealing.
2old2tch:
I agree that the breakdown of the Utah data is more informative. The trend in the aggregate data though is also helpful in where to look further. I am surprised that this data is not more visible since it certainly provides leverage for increasing funding in those States with average class sizes close to 30.
I found this for Utah:
http://www.schools.utah.gov/data/Educational-Data/Class-Size-Staff-Ratios/Class_Size_Report_2012.aspx
It does indeed look like there are numerous classes in numerous districts where the class sizes in HS are close to 40, given the average class size.
The median class size data is more useful. Can you imagine teaching five or six sections with a median of 30+ students? You had better have some self motivated learners because there is not going to be much hand holding.
2old2tch:
Having both the mean and the Median class size would be better.
Smaller class sizes would be better but I am not sure whether the relationship with student outcomes is linear. Moreover, there are plenty of folks who had class sizes in the 30s growing up in the 1950s and 1960s. It certainly means a heavier workload for the teachers.
The mean can give you awfully skewed data.
Yes, there were plenty of people who were in classes with 30+ students in the 50s and 60s, but our expectations were much different. We didn’t expect teachers to take sole responsibility for the college and career readiness of every student. We didn’t evaluate students, schools or teachers on the basis of high stakes tests and punish them for not reaching ever moving and changing targets. We didn’t spend endless hours collecting data, test prepping, and testing. I could go on, but I’m sure you get the idea. It was a much different world.
Public school class size is one of the statistics privatizers regularly mislead with. They just divide the number of students with the number of teachers (sometimes including other non-teaching staff members) in the building, forgetting that a huge percentage of the faculty are special educators, social workers, etc.–the type of faculty necessary in public schools–so a school that has over 30 kids per typical class will be said to have a 14:1 student/teacher ratio.
Over 35 kids in any academic class in a public school should be illegal. The kids and taxpayers are being ripped off, because there’s no way learning can effectively happen the way it should with a teacher’s attention spread that thin.
“Over 35 kids in any academic class in a public school should be illegal”
Nonsense!! For K-3 the maximum should be 15 students with a minimum of two adults, for 4-8 max should be 20 with minimum 2 adults and for 9-12 max should be 25 with a minimum of 2 adults (with exceptions for choir, band, etc. . . )
This is just as they have engineered it – classes are overcrowded, teachers will be determined to be ineffective, they will be let go, students will drop out… etc. What a disgrace!!
Exactly, our teachers quit, as they are being burnt out on purpose
Evertyhing you say is true. At our school we have so many people out of the classroom and some of them are classified as teachers but they are not in the classroom. Unfortunately, educators are not listened to nor do they direct anything.
This is our online educated superintendent with this complicit board of miseducation making these decisions. The intent appears to be to destroy the district by bleeding it dry of all monies. Never will the voters listen to us when they see all the crazy decisions these people have made with our money. Apparently, the board is allowing Deasy to do what he wants, even if that means the destruction of public education in
Los Angeles.
Our public district claims a better teacher/pupil ratio than reality proves, also. They lump all the teachers in a building, including spec end classes, (not sure about Title I) and they divide the misleading number into the number of pupils. For the district, they do the same. But it turns out that the middle school has as many as 36 in a class in reality. The smaller classes are electives in high school. So we “sound great” on paper. The facts are much less satisfying.
The arrogant John Deasy reminds me of General Douglas McArthur during the Truman administration and will likely meet the same fate. The last thing the children of the Los Angeles Unified School District needs is a superintendent with contempt for them and their teachers. LAUSD can do better and I predict that they will.
Not up to them or even parents. The BOE belongs to Eli Broad and he installed Deasy to destroy the school district..
http://www.thebroadreport.blogger.com
http://www.hemlockontherocks.com
At my child’s LAUSD high school 4 of 5 of her academic classes range from 41 – 49.
Obviously, this is just a travesty; no teacher can teach that many students properly; no student can learn from the teacher. If they learn, it is almost entirely due to themselves. Another absurdity of the teacher-accountability misnomer.
As mentioned about about this being according to plan, teachers of such large class sizes will suffer the consequences of their students’ inevitable outcome-slippage. As well, parents will yank their kids in lightening speed to escape into charters that are allowed to fill their classrooms to a norm of 25 only. *****Why are charters allowed to cap their classroom sizes????****** When the district sends in an architect to draft plans to carve up a school to co-location, they calculate the charter’s classroom needs at 25 students per classroom. The district school gets no such calculation whatsoever. The size of district classes is allowed to float ever-upwards.
As for certificated teachers outside of the classroom — here’s another lovely bit to that. They’ve cut almost all administrative staff and so to survive, schools have voted themselves another dean or so — this would be, for example, for a school of 1800 that is forced to survive on 3 administrators [I am actually a little shaky on some of these numbers but I have no doubt some readers here are not and I hope they will supercede these complaints with truer facts]. So they vote in another administrator because the district has nixed theirs, but that person counts as a “Certificated” teacher, meaning class sizes go up (on average). Thus teachers have to vote between having some administrative assistance at the expense of more children in their own classroom. Still, in many cases, they have done so.
A real “Sophie’s Choice”.
And so the drumbeat of degrading public district schools, flattening teacher’s unions and utterly negating a child’s right to a decent education; that is *Our Very Own Democracy* — all this destruction rolls inexorably on.
Honestly, why aren’t we all pouring out into the streets? They are in Mexico, they are across the world? We are really, really passive lambs here in the US. These policies are nothing short of treasonous. The misuse of money is nothing short of criminal.
Which leaves a label of what for our elected and appointed school officials, the ones orchestrating all this….? (not a multiple choice response, but a test all the same).
Since when are there caps on class size in charter schools? In my area, class size is another one of those regulation free zones that charters lay claim to for the sake of “innovation.”
If you want regulation, don’t look for it in charter schools. Regulation is now reserved for neighborhood schools, so they can be hog-tied in public, seen as undeserving and starved of the basic nutrients needed for survival, rapidly die and then be remade anew into unregulated charters.
It is to the advantage of charters to have a class size cap when a district is calculating space in a co-location with the public school they will be sharing space with, which does not. That way the charter ends up with more space. It doesn’t mean they have to use the cap for space allocation as the actual class cap size. I do not know what the law is in LAUSD (or anywhere in California for that matter). It is a ridiculous notion to think that any teacher, whether “excellent” or not, can teach classes of 40-50 students well. It is a ridiculous notion to think that 40-50 students can be taught safely in a classroom designed for twenty-five. What is even more impossible to imagine is a superintendent who thinks he can ignore the directives/decisions of his employer. Something is really wrong.
I posted earlier this morning about the class sizes in my LAUSD elementary school. I stated that 5th grade had 39 students per teacher, but I found out this morning that they now have 41 students each.
That is crazy! They cannot expect to get away with that!
LAUSD sets up a range for average of class size across K – 3, separate level for 4 and 5. Unfortunately, at my school k, 1, and 2 are packed, 3 is low. The answer from the district is to pull some second graders out and make a “split”, where the teacher is expected to teach both grade levels whereas already you can hardly fit all the material in for one grade level. It is a ridiculous system, set up before new standards were imposed.
Melissa:
I think it is very useful to separate issues that are essentially driven by insufficient funding, poor management and bad politics from those that are due to the poor implementation of various education reforms.
Bernie that is BS . Do not buy into it. They are dumping money on a bloated admin . That grew 25% in the last ten years. They NEVER cut those people or their obscene saleries i know the steal money from schools. Grants, title 1 and Deasy has his way with the allocations. The money for ipads is from a fund for refurbishing neglected schools that really need it. He is a share holder in Apple and the conflicts of interest are fairly common . Cortines got caught in one just before he retired. He was getting $150k from Scholastic, which is tge big tests supplier . $16 million a year in testing before the core bore and all kinds of stuff, notably from Pearson, which is substandard protect of a trillions of dollar leader in the education industry. LAUSD wadte is appalling. These people have buried us with. Bad tests, bad text books, bad resourcs, bad deals and bsd failth for years. Deasy is the apex of this entrenhed corruption. And just so you know, the state of California could be profoundly harmed by the debt of that iPad deal. We just state balanced our budget, and I want to believe or Gov. Is doing the best he can for this state. The State Supt. seems ti be too. But thhe idea of throwing money at LAUSD is repugnant. They white chalk criminals never ever use it how they are supposed to.
Rene:
Any payments from a Publisher to an educator on a payroll are a clear conflict of interest. But this type of corruption has nothing to do with the current reforms per se. It has been going on for years especially in States like Texas with State-wide adoption policies. It was corruption then and is corruption now. And that is my point. Large class sizes are a budget issue as far as I can see. I know of no reform efforts that explicitly argue for larger class sizes. Do you? You need to separate out the different issues.
As far as I know, the biggest estimate for textbook and materials spending in the US for 55 million students is $8 billion. It is hard to get a more precise figure.
I’m an LAUSD middle school art teacher with class sizes reduced to 31, 32, 39, 44, 45 and 48. That averages almost 40/class. AVERAGE doesn’t make sense! With 48 students in a 50 minute class I have no time to actually help students. More students means more time on attendance, more time passing out and collecting supplies (for which I have no budget.) My class of 45 has a sped teacher’s entire class load of 6th graders mixed in with 7th and 8th. If it is based on average and the actual class size doesn’t matter, why not give me 250 in my first period??