Earlier I posted about the Ford Foundation’s plan to extend the school day for thousands of students.
This seems to be modeled on charter schools staffed by young college graduates who are unmarried and can work nine-hour days, then do their class preparation in the evening. They burn out after two or three years and move on, to be replaced by other fresh-faced youngsters.
But this teacher has a problem. She has children too, and she asks:
And what about the needs of working teachers? When do I get to be a mom and help and be with my OWN kids? Do my children have to go to after school care because I have to be at an extended day? Why are my children being punished for my decision to be a teacher?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Additionally, students are not staying in school for the entire day as it is. At the NYC HS where I used to teach, students literally just walked out of the building at any time they pleased. Attendance in the afternoon was abysmal; one day I had 11/50 9th graders for a period 9 class (before 3pm)! Longer school days are a sure-fire way to lower attendance and graduation rates in our high schools.
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Once again, this is a feature, not a bug. The rheeformers want teaching to be something one goes into young and naive and burns out of before one would gain enough experience to be pesky.
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There is probably a Fair Labor Standards Act violation in this plan somewhere. Yesterday I asked whether there would be increased pay for the additional 7.5 weeks teachers are suddenly required to work, got silence from everyone.
“9-1/2 Weeks” was a soft-porn movie. 7.5 weeks is a sort of snuff movie, but in not-yet-filmed documentary style.
And then there is this: We’re being told by so many that teachers are the problem, we’re incompetent and don’t teach well. So, what sort of a solution is it to require students who are failing to spend 7.5 more weeks with incompetent teachers?
There must be a lot more details we don’t know, because the proposal as I’ve learned about it makes absolutely no sense at all. Has a psychiatrist been called to diagnose the people who came up with this?
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Aside from how it works for the adults, my husband taught in a quasi-academic summer camp/school situation where he learned that kids really, really can’t stay focused for a long day, and start bouncing off the walls.
The private summer camp (located at a rented public school) is billed as being for gifted and talented students and is not cheap, so to some extent self-selects for students who want to be there and are prepared. The program officially runs about 4 morning hours, and then has add-ons in different fun subjects, at extra cost, for parents who need the child care. My husband taught afternoon add-ons, 4th- and 5th-graders, in chess, journalism and harmonica. There are different choices of subjects, so the kids presumably come in with an interest in that particular subject.
Even with that degree of self-selection and predetermined interest in the subject, he learned that many kids really struggle with that long day and are done, or even melting down, by the last add-on. He gave extra outdoor activity time, and that only helped so much.
As usual, the “solution” of longer school days is conceived by folks who have no contact with kids or schools — it all sounds good from their lofty height.
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Inherent in all these whoopdy-doo much ballyhooed reform ideas such as the longer school day and non-stop standardized testing, is a basic disrespect, loathing and near hatred of the traditional public school unionized teacher. These teachers have no place at the table where these ideas are hatched, they have no say how these ideas will be implemented but will share all the responsibility if these ideas of the deformers flop and fail. It’s a win win for the deformers, they carpet bomb the schools with their ill conceived ideas but bear no responsibility if their ideas, well, bomb. Just blame the teachers, they are the designated scapegoat of the 21st century. When in doubt, blame traditional public school teachers, works like a charm every time. Chris Christie has become the hero of NJ by demonizing teachers and their unions.
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The extended day and school year notion is based on the idea teachers are nothing but a bunch of lazy, overpaid slobs who work only six hours a day, nine months out of the year. Never mind they are paid only for their contracted hours and they put in many, many hours of unpaid time. WHERE is the time going to be for lesson planning and paperwork? Teachers would be working until midnight or two in the morning trying to catch up.
Besides, kids are wiped out mentally by the time 3:00 rolls around. There are also summer school programs and after-school tutoring for students who need it. Mandatory 9-5 garbage is destructive.
But, hey, one of the people who was quoted as saying it was a good idea sees teaching as nothing more than a babysitting service for the convenience of working parents. He all but said that.
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I am in my classroom ten hours most days and I “only” teach second grade. There is no more blood to squeeze out of this turnip.
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The Carrot is gone due to budget cuts. However, the Stick is present. I feel it on my back every day. And it’s getting larger. Right now it’s the size of a baseball bat.
Teaching is a job that entails a minimum of forty hours a week to complete. None of which can be accomplished with students in the room, however. Now anyone about to compare their job with mine (“In the real world…”), consider first this simple scenario: imagine needing to do all that you need to do in order to meet the expectations of your job. All the responsibilities. Everything. Now imagine being unable to do any of it for about six of your “working” hours per day. Per day! Times five = thirty hours a week. After working those thirty hours, only THEN do you get to work on the other forty. Now imagine someone-who doesn’t even do your job-recommending more time be given to students.
You feeling the Stick yet?
You see, disregarding time for meetings (all which add even more responsibilities and expectations, while some meetings are simply about out meetings themselves!) and professional development (own time/own dime), as well as duties, planning, grading, communication of all kinds, preparation and cleanup of materials, etc., etc., freaking etc., is a complete disconnect and lack of respect for a teacher’s time. Unless you are in this job, you just don’t seem to get it. It’s not bitching and whining. It’s reality. I can’t get any of this work done with kids in the room. Problem is, the kids are why I’m here.
The sum of this asinine equation is simple: adding more time for kids to be in the room just equals more time I have to take away from my personal life (read: family) to get all the other shit done.
Here’s an idea: let’s keep the kids until 6:00 pm. Think of the gains! How about 7:00?
Again, you don’t get to do all the other stuff until kids actually leave your presence. Don’t forget that. It doesn’t go away, and the time must come from somewhere. Already told you where it will be.
Please answer this or shut up–why are all of these solutions to ‘fix’ my job coming from people who not only don’t do my job, but also are in no way affected by the effects of such damn suggestions/decisions?
Also, I appreciate Ed actually doing the math on this one. Remember folks, every single minute added to your day adds up to another hour, another day, another week to your school year. And the money to pay for this is coming from where? The budget you just cut? The raise I haven’t received for more than four years now? How does that work exactly? This is, of course, presuming you’re in it for the money. To me, time is so much more important. And I’m wise enough and experienced enough to know that it cannot be invented.
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Very well said, henrychale. I can feel your frustration. I know exactly what you are talking about. Nobody seems to get this. Why? It’s too obvious to be an oversight, so it’s got to be part of the plan to dismantle public education.
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For children in high poverty schools, frequently in high crime neighborhoods schools with wraparoupund services with a longer school day and longer school year make sense.
Teachers should be appropriately remunerated and have the choice to teach in the setting. The NYC Chancellor’s District that is widely looked on as a successful approach to low achieving schools had a longer school day, longer school year, higher salaries and was voluntary for teachers.
School structure by time and content should be driven by researchthat says what is best for kids, not the teachers
Of course simply increasing seat time does not guarantee improvement, what we do in the classroom during the increased time is what matters.
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This is what makes no sense. NYC has cut the funding for after school programs like the championship chess team at IS 318 in Williamsburg, which is celebrated in the film “Brooklyn Castle.” Will the Ford money be available to continue the chess program, or will it be used to hire tutors? Or what?
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No, it doesn’t make sense. Kids in poor neighorhoods need to be kids, not test-taking drones.
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Nurses work 12 hour shifts, but only work 3 days per week. Teachers? We do not. States can’t afford to pay us for longer days and a longer school year. Money aside, it is not developmentally appropriate for school age children to spend MORE time at school. We are NOT babysitters for busy or lazy parents. In my opinion, the 21st century classroom should be “flipped” – where time with teachers is precious, and used for application only…labs, projects etc. Test taking, research, independent practice and reading should take place at home or in a study center. Modern technology has made these long school days obsolete…and the kids know it. They are bored because they have been groomed since early childhood for independent, personalized technological interaction – thanks to their i-Touches, PSP’s and other tricked out technology given to them as toddlers. Researchers, politicians and big business have been making blind decisions for the US educational system for the past 30 years. 30 years ago, teachers were the ones helping to shape policy and craft legislation. Back then, the US was the #1 educational system in the world. It makes no more sense to have non-educators making policy for schools than it does to have non-medical personnel making policy for hospitals. I’m in the classroom with these kids every day. Ask ME. I know what their needs are. I’m the expert on these matters, not someone at an ivy league school doing research or a lobbyist for a big textbook company or, even worse, a lawyer!. And for the record? Most weeks, I DO work at least three 12 hour days. And I still can’t seem to get that last set of papers graded to save my soul…
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I fail to see the benefit to children if they have exhausted teachers with frayed nerves from having little down time or family time. I fear these extra minutes will be used for more drill and kill instruction, but they have the potential to be much more than that: reinstated music, art, and other specials and extra collaboration/planning time for teachers immediately come to mind. Maybe create after school learning clubs taught by others than the classroom teachers. If my day is extended, I will no longer do any school work outside of my contractual day.
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We would not have to have extended days of we cut out the time we spend preparing for standardized tests. Easily add 30 days just in Texas!
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By no means am I an expert but here are some thoughts that occurred to me.
1. Working parents are the people who benefit most from an extended day. As it stands, children leave school at 3 or so. Many times (especially in disadvantaged communities where parents can not spend the thousands of dollars on extracurricular activities that more affluent families can) these kids go home to an empty house, or just hang out on the streets. There is a reason that most juvenile crime happens between the hours of 3 and 6 PM. I can only speak for myself, but when I was a kid most of my “risk behavior” took place right after school.
2. Regarding compensation. If you watched the webcast of the event it seemed like the funds were to be used primarily to pay teachers and form partnerships with community nonprofits. Union representatives from many of the districts involved were present. Also, in many of the schools, teachers will not be asked to work 9 hours, but instead opt into a staggered schedule (coming in late and leaving late or vice versa).
3. As some one who works in afterschool education, it bums me out to hear it referred to as punishment.
4. As a country, we need to emphasize on full school improvement. This means smaller classes; more mental health and social service professionals; and increased parent involvement in schools. A longer (and fairly compensated) day may help to accomplish these goals if done right.
5. Whether or not people realize it, their students really are already involved in an extended day. Whether it be drama or sports or arts, many students (especially students whose parents can afford to pay for such things) already are involved in activities that extend well beyond 5PM. If we use extended time to bring back some of these subjects that have been pushed out by the high-stakes testing culture, it may help to provide these activities to students whose families don’t have the resources to provide them independently; I find nothing objectionable about that.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Ford apologist. I do think, however, that a small, experimental, collaboration that is being paid for privately but working within in the traditional public school framework is something to be encouraged. I’ve attended public school my whole life, from Headstart to diploma, and I love public schools. But seeing enemies everywhere and decrying every privately-funded initiative as a part of the corporate assault on public education does damage to our argument. Let’s focus on the real threats to public education, and not look for fault in strategies (like extending the day) just for the sake of finding fault.
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Teaching is not a babysitting service, despite what Ford and the rest of them think. Let parents work around the school schedule, and not the other way around.
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Enrichment activities should be done during the school day.
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American students are institutionalized. It sickens me to see parents dropping their kids off in the dark at an hour and a half before school starts and have some school employee feed them their breakfast. My high school freshmen stay up half the night, with their parents’ knowledge, and then drool on the desk sleeping in class all day.They get their lunch out of the candy and coke machines and walk around like zombies. I sent a girl to the office today to change her revealing tank top. I asked if her mom saw her leave in the morning dressed in that shirt. She said that her mom NEVER sees her off in the morning. Let’s start the dialogue about what teachers see at school. Kids are left at the doorsteps of our schools like little orphans…and then parents expect to pick them up as happy, healthy and whole human beings. It just doesn’t work that way…
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There is a lot of good science that shows we are simply starting high schools too early for adolescents. There is a physiological explanation for why adolescents naturally go to sleep later than children or adults.
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I agree with you about the problems of institutionalization. I have taught homeless children, children with severe special needs, and juvenile offenders. These kids (and often times their families) kick around from system to system. The social services system, to the juvenile justice system… to the school system. Planned and executed correctly, ELT can work to make a school community out of a school system (take a look at the story about the Newark Global Village School Zone that was posted earlier).
I don’t think anybody is talking about lining these kids up in rows and having more drill baby drill. ELT is about staggering schedules, increasing planning time,and collaborating with community-based nonprofits to provide high-need students with the opportunities that their wealthier peers have bought for them. It’s important to remember that in many of these communities if such enrichment doesn’t take place afterschool in the school building… well then it just ain’t happening. If you want to say we should eliminate the high-stakes testing that pushed these things out in the first place, then that is an argument that makes sense to me (although you would still need free, high-quality afterschool programming).
I live and work in a resource-poor community (Newark) and youth-serving extracurricular programs (youth theaters, dance studios, art classes, etc.) are hard to find outside of the school setting even if a family could afford to pay for them.
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Naturally, TN is one of five states chasing the Ford grant.
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Does anyone remember the short movie about a take-over by a totalitarian dictatorship and what it’s doing to a classroom of small children? Eventually, the new “teacher” announces that the school is now so wonderful that the children will live there. And most of the children have been so rapidly brainwashed that they think it’s a great idea. I saw that movie in a class at my university twenty years ago, and it made my blood run cold even then. I can’t remember the title, but this sure is starting to sound like that film.
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The Wave, I believe.
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The extended day, extended year, larger classes, burn out and so forth is not limited to the schools. Just about every business activity where there is a salary, you will see this kind of pressure. Why? Because it creates a better bottom line.
I’ve not seen an instance where all this pressure created better graduates.
I have read of instances where better school scores were the result of administrators working late at night with a #2 pencil and eraser. Such activity does not receive the attention it should. Nor are statistics kept.
I have gone to numerous institutes and heard the phrase, “Research shows.” I have yet to see that research.
I really believe that the longer school day and in many instances of busing, the result is to keep the children supervised longer. Then the parents will be able to work a longer day and not worry so much about daycare.
I’ve read about the reforms. I’ve suffered through reforms. But, I have not seen an improvement in test scores.
If I was given all those hours of testing knowing that I would never be graded or given credit, I would blow the test off myself.
At one time, my high school had a daily homeroom with required activities. There was no grade or credit given. Most students did not want to do the activities. Many wanted to go to the library to prepare for something else and so forth. It was one of my most difficult classes in 38 years.
At report card time, I was shocked to see that this group was elite. They received many letters from advance class teachers for exceeding expectations and so forth. They were almost all honor roll.
Of course, my experience was not echoed by other teachers for homeroom, tardy, staying on task and so forth.
I did my own research by substituting one period here or there in classes where things were reported to be going so well. By observing the students and checking what was available in the room, I in fact found out many of these teachers lied in order to meet school expectations.
Problems cannot be solved by not identifying the problem.
We have a school system designed to fail and in many cases there is a huge cover up.
My own children went to a neighborhood grammar public school. They did well and grew up to become high level functioning adults because of their education.
Through the wisdom of the school board, busing was instituted so that “All the third grade teachers could compare notes because they would all be in the same building.” I never saw that as a concern because most of those classes were mostly self contained. But by busing the small children had to stand in the winter snow for the bus. They were away from home for an extra 2 hours a day. The children were not available for tutoring, counseling and extra activities after school. The school scores are slipping downward even though the day was extended and the school year was made longer.
According to the budget, busing is 11% and would be the last thing to be cut.
There was never a problem with school over crowding or creating racial balance that may have justified busing.
I went to a neighborhood grammar school. Then a high school of over 2,000 students. Looking back upon that and my 38 years at that same school teaching,(51 years in the same school district) I can only see where reforms have moved us backwards.
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Gotta keep that assembly line running…
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Despite vague reassurances from the mayor, governor, or chancellor, the longer day will not come with a persistent increase in budget for wraparound services for all students. Or even the neediest students. And it will have very little, if anything, for teachers’ extra time.
Because the money is headed to the online curriculum, testing and technology companies. It will not be available for teachers or services. Those are the only results I have been able to see in this particular “reform.”
This added time
— gives online companies the class time to exploit a revenue opportunity;
— lets districts cut union teachers through larger class sizes;
— fosters churn among union teachers b/c of long working hours, lowering future pension obligations; and
— eliminates a main distinction between traditional and charter schools, blurring the “choice” for parents.
Is this why Gates has spent a million dollars on the development of the galvanic skin bracelet to see if the children are engaged? I wonder.
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There’s no question that both teachers and students are usually done at 2:30 emotionally and intellectually. Teachers are also usually ending hour 8 of a workday by about that time (assuming they show up at 7 and leave at 3). So, it does make sense to critique an idea that simply plans to tack on 2 additional hours to the end of a school day without additional staffing, schedule restructuring, etc. However, the idea of the extended school day and additional structure is probably worth trying to work through and consider options.
For example, consider how some schools have structured extended school years – teachers don’t simply lose summer, but they gain intermediary breaks of 2-3 weeks throughout the school year. Except for losing the ability to get a summer job, teachers often like this structure better from my experience.
The example of extended school year is offered to suggest that the idea of the extended school year is worth thinking about further given the potential benefit to kids.
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EdEd,
Are you currently a teacher in a classroom?
Like most things, altered/extended schedules sound good on paper. Here’s reality:
In my experience of twenty years in the classroom, I actually look forward to these ‘breaks’ (winter, spring, weekends, etc.) because they provide me with the time to make some headway in getting caught up on all the non-student work this job involves. You see, there’s just not enough time in the REGULAR schedule to meet all expectations and responsibilities and teach 62 sixth graders. Keep in mind, however, this simply means I am sacrificing those personal/family times. They’re not breaks.
Your suggestion will result in teachers who will be forced to work during each of those 2-3 week periods just to maintain some semblance of control over their non-student contact time responsibilities. Do you logically think for a moment, somebody somewhere behind a desk won’t think up more crap for us to do during that time? It’s already happening! This is fine, but let’s call it what it is.
When do teachers attend mandatory professional development, or work their necessary second/third job, or chase down all students not in class or completing assignments because they themselves are on a family trip, attending sports camp, or working their own job/family obligation (babysitting siblings, etc.)?
Of course, altered/extended schedules do nothing to solve the very real problem identified at the onset of this conversation: teachers having their own lives outside the parameters of this job.
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henrychale – I’ve held a number of positions over the years, both inside and outside the classroom. You raise very valid points, all of which are relevant to the discussion. Most teachers I’ve spoken with actually prefer the extended school year option, so there seems to be opinion on both sides of the equation. Certainly, this is not a “slam dunk” argument in favor of extended school day.
It’s important to keep in mind that most of the issues you raise are not with the concept of extended school day/year, but poor implementation of it. For example, when 2-3 week breaks occur, you suggest that admin might find additional assignments for teachers. In fact, this is not how it has occurred from my experience, but it certainly is a possibility, and one that arises when considering how to implement an initiative. Of course, if implementation issues are insurmountable, that might lead folks to decide that the idea is not good because it can’t be appropriately implemented, but the idea you’ve suggested here is simply a possibility – not an automatic condition of extended school year, or even the most probable one.
Let’s consider this possibility – what if additional support personnel were hired during the afternoons (e.g., from local colleges) to work with small groups of students for an hour while teachers had a break, planning time, or time for team meetings? What if extended day were offered only for low-achieving students, with outside tutors hired in collaboration with a community organization? In that case, teachers wouldn’t be expected to work.
In other words, let’s be creative folks rather than immediately shooting down ideas simply because there are some drawbacks. Maybe extended day doesn’t make sense, but I’ve yet to see a reasonable, informed discussion here – simply an immediate attack and dismissal.
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Taking on the RTTT money has availed teachers in Title I schools in “restructuring” to the waste of time called ELT. Extended Learning Time. What a crock. Teachers get a final 50 minutes of students from ….. wherever. Students are from different academies on campus, can be of various grade levels in one classroom, and most often have no connection to teachers’ curriculum for their subject areas. It’s 50 minutes of behavioral management. Yes, we are paid for the extra 50 minutes (Mon. through Thurs.). But the consensus amongst teachers is that this extra time in school is a waste of money. Of course, even with the extra money in our paycheck, we work without a contract (last contract expired in 2009)) while the governor (having evaded federal mediation by walking away from the meetings) and his appointed board of education determine public schools in high poverty would be better served by private, corporate personnel rather than us costly teachers, and our union. But, then, the media has propagandized most people into believing that public school teachers are failures. TFA’s are showing up with increasing frequency. ALEC sponsored education policy forces the issue to a take it or leave it situation. There will be many casualties as even great teachers move on to something else.
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I was horrified to hear Arne Duncan give what he considered to be another important reason for extending the school day in ‘troubled’ schools. He stated that the hours between 3pm and 7 pm were the hours when children get shot in the USA. Keeping them at school, he says, keeps them safe. There is a more profound problem than test scores in our society.
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But never forget, poverty is no excuse!
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This is more Duncan claptrap — the hours between 3 pm and 7 pm. Does he think their moms all call them in for dinner at 6:30 pm?
It’s just not true.
And let’s say for a scant minute that it were true, and now school gets out at 4:30 pm. Would the killings will simply shift to 4:30 to 8:30 pm?
Yes, of course, if it were true.
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Oh I don’t doubt for a minute it’s a bunch of claptrap. I just find it fascinating how Duncan can so glibly talk out of both sides of his as-, er, mouth. If teachers bring up the issue of kids getting shot to explain, at least in part, why lower SES kids don’t score as well on standardized tests, Duncan would be the first to say that’s making “excuses”. But when it serves his purpose, he’s so very concerned about kids getting shot. Um hm.
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It actually is true.
http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/offenders/qa03301.asp
Disagree with Arne Duncan over his policies/philosophy (as I do) but I would recommend against dismissing statistical realities simply because you disagree with the man who cites them. The fact is there is something about those hours that make juvenile crime spike; it seems the lack of supervision probably has something to do with it.
Your point about crime merely shifting later is, I suppose, still valid. Personally, however, I would need to see some evidence to share you conviction.
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Schools aren’t babysitting services. Parents need to make their own arrangements.
Duncan is a moron.
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I agree. That is why I disagree with part of the original post arguing that a problem with extended hours is that teacher’s need to be able to be with their own children. Parents need to make their own arrangements, dealing with the constraints of their jobs.
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But if any extended day programs are the responsibility of someone other than teachers (who have to do a bunch of grading and clerical work after school anyway), then teachers won’t need to “make…arrangements dealing with the constraints of their jobs,” because those parents can be home with their own children in the evenings.
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I agree that the extended day could be implemented in a variety of ways, some better and some worse.
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I spent years criticizing teachers for their easy job, cushy hours and undeserved tenure. That was before I became one at the age of 40. I was wrong in every conceivable way! If you are not a teacher, it is simply impossible to understand the demands of the job. I am so frustrated that people outside our profession feel qualified to diagnose educational problems, determine what is best for our children in the classroom, and recommend or even mandate policy. Extended hours are not going to help. However, improving curriculum and instruction during regular school hours will.
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And herein lies the problem of overgeneralization against all current reforms:
“The extended day and school year notion is based on the idea teachers are nothing but a bunch of lazy, overpaid slobs who work only six hours a day, nine months out of the year.” – susannunes
The concept of extended school day has its roots in the research showing that one of the most important components of academic achievement is academic engaged time. By extending time during the day, you extend academic engaged time (assuming kids are engaged). While there is no doubt a debate about whether the hours of 3-5 make for good instructional time, I have never – in my career – heard someone advocate for extended school day because teachers were lazy. If anyone has any evidence of that – including susannues – please include.
I mentioned this on a previous thread/post on this blog, but I’m starting to notice a pattern of blindly rejecting all educational initiatives without any discussion of positive merits, and to believe that every single educational initiation that doesn’t involve telling teachers “Good job, keep on doing what you’re doing” is the product of corporate reforms determined to privatize and undermine education.
I’d like to ask folks who post here regularly – where is the healthy debate? Where is the consideration of potential benefits to initiatives such as extended school day, and consideration of how to potentially mitigate negative effects? Is there no one reading this that finds it important to consider the benefits of extended school day, even if the ultimate decision were to not support it?
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It’s strange to me that when reading the comments about the Newark Global Village School Zone (a major component of which was ELT) I see it presented as this great project that was killed by a reform-happy administration (I agree). Then I see ELT portrayed in the comments of this story as the new cause celebre of narrow-minded TFAers bent on crushing our unions (which I’m skeptical of). Like Ms. Ravitch, I used to like the taste of reform kool aid, then I saw the light. But back in my reform-minded days, you can bet that this inconsistent treatment of ELT would of been something I pointed to and said “You see! They don’t hate the ideas, they hate that they’re not getting credit for them!”
All this is to say, that generalized disapproval of a strategy as diverse as ELT is bound to create head-scratching contradictions.
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The push for the longer school day is predicated upon the belief that certain types of parents can’t parent, and that their children need to be raised by others. You don’t find reformers pushing for a longer school day in white, upper-income communities. The whole thing stinks of classism and racism.
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By that logic, there would be no difference at all between approaches to education in impoverished community, blatantly disregarding need for differentiation. In fact, to ignore problems in those communities by treating them the same as every other community would be a greater expression of classism and racism than to address it directly.
Also, there is a fundamental difference between the belief that parents “can’t” engage in certain parenting behaviors, and the recognition that they “aren’t.” Whether some parents can or can’t do certain things such as provide close assistance with homework, some do and some don’t. A school then has a choice as to how to respond – to recognize gaps in support provided to children, or not.
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EdEd,
So you are suggesting it is right to assume that all parents in poor ethnic neighborhoods aren’t properly parenting?
I have a problem with this. I have a problem with the notion that the only way to “save” children in these neighborhoods is to let them spend as few waking hours as possible with their parents and to instead make them spend as much time as possible with young, white, upper middle income TFA missionaries.
It reminds me of the boarding schools set up for Native Americans over a century ago. The idea was to “kill the Indian” in these children, or some such stupid idea.
Whatever. Maybe I’m overreacting, but I see this as very racist and classist.
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I also have to comment on how bizarre it is to see conservatives support having the nation’s children raised by government employees, rather than their own parents.
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Responding to your second comment, guest, providing out-of-school care or extended day programs is far from institutionalizing children or assuming the role of the parent. Many parents in upper-income communities send their children to a variety of extra-curricular activities. Are you supposing that the karate and basketball coaches in those communities are attempting to raise kids instead of parents?
I could see if schools made a decision to send all children to boarding schools for the semester, but I don’t see how an extra 2 hours amounts to cultural disintegration and assumption of parenting responsibilities. As it is, many kids in many neighborhoods attend after-school programs. Are those programs also racist and classist by being offered in communities where children often previously were left unattended throughout the day?
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I definitely wouldn’t assume all parents aren’t parenting, but I would be able to look at an individual school and see that additional support from 3-5 is necessary. If your concern is that parents would lose that time with their kids and be forced, because of their neighborhood, to lose out on the hours of 3-5 with their kids, I could see a there be an exemption component whereby a parent might opt out of the extended school day.
If your concern is that we are “targeting” certain neighborhoods for such efforts, we are. A district would look at community factors and make an informed decision about which was the best option for that particular school based on academic achievement, how a child spent out-of-school time, parent feedback, etc.
With your comparison to the “kill the Indian” program, do you see such similarities in terms of how schools are responding to children via extended day programs related to trying to kill culture?
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Hey! Don’t the kids have any say? As a Junior in High School I believe because we are also the ones to be put in school we also should have a say. Do you know all the tests that are taken in High Schoool? Do you know how many time i have screwed em over along with my friends. When are you ever going to take a test again after your out of school when? Also what is wrong with kids being kids? the point of a childhood is to be a child and make mistakes, once yyou hit 18 legally you aren’t obligated to make mistakes. Everyone just expects you to grow up. Yes I believe in big cities it may be right to keep kids off the street. But Teenagers and children already hate school do you really think they would pay attention at 5 in the afternoon? I hate school and I can’t concentrate in a classroom for the given time now you increase my hours and year i will homeschool even though i hate it. I get to learn at my OWN pace! I don’t have to spend hours upon hours on it and yes some kids need the extra help that is what tutoring is for! And you want to be more globally competitive your not getting anywhere because most kids hate tests so even if you did increase hours kids still wouldnt be able to focus that late in the day when they really want to get the hell out and a lot of kids are life me. Don’t study, and Dont care about tests in any sense. I believe that we aren’t going in the right way. I would never allow my own kids to go to school for so long, I want my kids to be kids first and it would be my job to teach my kids. not the school the school is supposed to help with what i cant but ultimately its the parents who raise. It is not a babysitter. (maybe for 4k and 5k) Kids hate school this wouldn’t help or increase anything but dropout rates and cutting class rates. Its almost a step back. And yes Everywhere else goes longer but what the hell is the matter with being different? Countries like China memorize things contently and we think a little bi outside the box an are creative whats wrong with that?
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The point is well made that charters that demand longer days and longer years (and often pay much less) have high turnover rates and this should be recognized as a symptom of a larger problem. However, I support longer days and a longer school year. But there should also be more prep and department coordination time during the day as well.
Other professionals put their kids in day care, why should teachers be any different. It is the savrifice of having a career. If we want to be treated like other professionals then we should have work days like other professionals. But we should also be allowed to get our work done during the day.
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EdEd and et al.,
Let me summarize this debate for you. Do with it what you want.
Right now, it’s 4:23 pm. I have just left an hour and ten minute long staff meeting I went to immediately following the dismissal of my students; a meeting where, like always, we all walked out with more to do than when we walked in. My desk and room are a wreck: the aftermath of 62 sixth graders moving in and out throughout today. Before I leave this building, I need to clean it all up and get everything ready for tomorrow. I teach science, so there’s a lot to pick up and a lot to put out.
Somewhere buried on my desk are a set of today’s unit tests, one for each student. During my lunchtime, I started grading a few, because I have to make every minute count, even those without students in the room, I mean, who eats? It took over fifteen minutes to grade just one. Being an elementary teacher I’ve taught math before too, so I know 62 x 15 = 930/60 = 15.5. That’s fifteen and one half hours just to grade one assignment. None of that is going to be accomplished while I am here at work, for this is the time I have to teach students, be on duties, attend meetings, and cleanup/prepare for the next day. The thought of what I still have to do with those documents (cause it’s more than just gradin’) is right now, a bit overwhelming. Honestly, I am mentally and physically exhausted.
Now, as I said before, I see all the benefits in the world for keeping kids off the street, in the classroom, learning, and loving life. But if, at this moment, you suggested I keep them another two hours, I gotta tell you, it’s just not going to happen. And if you insisted, you would quite soon find out, there is no possible way it could be sustained. Anyone who says otherwise is not currently doing, nor have they ever done, THIS job.
At some point, I believe you mentioned hiring outside individuals (university students perhaps?) who would arrive to work with students during this extended time. IF you could possibly fund this endeavor – remember the budget cuts to core programs issue? – with a revenue system that did not come from local, state, or federal resources, I could be all for it. Because at this point in my day, and with all I know I have to do before I get to go home and be with my own children, it really doesn’t matter to me who works with these students. As long as it’s not me.
Finally, giving the benefit of the doubt to a level of decision-makers (in this case, administrators) to not fill my days and nights and weekends and holidays and breaks with meaningless crap that simply justifies their positions, is a very dangerous and masochistic choice. Too much ineptitude exists. Too many power trips. Too many individuals who spent little to no time in the classroom. Too many with absolutely no reference as to what effects they’re causing with said decisions. Just simply too much, my friend.
Got to get back to preparing for tomorrow. If I’m fortunate, I can get it done by 5:30. Then it’s off to pickup my own children at daycare – cause where the hell else are they going to be?? Somewhere in tonight’s domestic responsibilities, I will need to find two (2!) workday’s worth of time to grade those tests. I can’t seem to get it all done. I also can’t seem to imagine not having those two hours per day after dismissal, for it would be glaringly obvious to anyone that my entire end-of-the-day-and-into-the-night routine would instantly become less end-of-the-day and more into-the-night. As stated in another post, “we should have work days just like other professionals.”
You’re right. We should.
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Henrychale, I think you’ve missed several points of my comments above. First, no where will you find that I’ve made light of the responsibilities of teachers today, including the amount of work that needs to be done. Second, I’ve mentioned that there are strengths and weaknesses to the idea of extended school day, with some limitations that would need to be overcome (not the least of which is the burn out factor of both students and teachers). Third, you may notice that I mentioned considering alternative scheduling/structuring using folks other than teachers and schedules other than continuous academics.
Here’s the point – this is worth discussion. I’m finding on this blog, as I’ve mentioned before, extreme one-sidedness – an unwillingness to remotely consider strengths/weaknesses on both sides of the argument. In other words, me pointing out some strengths of extended school day is not a default refusal to consider your points. I hear you, and I agree with you. But I’d like for you (and others) to be willing to consider the entire picture, not simply get stuck on one element of the discussion.
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EdEd,
No worries. I am more than willing to accept any kind of dialogue regarding education reform, alternative scheduling, etc. etc. etc. providing:
a:) It doesn’t in any way shape of form add to my current workload; note this doesn’t exclude substituting one responsibility for another — which is always the goal, however, it NEVER happens. This results in the addition of collections of tasks and responsibilities as we chase the latest education fad. I could give you a list of almost thirty, yes 30! examples our district alone has taken on in the last six years. This is, of course, always in addition to The Job.
b:) It doesn’t diminish my abilities, skills, effectiveness, or enthusiasm for working with students. Describing this job as ‘impossible’ is beyond cliché. Not really sure of a stronger word, but I’m always searching. My students are the ONLY remaining reason I continue to do this job. Talk with your teacher acquaintances. If they’re really honest, like the people on this blog, they’ll tell you the same. Ironically, the one aspect of this job that I felt certain would cause me to burnout and leave teaching is but the one and only aspect for which I continue to come in, give it my best and everything, and then get up and do it all again the next day. One reason.
c:) It doesn’t screw me over. Screw me over and you screw with my family. My own kids. Out of the question and of the table. I will so easily, quickly, and happily walk away. The word reform used to cause me to roll my eyes. Over time, it caused me to cringe. Now, when I hear the word, I tense up, become defensive, feel enraged, like a caged or cornered animal defending her young. Pay based on performance, eliminating value and recognition of levels of education and experience, eliminating rights of due process, making it illegal to collectively bargain, teaching and learning being replaced with malpractice prepping and testing. I will fight this bullshit reform for my students because I love them. I will leave this bullshit reform behind for my family. Because I love them more.
Don’t get me wrong. I love this job. Hell, anybody still in the classroom as of December 6, 2012 must love it, right? Sight unseen, these individuals have already earned my respect. Personally, this is my twentieth year of teaching. I have earned two college degrees, National Board Certification, along with a few other formal accomplishments. Obviously, I know what I’m doing, and I’m damn good at it.
Any good teacher will adapt to what they’re given, be it students, schedules, resources and materials, whatever. It comes to a point, however, and trust me, we are already there, when survival and self-preservation trump ignoramus applications of the word ‘professionalism’ and ‘reform’. Any good teacher will tell you that as well. Again, talk with your teachers. Listen to their words. Look at their faces. I’m confident they all – we all, care about “doing what’s best for children.” But we’re not suckers. What we are is sick of the politicians, millionaires, media talking heads, hedge-fund managers and profiteers, along with every expert and educational consultant – all of whom are anything but – telling us how to do our jobs when they long ago stopped doing it, if even at all.
Keep your dialogue alive, though. As long as we’re both listening, I’m in.
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Henrychale,
Well said. Most teachers who have been in this profession a while (28 years for me) are at the tipping point. We are ready to leave this insanity if we must for our health, our sanity, and our families. I love working with children, but there will come a day when I may tell my administrators to “take this job and shove it!” As I said before, there is no more blood in this turnip. I can’t give any more nor work any harder because I have been going full-throttle for 28 years.
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Starting a new post below for more space….
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If I only worked 40 hours a week teaching, I would feel like a part-timer!
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Henrychale – thanks for your post. Definitely sounds like you are a passionate advocate for kids and for teaching. I’m with you in that I think every potential “reform” – defined as a change to current educational practices on a broad level – should always be evaluated thoroughly to understand its strengths and weaknesses. To the extent that a reform causes extreme stress and lack of job satisfaction for reasonable and competent folks, there should be serious question as to whether that reform is really a good idea.
The conversation I’ve seen, though, seems to have generalized beyond any one reform, and instead is aimed at ALL reforms. It seems that many folks are now against any change in routine, even if that change in routine is for the better of students. Take Response to Intervention (RtI), which could very well be classified as a “reform,” and is recent as well. That reform did not come from private business folks, and was a very reasonable way of altering supports for both general and special education populations. When done right, it really does a number of good things, but like most strategies (be it a system-level “reform” or intervention with an individual child), there are strengths and limitations, as well as pitfalls with implementation.
My point with the RtI mention is that not ALL reforms have been or will be bad, and it’s very dangerous to say that ANY change in teacher expectations or workload is always a bad thing. Yes, you may be a great teacher, and there are a number of you out there, but it doesn’t mean you (or others) are perfect, and it doesn’t address the number of teaches out there who may very well care, but may not be approaching certain aspects of education in the best way possible.
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Sadly, this is one more initiative to fix an adult problem at the expense of the child. We have pushed aside everything we know about how children learn best (i.e. creative play, exploration, time to socialize, physical exercise, discussion, age-appropriate activities, free time) and have allowed children to become pawns to further multiple agendas. This is an attempt to get better test scores. We have become so focused on that one indicator of success that we are going to leave behind millions of children who express their learning and growth in many ways. In some ways, we have reverted back to the Industrial Age when children were measured by the number of hours they worked and what they produced, and were not allowed to be children. They are cogs in the American Government Factory…it is really a sad time. We should look at models that work in our country (i.e. homeschoolers) and see what works for us. The whole “Global” comparison conveniently leaves out so many variables.
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whatever i dont like longer days i hate even thinking about it do be ina propro kids go on this website
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I’m doing research on why kids should not have longer school days. I need more information please
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