Robert Shepherd, experienced designer of textbooks and assessments, wrote the following:
“I believe in my heart of hearts that there are good, well-meaning people on both sides of the accountability debate. I also believe that there are certainly roles to be played by standards and evaluation systems and testing.
“I fervently hope that we shall see, over the coming years, prudence, vigorous but respectful debate, more caution than has been shown to date with regard to new implementations, and real innovation, INCLUDING competing, vastly differing models for what school looks like. It’s complete hubris for ANY OF US to think that he or she has THE solution.
“Consider, for example, online learning. On the one hand, it can be a godsend, allowing for immediate feedback, embedded formative assessment, and tailoring of education to particular students’ particular needs and propensities. On the other hand, it can mean warehouses of students doing what are basically worksheets on a screen with little interaction with teachers who might serve them as models of what a learner is. One can point to examples of really, really dreadful computer-assisted instruction and to really, really superb examples. And in everything related to these debates–with regard to standards, to high-stakes testing, to teacher evaluation systems, the same can be said: some of what is being done is wonderful. Some of it is really awful.
“I doubt that anyone, except, perhaps, a few test prep publishers, really wants kids to be spending a third of the school year doing test prep drills. I doubt that anyone thinks that that is what his or her reform efforts sometimes amount to, and I think that a lot of folks would be horrified to find that that’s often the case. And it’s because I believe that most people involved, on both sides of the accountability and reform issue, are well-meaning, that I have hope that the egregious excesses we’ve seen from the reform movement can be addressed and that we can all find common ground on which we can have real dialog.
“My personal position is that where there is competition between models, innovation occurs, and so I don’t like blanket prescriptions and blanket, top-down mandates from the left or the right.
“I have followed Diane Ravitch’s work for many years now. I still think that her Left Back is the single best book ever written on American education. And I’ve known her, over the years, to be a stalwart defender of a rigorous, rich, broad-based curriculum in literature, the arts, history, and the sciences. And I have great respect for her as a scholar, someone who doesn’t believe in simple, magic solutions where there are complex underlying determinative phenomena that those solutions don’t address. I am grateful for her voice. We all should be. Vigorous, sometimes messy debate is the hallmark of a pluralistic democracy. I believe in standards. I believe in frequent testing that is NOT high stakes. But I’m not a supporter of mandatory standards, and I think that there are major problems with the CCSS in language arts. That said, I hasten to add that I like many of Mr. Coleman’s underlying ideas–his focus on what texts say rather than on isolated instruction in skills, his emphasis on having kids read related texts over extended periods. These are VERY IMPORTANT, VERY VALUABLE ideas. But I think that implementing those ideas is incompatible with turning our schools into test prep factories.
“We need a lot less debate (and name calling) and a lot more discussion. We need a lot less precipitous prescription and a lot more cautious experiment.”

What are the “really really superb examples” of computer based instruction? I have yet to hear about any.
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One of my three children learned to read via “Writing to Read.”
He was reading the NY Times in kindergarten. He didn’t understand every word but he certainly learned to read. That was in 1989.
His siblings (older & younger) learned to read via whole reading. Both of them struggled. One over phonated (not sure of term) & the other child simply memorized the book. She could tell you what was on every single page with the book open & closed, however she couldn’t read the words “A” or “I”
So there’s one example of really really superb computer based instruction.
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Sheila – actually your kids sound like normal examples of children with varying strengths and weaknesses who learn differently. . Reading words is not “learning” to read. He sounds very talented however. Comparing him and his experience o your other children and their experience does not make a case FOR Writing to Read or against whole language or phonics. The point here being that
STANDARDIZATION is not the answer.
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@ geauxteacher
Thanks for the correction. I meant whole language.
I agree children have different learning styles.
I don’t get involved with CCSS as standards. I care about the data collection & use.
I was simply saying Writing to Read is a first hand superb example of computer based learning.
Perhaps I should have said “One of my children learned to read via Writing to Read. In my opinion, Writing to Read, one example of computer based learning, aided his reading ability.”
Seriously, is that an OK statement to make? I’m not trying to be argumentative.
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You are banished!
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I would like to believe that everyone on both sides is well-meaning, but that just isn’t true.
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I agree with much of what Mr. Shepherd says. On-line learning can be a way to individualize instruction but it should not be a reason to “warehouse” students and remove their interactions with a real human being. Just like any kind of instruction, on-line education is only as good as those who administer and deliver it. Also, I would like to see more piloting of the CCSS in real-world classrooms with normal students before we roll it out en masse.
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Mr. Shephard’s last statement ” a lot more cautious experiment.” is what is needed. In Mathematics, I could write a backward design curriculum where Calculus is taught in the 8th grade but the question would be could the Teachers and students in K-7 handle the material necessary for preparing the 8th grade student for Calculus?
The CC has pushed back the Mathematics curriculum by one year, that is the 8th graders are asked to do 9th grade Algebra, but it is really pushing this information back 7 years into the k-7 curriculum. Will all of the teachers and students be able to handle this increase of mathematics into their curriculum? What will the student lose by the increase in Math?
There are many 9th grade students that struggle with Algebraic concepts, can we assume that all 8th graders will have the ability to handle these concepts?
The worst thing we could do is to test students and evaluate teachers on these concepts now before they have been “experimented with” and thoroughly implemented!
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Please spare us from double-talk like this:
“On-line learning can be a way to individualize instruction but …”
Stop right there, because you just blew by the Big Lie. No, it can’t be any such thing. Being assigned anything at all by a proprietary computer algorithm is as far away from individualized instruction as you can get.
This is a corporate hoax, forced marketing by mandate and intimidation. My own district got a “grant” to purchase hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of worthless professional development from the Pearson Flipped Learning Network, so I’m seeing it up close. Honest to God, I’m not opposed to progress or technology; this stuff is hot air that could never stand on its own. Nobody is going to adopt it for educational reasons, and the marketers have to deploy PR shills like Shepherd because there is no basis whatsoever for any educational claims being made for their bogus product. It’s all empty smoke and mirrors.
I have some web-based projects I’ve been working on that are truly transformative, but don’t make a dime for anybody. The fake reform industry is standing in our way at every turn. We can have a “respectful” discussion of computer learning when the corporate hacks get their heel off our necks, Robert D Shepherd. It looks to me like you’re mounting a campaign to promote mealy-mouthed complacency when outrage is the needed response.
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And maybe anti-trust? I want to know why it’s not anti-trust. I would like someone to ask some questions along those lines.
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Online instruction allows students to go beyond what can be reasonably offered in physical schools. The site “The Art of Problem Solving” offers courses in number theory and group theory, topics that are certainly accessible to high school students but not part of the curriculum for many high schools, especially the small rural high schools that are the majority of high schools in my state.
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teachingeconomist
I don’t know if we can all agree however if that’s the local decision then it’s the right one.
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How local?
I argue that the student and families themselves should make the decision, but not all agree it should be that local.
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Well, I’ve been called some interesting names over the years, but “PR shill” is a first! 🙂
I do understand the anger and frustration that motivates that sort of name-calling. There’s a lot of truly awful computer-based learning material out there. But, if you decide that you want to teach yourself statistics or symbolic logic or economics or chess or guitar making or literary theory or the philosophy of Martin Heidegger or how to grow peppers organically in your back yard, there are hundreds of online courses and online textbooks, many of them offered for free, many of them prepared by young, Internet-weaned college professors who have done their work for the love of learning and of their subjects. A friend of mine recently sent me an email asking for suggestions regarding free online courses. I sent her a six-page list and barely scratched the surface. Over the past few years, I’ve done a LOT of analysis of online K-12 education offerings, and yes, a lot of that material is simply dreadful. It’s mind-numbing worksheets on a screen or extraordinarily dumbed-down crap that treats learning as some sort of bitter pill that has to be swallowed with enormous doses of popular culture–you know what I mean–the embarrassing cartoon character pizza guy singing the fractions rap. And a lot of the supposed individuation in those programs isn’t at all. A lot of it doesn’t allow kids to follow their interests, for example, and merely scratches the surface when it comes to figuring out what they already know and doesn’t use assessment properly for formative and feedback purposes. There has been a lot more hype than real innovation in this area. So, the frustration that led to that name-calling is completely understandable to me. A lot of kids are being subjected to a lot of junk computerized instruction these days. I once had a professor say, “You don’t need me. Not since the invention of the printed press have people like me been necessary.” He was wrong about that, and those who think that we can do away with teachers now that we have the Internet are equally wrong. Learning at its best is a collaborative activity. Some of it CANNOT be learned by one’s self. No amount of computerized instruction, for example, will turn a non-wood-worker into an accomplished luthier. One needs to learn from a master, someone who can model for you how it is supposed to feel when you use a scraper to level a tone wood and point out how you can tell from the smell when that rosewood for the sides is getting too hot during bending.
The real revolution in online instruction hasn’t happened yet. Mostly, as I say, we’ve seen worksheets and textbooks on a screen with a few features tacked on. But there are innovations to come that will blow a lot of minds, and anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn’t thought much about the possibilities.
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teaching economist writes, “The site “The Art of Problem Solving” offers courses in number theory and group theory, topics that are certainly accessible to high school students but not part of the curriculum for many high schools, especially the small rural high schools that are the majority of high schools in my state.:” Yes Yes Yes. One of the truly exciting developments in recent years is that the Internet has enabled specialized publishing, once again. In my lifetime, we’ve seen a vast consolidation of print publishing companies and an entirely predictable narrowing of their offerings. But the net has allowed a hundred thousand flowers to bloom–like those courses on number theory and group theory–on everything from dirigible driving to raising petunias in one’s closet by candlelight. : ) All all that is really beautiful and valuable. Ours is a complex, pluralistic society. We need the many variants that people come in, and we need avenues by which they can develop their particular propensities. If a kid has heard the music of the spheres and fallen in love with mathematics, he or she should not be held back, forced to endure the standard curriculum.
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To release a major product revision of any sort whether software, cars, or Common Core standards, without controlled testing and trial studies is a fool’s folley. The Common Core Standards could very well be the New Coke of education.
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@ teachingeconomist
Agree. I’m not against online learning as a choice. If you’re concerned about your records being breached it’s possibly riskier w online learning. If that’s not a concern & it works for a learner, why not.
I don’t think it’s for children. That’s part of my concern about CCSS & it’s innovative, personalized learning & college to career software transmission.
We’re exposing kids to technology that may not be in the best interest of their physical well-being.
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I think this is part of the middle ground. For some students in some places, online learning may be better than the available alternatives.
Let me go a step further and suggest a student population that might be well served by online classes: high performing students in sparsely populated areas. Could we all agree that online classes could well be better for these students than any likely alternative?
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teachingeconomist
Are you a rural district? Rural schools don’t get enough of what they need.
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Compared to the coasts, I live in a small school district (LA Unified has more students than my very large square state), but it is e tenth largest in e state at 10,000 students.
Rural districts suffer from not being able to take advantage of returns to scale. The median high school in my state enrolls 250 students. Any student out of the ordinary will not be well served.
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Anytime someone uses the phrase “there’s been a lot of _____ on both sides,” you should ask for examples. That, or stop reading. Especially, if they capitalize the word BOTH, you should stop reading.
Some people want to paint themselves as being above the fray and therefore noble or disinterested. This is supposed to give them more credibility, but don’t be fooled.
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I don’t believe that Dr. Shepherd is speaking from a position of self interest. I agree with him, that there are people of good faith on both, (or many) sides of the debate. However, the time and money being wasted on high stakes testing must end before a true discussion can take place. There is no space for education professionals to participate in the debate as long as high stakes testing is used to silence their voice.
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Mr. Shepherd is speaking from a position of BOTH sides of bunk.
“Accountability” is code for dishonest mandates that force public schools to accept punishment and control by profiteers. The profiteers aren’t “well meaning”, even if you believe they are sincere in the theory that their own profit and power will somehow make education better in the long run, in spite of the damage they can’t even deny.
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Agreed rpilllala and unfortunately there has been little opportunity for debate and discussion. No amount of “education diplomacy” can deny that truth. It is the oublic’s responsibility to raise their voices when their voices are muffled.
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So long as this reformer nonsense is mandated in its dictatorial, top-down, “I have the money so I get to say what education is” fashion, then no, there is no “common ground” for any of it, Common Core included.
I am tired of being told what is “good teaching” from those who are outside of the profession yet position themselves to arrogantly impose.
Let those who would promote any and all reforms first put themselves in the classroom for a year demonstrating with their own lives how their miracle reforms “work.” If teaching really isn’t a profession in its own right, then all of these “talented” reformers should be able to show us their miracle-working power in a 10-month classroom stretch. Let’s start with Bill Gates and David Coleman. And put Michelle Rhee in there for as long as she can stay, until her imminent incarceration, but be sure that she is supervised, and give her no tape for children’s mouths.
And let them be paid actual teacher salaries for that year. And let them be required to live for a year only on that salary.
Let them enroll their children in the schools mandating their supposed reforms. Let them advertise their children’s experiences in true “reality TV” fashion. No demonstration, no mandated reforms.
There is no “common core.” There is only a “privileged corps.”
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Exactly right, thanks for another brilliant response to the notion of good will on both sides. Dr. Shepherd sounds like a person of good will who is extremely uncomfortable with the rash, untested, arrogant impositions of high-stakes testing so profitable to corps. like Pearson, and through which govt. officials like Jindal, Emanuel, Cuomo, Christie, etc., make whimsical decisions to disrupt communities, families, kids, and teachers, none of whom send their own kids to pub schls. The opposition consolidated by the brilliant work of Dr. Ravitch has not done any damage to pub schls, kids, teachers, or families, so to represent the issue as good will on both sides is unfortunately to define a moral equivalence of power and action which simply does not exist. The unholy alliance of govt, big biz, and billionaires has been on a warpath to seize the vast assets of pub schls and segregate them so that one huge chunk of under-regulated and overfunded pvt charter schls operates with a free hand to score profits while the other chunk of over-regulated and under-funded “regular” pub schls operates with 2 hands tied behind its back. The sides are nakedly drawn here, leaving no middle ground to play in a phantom middle.
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I’m not sure I understand the point of Mr. Shepard’s writing here. As Diane points out in a post above, in Florida Jeb Bush and his foundation are working hand in hand with Michelle Rhee to pass a “parent trigger” law and they are using underhanded, dishonest, dirty political tactics to get their way. This is normal operating procedure for them and many of the reformers today, as has been documented extensively throughout the education blogosphere.
Is Mr. Shepard saying that by pointing out these disgusting tactics that those opposing them are not playing fair also? Or is he making a tone argument to silence those whose voices are not normally a part of these lofty, ivory tower debates, as was tradition? I am always extremely wary of those who call for civility and calm dialogue when the stakes do not personally affect them or their livelihood. Does Mr. Shepard face the loss of employment, a teaching license, or reputation under the tactics of the reformers and VAM as all we who teach face? It is easy to sit on a perch and decry the messiness and ugliness of things that will not hurt you personally but it spoken from a position of privilege and detachment.
It would be nice to live in a world where everyone just gets along but that is not our world. Anyone who has paid any attention to US politics for the last 2 decades or engages with the corporate media knows this. Scroll down and read the story about the teacher who was escorted from his classroom and threatened with dismissal due to a reform-minded snitch and tell me that the teachers are equally guilty in this debate.
Who can you name from the reform camp that has suffered similar public humiliation and threats of ruin? Very, very few indeed. Most fall upward into even better paying sinecures no matter their record of failure, obfuscation, outright deception, or underhanded tactics. Real teacher are losing real jobs and real careers are being destroyed while the reformers rake in their billions.
This is hardly a “fair” fight on a level playing field so calling for Marquess of Queensbury rules at this stage seems naieve at best. We are fighting for our very survival and our opponents are not nice and don’t play fair and they have most of the money and the resources and political and corporate support. Best we acknowledge that going in so we can protect ourselves rather than make ourselves martyrs in the name of civility.
If Mr. Shepard simply wants to create a space where various ideas can be explored in a risk-free, calm, dignified space I wish him luck. That space does not exist in modern America and if it is created it will be infiltrated and manipulated quite easily by those with the power and means to do so. I wish it were otherwise but it is not.
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Chris: you and others have made some very good points.
Let me respond to your very first sentence.
The main thrust of the actual [not theoretical or fantasy or sometime-in-the-distant-future] charterite/privatizer movement relies heavily on a [as Carol Corbett Burris so felicitously put it] ‘fear and fire’ model of achieving [alleged] excellence. An added feature characterized many of President George W. Bush Jr.’s advisers and point ‘men’ on Iraq and the War on Terror: “kiss up and kick down.” Some posters on this blog and elsewhere would add terms like ‘top-down management’ and ‘leadership by inexperience’ and so on.
So what happens when some folks like Mr. Shepherd feel it is necessary to criticize—however gently—the education establishment? Such critics know perfectly that the lofty objects of their criticisms don’t play by Marquess of Queensbury rules and are used to shooting back first and asking questions later whenever they feel under attack. So the criticisms are softened in order to mollify the promoters and defenders of the status quo. They do this in large part by claiming that everybody engages in lots of exaggeration and spin and lies. Hence, it’s about time we all admitted that the Very Important People have lots of good points and a few bad ones while the vast majority [=us] have a couple of good points and lots of bad points and the discussion could proceed forward if only we would accept nine of their points to every one of ours. You know, just like a normal business transaction between unequals…
But there’s a hitch. On Planet Reality we understand that kids aren’t widgets and teachers & school staff aren’t VAManiacal expressions of untrustworthy mathematical formulae and that a pillar of democracy shouldn’t be up for sale and that the true heroes and experts in education are usually found in the classrooms and schools.
They are shown themselves to be incapable of understanding—or even imagining—a profound truth of learning and teaching: “Education is not the filling of a bucket but the lighting of a fire.” [William Butler Yeats]
Let me add one final comment. I don’t envy Mr. Shepherd his [IMHO, awkward] position in the ed debates; I simply disagree with what I perceive as his lukewarm stance on a key issue. If he feels that I have mischaracterized him [and in poking a little fun at someone else’s opinions there is inevitably a bit of exaggeration], I welcome his clarifications because I sincerely encourage him to continue to express his opinions.
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Robert,
You wrote: “I believe in standards.”
I know I asked this in another topic/entry but let me personalize it a little. What is your definition of “standard”? What is your definition of “educational standard”? Do your definitions jive with contemporary meanings? How are your “educational standards” measured? Or are they meant to be the measuring device? Can they be both? If so, how? Who is privileged to determine/define such “standards”? What qualifications does it take to be able to be so privileged?
Thanks, in advance, for your response!
Duane
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Duane, I LOVE that you keep asking this question because it is SO very important!!!! Please keep it up, every chance you get!!! I am very, very serious about this. There are SO MANY DIFFERENT ways of conceptualizing what a standard might be that haven’t even been considered!!!
I’ve come to loathe mandatory “standards” because they tend to represent received thinking, to reflect mediocre, unimaginative thinking, because they are Procrustean beds, because they stifle innovation, and it’s darkly humorous that people should tout their mediocrities as the new rigor.
What I like instead of these blanket lists of skills and concepts to be mastered are vast numbers of competing and domain-specific models of excellence. Here’s one way of being a guitar making. It’s Robert Benedetto’s way. Here’s what HE knows. If you want to be like that, to be like him, then master that body of fact and procedural knowledge that he has. But there are other ways of being a great guitar-builder. Benedetto, like all masters, will be the first to tell you, mind is not THE way.
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I’d have to say that I agree with Robert Shepard. From this post yesterday, https://dianeravitch.net/2013/04/27/john-thompson-what-did-the-billionaires-know-and-when-did-they-know-it/, I listened to the video by Liz Coleman in the comment section, and I agreed with her too.
I can see three big problems with the common core as it stands.
One, to do it right will cost trillions of dollars, is that in the budget? A star wars missile shield was a cool idea, except for the price tag.
Two, impatience. Boeing had a great idea, the 787 carbon fiber airliner. They said it would be done in 2008. If they had filled it up with people and gas and hurled it at the end of the runway in 2008, it would have ended in disaster. Why is the common core trying to fly before it is finished? Who wants an impatient surgeon? Isn’t a mile wide, and inch deep, and slapped together in two seconds, the philopsphy that the common core is designed to avoid, yet it has become a parody of itself, cheap, rushed, and sloppy.
Three, what is the proper degree of evaluation. Standardized testing for anyone under eight is child abuse. It’s in the US constitution under self evident truths.
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Beautifully said, TC.
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I’m tired of feeling like the abuse suffered by children, parents and teachers is just collateral damage in the free market battle. We were ignored until collective voices of protest began to emerge. Diane has been a key player in bringing the little guy closer to the table. Now the power brokers want to talk nice? What is it that George B. always says? I got tired of reading it and now I can’t repeat it verbatim, but let me borrow another aphorism as a substitute: “Actions speak louder than words.”
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It would have been nice if the other side started with a discussion instead of heavy handed uninformed stupidity. They set the scene. They want to totally control the so-called discussion without any other input all the way to the prez. Could anyone really argue that this is not true? So they have declared war on sanity and our standards of real public education. That automatically means that we must declare war on them to get anywhere as they respect nothing but power in return. Fear is the only tool available now as anyone who really knows politics understands is this “When reason does not work on a politician only Fear of not being reelected works.” Remember, whether you like or not “FEAR.” You can play in the fantasy world if you want to and have been doing but until people wake up to the game at hand this will not end. This game is or the highest of all stakes. The total future of us all, except for those at the very top as it is structured now.
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Well said, George. Discussion can’t happen at the point of a gun. That’s why VAM has to go. It’s a very, very bad, very dangerous, very authoritarian, anti-democratic, and (ironically) anti-free-market idea.
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George,
Please define “our standards of real public education”. What do you mean by that statement? Without definition it becomes another platitude just like “poverty doesn’t matter” or “all children can learn”.
Thanks in advance,
Duane
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quote from post:
“”My personal position is that where there is competition between models, innovation occurs, and so I don’t like blanket prescriptions and blanket, top-down mandates from the left or the right.”
Most everything in the posted opinion I could live with ; but, this is where I disagree. I cannot accept your personal position. The sense of “competition” has become so extreme and market driven that it is impossible for me to compromise. the extreme example I can site is in the Boston Globe. It is not appropriate for me to put the Boston Globe coverage of corruption here. When we have so much competition for the same dollars (I am thinking starting from the local to federal) it does not permit “compromise” . I have felt this as a personal assault on my values since the 1980s. It has become even more extreme since that time. Policy for public education should not be determined by who you have to beat out. In 1954 it was Russia and funds were found for that purpose; in reforms later, the reform literature actually showed “we must beat ” (please excuse the pejorative terms here) the Japs. It seems like the only way to find funding for educational purposes is to build up a campaign that we must compete (beat up) somebody. I see value in education beyond that purpose and beyond the purposes set forth by the Chambers of Commerce. We have an extreme culture where the mid-size cities compete in football. It is an extreme ideology that the personal position represents and I don’t feel I can compromise. Perhaps education was constructed to defeat that “old deluder Satan”….. but human nature being what it is we need to be vigilant of corruption wherever it appears . My definition of corruption is those who “steal” public funds for their own purpose (cf. the Boston Globe ) or those who “sell snake oil” to unsuspecting citizens and in this case it is the marketing claim that my IT services can “make your teachers more productive.” I am not a luddite. My first computer was a CRT screen and a teletype keyboard. When the tail begins to wag the dog it is time to revise our thinking.
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There is so much here to digest and consider. I do think I am on the side(s) of those who are expressing that when the power is largely in one camp it seemingly is every other camp that is encouraged to compromise–and this feels very paternalistic. I do know this–testing is out of hand when it comprises 1/3 of the learning time, accountability is out of hand when it prevents building trusting relationships, schooling is out of hand when the only goal is an economic one, and it is going to take something other than innovation to reach the place where encouraging young people to become teachers makes sense.
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Common Core or any other thoughtful “standards” are not the problem. Neither are assessments which help teachers evaluate their own effectiveness and assist in their planning. The problem is the HIGH STAKES and the punitive policies.
Many secondary teachers approve of CC. Lower elementary not so much… and they may well be developmentally inappropriate. Time will tell, but in the mean time, authentic and well paced assessments will help move us forward, NOT HIGH STAKES!
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“Computer based learning” is a misnomer. If the material is unchanged and the method is unchanged then there is no change between a book and a computer. The idea that a computer can be as responsive and engaging as a teacher for the purpose of learning is where the difference lies, and to me the fact that so many computer based programs seek to emulate gaming to maintain interest is an admission of failure. Making your way through a game like screen environment by solving problems is not the same as being engaged and excited by the material for it’s own sake. So far, computer based programs bear the most resemblance to making your way through and automated menu on the phone.
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I think the strongest case for online classes (certainly a blend of computer and human interaction over the internet) is when there is no engaging teacher as an alternative.
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