I taped an interview with Randi Kaye of CNN Newsroom on Friday August 17. I was invited to do this interview in response to her earlier interview with Michelle Rhee.
I went to CNN assuming I was invited to express my differences with Rhee, who gets far more airtime than I to present her agenda of attacking US education, smearing teachers, calling for an end to tenure and seniority, and demanding merit pay, charter schools, vouchers, for-profit charter schools, for-profit virtual schools, and more testing.
But there was no discussion of my views, no opportunity to present them. Instead I faced a series of loaded questions intended to put me on the defensive (some of the worst were left out of the televised version). They were “gotcha” questions. What do you say to this? And what about that?
My early response –before the interview aired–may have led them to edit out the first line of questioning, when Randi Kaye claimed that NAEP scale scores showed the “failure” of American education. She didn’t know what an idiotic question that was. I was a member of the board of NAEP for seven years, and no one ever suggested that scale scores were grades; they are a trend line. If her question and assertion had been left in, they would have misled the U.S. public in typical reformer style, but to anyone who knows anything about scale scores, CNN would have revealed its ignorance. The editors were wise to delete it.
She claimed that a score of 250 on a scale of 500 meant that half the nation’s students had a grade of 50, which is failing. This is ridiculous. The most advanced students on the scale–those at the 90th percentile–have a scale score of 276 in fourth grade math, which means they too are failing! Clearly, someone was digging to find the most negative possible “facts” that would make American education look bad. These “facts” happened to be completely false. A scale score is not a grade, it is a trend line. And what she found inconceivable is that the scale scores are at their highest point in history for every group: whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.
Folks, this woman and her researchers are totally uninformed. And they feed their uninformed views to the American public. This is what is frightening!
The even better news was the wonderful response of readers after the interview aired. Here are a few that I have gathered (and will pass along to CNN). There were many more on Twitter, and on this blog:
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Watched both Kaye interviews of yourself and Rhee. Difference was that Rhee was asked how to fix while your statements were challenged. On the whole however I thought you were very successful in replying to her questions. Kaye played devil’s advocate with you unlike her interview with Rhee.
Mike Brocoum
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Kaye’s interview is an example of Yellow Journalism. She tried to sensationalize an issue, using extremes, false accusations and innuendo. Unfortunately, Yellow Journalistic strategies are becoming the norm with the third estate.
There was a reason she taped your interview rather than do it live. Kaye’s agenda was not to interview but to attack public education.
Her first stat, showing teacher salaries was an attempt to show some teachers are paid much more than others. She never acknowledged that salaries are affected by cost of living issues in each region, State, and county.
Her most disturbing stunt was to read a letter from a student who obviously has some learning issues. Was this child learning disabled or perhaps a recent immigrant learning a new language? What is going on in the life of this child? Living in extreme poverty, parents? How old was this child?
Diane, schooled Kaye using details and facts. She was masterful. I don’t think I could have kept my cool like Diane did. Unfortunately, we all witnessed Kaye not listening ( watch the interview again). She wasn’t listening and learning she was getting ready to read her next prepared question and showing her next ‘gotcha’ quote.
Kaye knew she didn’t have a chance , that’s why she was reading her questions. It’s evidence she doesn’t understand the issue. If she did, she would have conducted the interview more like a discussion.
Perhaps, we can hope Kaye learned on lesson, the lesson that parroting Rhee’s Students First’s talking points comes with the consequence of looking like a fool.
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Exactly, in reference to the student paper…what did Randi know about him or her. Was this an ELL student or sped? Was the student receiving services? How often had this child moved: schools, towns, districts, states? What was the attendance record for this child?
This wasn’t an interview….it was an ambush.
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Diane, I think you did a great job combating Randy’s slanted questions. One important point that needs to be made is that oftentimes schools in poorer areas do not receive the funding and supporting services needed to help children to overcome the baggage that they bring to school. While testing is an important part of education, other factors need to be taken into account so that all of our children receive a quality of education.
Thank you for providing people with a more accurate picture of our public schools.
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I think we just need to acknowledge that especially now, money buys speech and media time. When I look at what is happening here in New Jersey and what is conveyed in the press – whose messages – I see the messages of those with the money make it to press far faster, with more frequency and exposure than those messages of us grass roots people, unfunded, fighting to save and improve public schools. So we go everywhere – we show up where they do not and where they do. And we comment on every article, blog and post. It is tiring, but we have your amazing lead to follow and we benefit greatly from your relentless willingness to say what needs to be said ensuring all of us have a better chance at being heard. Thank you.
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Diane, you were amazing, Randi Kay is clearly biased toward Rhee. WTH is going on at CNN? Please keep fighting for our children.
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I was really worried when you wrote about the interview after the taping, but after watching it, I was pleased. I know she didn’t agree with your assessments and kept pushing back opposing questions, but she allowed you to state your case very well without interruption. You did a terrific job responding, and I truly believe the way the interview was conducted allowed the audience to make its own conclusions about what to believe.
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I thought you did a masterful job in the face of a clearly biased interviewer. You were pure grace under fire. You spoke the truth in spite of her deliberately leading questions, and I was cheering you on along with the other teachers in the audience who were surely watching this morning. Thank you for your continued efforts on behalf of public schools and public school educators. We desperately need your continued voice and advocacy.
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You were the epitome of grace under pressure. You skillfully debunked everything she threw at you with facts. I agree they cut the NAEP question because it was apparent you schooled them and it made them look bad. Hopefully, they really did learn something about the true state of education and the FACT that it is being set up for privatization. Thank you for speaking out so eloquently on school reform.
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I just watched, and agree with your take. There is some political/financial motivation for Randi/CNN to treat the chance to hear from you as instead a chance to discredit your point of view. I had to go and find the Rhee interview Kaye did, because I had avoided it (knowing what I would hear from Rhee). I was more interested in seeing if Rhee had survived the slings and arrows, the cherry picked and invalid use of data, the portrayal of struggles as automatic assumptions of systemic failure.
Rhee got no such treatment. Even questions posed as quasi-criticisms were only softballs lobbed for Rhee to continue Students First PR. Diane gets ambushed with 1 student letter, 1 poverty stricken district/state, data is used selectively to support Kaye’s foregone conclusion, and the devastation profiteering has already caused this nation and the bulk of it’s children is ignored. Good teachers will reverse outsourcing and the undermining of the middle class family, Kaye? Really?
Rhee gets “tell us more about what you think”. CNN, Randi Kaye…do you not know Rhee’s history? How she benefits from “reform”? How ALEC really operates and what it’s legislative agenda is regarding public money to private pockets?
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That was not an interview but a cross-examination. That “rheeporter” was an obvious mouthpiece for the privatizers, particularly when compared with Michele Rhee’s earlier, “soft” interview. I said as much in an email to CNN a moment ago.
As for Highland Park, MI, of course it is struggling! I lived near there as a grad student in the late 90′s and it was one of the most impoverished and dangerous areas of Detroit. Privatizing Highland Park schools does not ameliorate these other conditions which interfere with those students’ education. Why didn’t Kaye show a writing sample from an 8th grader in affluent Bloomfield Hills or Grosse Pointe?
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“a fortress of knowledge and reason”
I LOVE that description of Diane! Thanks for summing it up. Randi kept after Diane but could gain any ground.
I posted this under the earlier Mitt entry so I will re-post here on topic:
She was prepared with her material and you were unaware of what she would ask.
But because you are prepared, you answered every query solidly. It was so impressive to watch how quickly you came back with thorough responses. It was amazing to watch her continue to come back with follow-up questions, pursuing her storyline in spite of you having shot it down, time and again. She was clearly NOT interested in giving you airtime to describe privatization movement. And isn’t that the most telling of all? You articulated quite clearly (more than once) that there is an agenda of privatization using her Michigan story as your vehicle. SHE DID NOT ASK FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. Either she is incredibly lacking in curiousity(a really bad thing for a reporter) or she is aware of the topic and they don’t want to give you the time to expand upon that issue for Saturday morning viewers to hear who might get curious about it. I am done with CNN.
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This was obviously not an objective interview. It was an insult to good and fine interviewers everywhere. I was stunned (although I guess I shouldn’t have been) by Randi Kaye’s relentless challenge of the effectiveness of public schools, keeping Diane constantly on the defense. Thank you, Diane, for taking one on the chin for all of us. You did a great job! You inspire this teacher of 35 years to keep fighting the good fight.
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Outstanding work Diane! You are grace under fire! I have already sent an email to CNN…first for thanking them for inviting you on the show, but then shaming them for their token gift to all of us who wrote after the Michelle Rhee interview.( Wasn’t her interview midmorning?) They could do better, they should do better! Their lack of respect for your background and education is an absolute insult to me. But.. you sure did us proud!!
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Diane, you did a wonderful job! Very adversarial interview, sheesh. Also noted Rhee got even more air time in the lead-in. Well, now that they have you on tape, here’s hoping they’ll lead in some future segments with you! Many thanks!
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Diane, it was clear that she was one sided and that you were put in the position to defend your position. It made her look terrible (Fox news comment is brilliant), not you. As always, I am grateful that America has you to speak the truth about what is happening to our public education system. You spoke the truth so eloquently and with great depth of knowledge. Thank you a million times over. Chris
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| They probably edited it out because it showed her ignorance of her subject matter. At least someone is paying attention.I thought it looked great. Much better than you thought, I think.I wish someone would make a commercial about her inadequacies. Why is she even an authority figure? I guess that’s like asking why elementary children always befriend the bully.
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| By the way, I could hear the cheers across the country from teachers far and wide when you talked about what they really want is to be able to collaborate and work together. That is the true source of the problem. In one district I know, the central administration puts everyone’s license on a board, and moves teachers around according to licensure, without any regard for what teams of teachers are doing well, or whether that teacher has ever taught that subject in his/her 20+ years of teaching. So much for administrators claiming they are doing what is best for the children! ********************************************* |
| You are correct about CNN, Diane. It is seriously attempting to remake itself as Fox Lite to boost its terrible ratings. Randi Kaye used to be a serious reporter back in her Minnesota and early CNN days, but in light of massive firings at CNN obviously has chosen to be a corporate shill. Trust CNN no more than Fox. Money is controlling the message. Try MSNBC and Current. Small voices of reason in a sea of babble.
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| CNN has been Fox-Light for quite some time! I just don’t understand, other than ALEC and their ilk, why the media has bought into this narrative. Except for Ed Schultz, it exists n MSNBC as well. It’s as if it has become conventional wisdom. |
Diane, it was clear that she was one sided and that you were put in the position to defend your position. It made her look terrible (Fox news comment is brilliant), not you. As always, I am grateful that America has you to speak the truth about what is happening to our public education system. You spoke the truth so eloquently and with great depth of knowledge. Thank you a million times over. Chris
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She was relentless but you were a fortress of knowledge and reason, brava! It’s great to have you in the hot seat even though it must be very unpleasant. Know we’re all standing behind you.
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| I watched it when it aired this morning @ 8:45 AM. I found it particularly interesting that as an introduction to your interview, Randi Kaye re-aired comments made by Michelle Rhee. I was also quite disappointed that she chose to exhibit and share a letter written by a middle/high school student who was clearly below grade level and chose to ignore your implicit points that one sample, from one district, from one school cannot adequately illustrate or messure quality education. She chose to ignore your repeated valid points regarding poverty when she had the perfect opportunity to explore and expand on that topic during the interview. It is clear to me that she had her own agenda that apparently was sanctioned by her bosses. I am surprised and disappointed by CNN. I look to them as a “voice of reason” on issues. CNN loops much of their material throughout the day, so I would think that those who missed it might be able to catch it at another time. |
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| They probably edited it out because it showed her ignorance of her subject matter. At least someone is paying attention.I thought it looked great. Much better than you thought, I think.I wish someone would make a commercial about her inadequacies. Why is she even an authority figure? I guess that’s like asking why elementary children always befriend the bully. |
| Thanks, Diane, for being a voice of reason in this horrid ed reform debate. Despite the obvious bias in this pseudo-interview, I appreciated the fact that you answered all of her questions with facts. However, I am disheartened that CNN has become just as bad as Fox and MSNBCs disgraceful Education Nation. Apparently, the corporate profits are fueling this drive for reform, and neither politicians nor the media care about the facts.Valerie Strauss posted an excellent article about the money behind the push for charter schools. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/the-big-business-of-charter-schools/2012/08/16/bdadfeca-e7ff-11e1-8487-64e4b2a79ba8_blog.html#pagebreakThe information is out there. My hope is that people will wake up before the public schools have been totally destroyed.**************************************If Randi Kaye wants to hold up one student paper as an example of our failing schools, we should “hold up” her interview as an example of her failing attempt at journalism.She is just another hack “rheeporter” (thank you Alan) shilling for the corporate takeover of our country.CNN…contaminated news network |
Diane Ravitch's blog 
CNN is indeed Fox Lite, they toe the corporate line, they are corporate shills. They did the same to Michael Moore’s Sicko in 2007. Sanjay Gupta had to do a mild watered down mea culpa (sort of) but still would not admit that his overall reporting was totally biased against Moore and the whole idea of universal health care. It looks like CNN is also against universal public education (traditional public schools).
And another bit of information, if she wanted to pick the fight that U.S. schools aren’t doing well. How many years have we had under NCLB? Could poor policy be the cause of poor schooling?
As a teacher and now a parent of a student in public schools, I see the poor practices going on all in order to collect data. In order to improve test scores we are isolating skills that those who know should be taught within the context of meaning.
As a teacher, I’m frustrated with being held back from becoming even better because of the corporate need to standardize all of us. So I would argue that all of this reform is holding everyone back, and we have education policy to thank for that.
Grace under fire, et al–but they alas know no shame. They’ve a chance to really get a knowledgeable understanding of the “alternate” view and then they waste it trying to “catch” the uncatchable Diane. So let’s all shame them. Remind me how to write CNN!
Real fair CNN….You don’t give a clear airing time until the last minute and then you put the interview early on a Saturday morning so fewer people see the interview. I have seen Rhee get frequent prime time exposure. I went to your website to try and see the interview there and it isn’t posted. When I search for videos of Diane Ravitch there are ZERO on the list but when I type in Michelle Rhee there are TWENTY-FOUR videos on the list. I guess we now know how biased and unfair your reporting really is. If you are going to report on a topic you need to have a real clue as to what your talking about instead of blindly following the rantings of those backed by lots of wealth. Is there any news station that reports fairly and accurately anymore? Apparently not.
at just after noon on Saturday, four hours after the airing, searching under “Diane Ravitch” on CNN’s video page there are no results– do you think they are embarrassed? Just to be sure it was nowhere on the web I went to YouTube but it ain’t there either (but this oldie but goodie is, Diane Ravitch at the Save Our Schools rally in DC a year ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfcjQ-2Se58)
I wonder who we should all write at CNN to object to that joke of an “interview” and the fact that they are not making it available for people to see and share.
Thank you Diane. You were calm, cool and collected. Sad CNN only puts up items/information on their site that the “reformers” want the masses to hear. Money will get anything accomplished. Sad at the expense of our children and public schools.
They are not in good faith and will stop at nothing in pursuit of their goal, which is to drain the treasury into their own pockets while making a mockery of democracy.
I actually would like to thank Randi Kaye because some of my 7th graders have a hard time grasping the concept of bias. Once this video is linked I will save it in my Smartboard video folder and use this as an example of a biased interview hosted by a corporation posing as a news network.
For a class project we will choose a local issue and a few local officials. We will create biased vs. unbiased questions and role play the possible answers/scenarios. Possibly we can contact an adult who is willing to take on some savvy middle schoolers.
For the non-educator reformy types…..this would be considered an authentic assessment.
that’s an awesome idea…I’m going to borrow that if you don’t mind..
You may want to look at Hilda Taba’s concept formation teaching ideas, including a data retrieval chart to get students to analyze the features of bias from some examples. A good assessment is to ask them to provide examples and non-examples. What a great idea to use this CNN interview, which will no doubt be of great interest to them!
“CNN, The Most Trusted Name In News”—Really?
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/show/?s=generalcomments&hdln=4
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/show/?s=otheranchors
Will the interview be put on CNN’s website so those of us who don’t have cable can see it? Rhee’s interview is there.
There’s “interesting” commentary on the Highland Park situation on the hyper-conservative Mackinac Center cite. In mid-July, one Audrey Spalding (who apparently is based in St. Louis, MO, posted an article at http://bit.ly/NxaSSN about the financial situation in HP, in which she stated that the district was spending close to $20K per student. I have a publication out of Ferndale, MI published by Metroparent.com, called THE BIG BOOK OF SCHOOLS, from which I found that PPE (per pupil expenditure) as $7466. I posted a comment asking about this enormous discrepancy.
Checking back today, I saw that Ms. Spalding replied in early August. After looking at the resources to which she links in her comments, posted at the Mackinac Center site and drawn from a Michigan Dept. of Education report (also linked to), I saw that the numbers she cites include total expenditures of the district well beyond instructional services, which she states in her follow-up comment to me. It’s instructive to compare two districts in Wayne County, which is where Detroit is located. One is Highland Park, of course, and the other is Grosse Pointe. Same county, but dramatically difference economic and physical conditions. Hard to believe they’re in the same country, let alone the same county.
Look at differences in income per pupil from LOCAL resources (i.e., the tax base) and you’ll begin to see how changes in funding laws going back about 20 years or so in Michigan account for the mess some poor communities are in. Even when state and federal monies are included, GP still gets about $2700 more per pupil than does HP.
Rather than rewrite my reply to Ms. Spalding, I’ll copy it below, as it raises a lot of issues I think are relevant, including the school district loan situation in greater San Diego that bears investigation.
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I appreciate your reply which I just saw now, as I’m trying to follow up on these drastically discrepant numbers. What you’re suggesting is that there is about a $12,000 PER PUPIL cost for administration in Highland Park. What seems more plausible is that such a discrepancy represents costs that are outside of what are normally cited – numbers one would expect to include administrative and other non-instructional costs. One such factor might be debt. And in this case, I suspect based on conversations I had with knowledgeable folks at a recent conference in Columbus, OH, that Highland Park’s extraordinary debt might well be what we’re looking at when you mention a cost per pupil of close to $20,000.
Shortly after that conference, I saw a story on CNN about school district debt in some towns in the San Diego, CA area that was absolutely stunning. These districts had taken on loans that appeared to have been given by major banks at rates that bordered on the usurious. The overall thrust of the story was that banks were engaging in predatory lending practices with public schools to take advantage of the financial crisis wherein government funding at various levels had fallen dramatically. I wonder if your research has taken that possibility into account in the Highland Park situation. My sense, to be honest, is that you’re presenting a picture that left unquestioned would lead to one conclusion: gross mismanagement and/or theft on the part of one or more individuals in Highland Park. That’s not impossible, of course: it’s happened in lots of institutions and companies, public and private, for centuries. There is no dearth of recent stories about financial mismanagement and outright theft in publicly-funded, but privately managed for profit charter schools. I don’t recall reading anything about that from you or the Mackinac Center, but I’m not in a position to read everything that MIGHT have been written.
I’m taking a look at the figures in the reports on the Mackinac site and directly at the Michigan DOE to see if I can piece this out. One number that stands out from Wayne County: Highland Park has attendance of about 3400 pupils per day, whereas Grosse Pointe Schools have about 7700 pupils per day, slightly more than double what Highland Park has. However, the LOCAL income from the communities is dramatically different: HP gets about $1500 per pupil while GP gets about $4200 per pupil. Not quite triple PER PUPIL, but let’s not quibble. Think that’s a factor in anything at all?
Looking at all sources of revenue, Grosse Pointe gets about $2700 per pupil more than does Highland Park. Could that account for any discrepancies in how students fare in these two districts?
Of course, money never tells the WHOLE story. Given that you’re in Missouri, you probably haven’t had the chance to drive through either Highland Park or Grosse Pointe. I have. The former looks like a war zone. The impact of the near-collapse of the auto industry is painfully evident in HP (you should read up on that history for places like Highland Park, Flint, Pontiac, Willow Run, Detroit, and many other cities in the state that depended heavily on the car companies and countless spin-offs and suppliers, as well as all the businesses that depended upon the existence of those companies).
The latter is one of the wealthiest and, of course, beautiful communities in the nation.You could spend days there and be hard-pressed to know you were in the Rust Belt or that there had been a major state, regional, and economic crisis, still on-going. Does that suggest anything at all to you, Audrey?
If there has been criminal mismanagement in HP, of course something should be done. But of course, the criminal financial activities of our governments, major financial institutions, Wall Street, and corporations – and the individuals who have benefited from all this chicanery should also be placed under close scrutiny. Why isn’t that of interest to you or the Mackinac Center? Why are public schools currently such popular targets of conservative and neo-liberal think tanks, as well as the mainstream media? Did you happen to catch the CNN interview (or, more accurately, failed ambush) of Diane Ravitch this morning? Highland Park was brought out as if it were TYPICAL of US public schools. Why not Grosse Pointe, or Bloomfield Hills, or Ann Arbor, I wonder?
Change is incremental. There is power in numbers. Slow and steady. That’s been demonstrated over the past few days. We’ve demonstrated that. Blog, tweet and pass along the clip. There’s more to be done.
Diane was poised, as usual. And as a bonus, she taught them something about NAEP scores and data analysis and interpretation. Not too bad. Even better would be a call-back. They have so much to learn and Diane has so much to teach them. (Sorry to volunteer you with your busy schedule- a few copies of your books might be enough to remediate them.)
CNN a ways to go.On the one hand, Soledad is shredding people on the right and on the other hand Randi Kaye and others act as supplicates and sycophants.
Here’s a question I would love Rhee, Kopp and others of their ilk to answer:
So you’ve had (__ ) years of teaching experience, and for the past (__) years you’ve been bragging/telling everyone you have the silver bullet to solve America’s educational ills and close the achievement gap. You’ve been in a position for (__) years to change that and it hasn’t happened-why?
I am so annoyed that CNN hasn’t posted the video! Diane, if you learn that a video has been posted please post the link on your blog. I have been reading all about it and it sounds like you did incredibly well. I am so disappointed in CNN.
I just went on their site and sent an email to their “feedback” page:
you ran an “interview” of Diane Ravitch by a very charged-up Randi Kaye this morning a few hours ago– it is not on your site anywhere I can find it. This is strange given how many puff-piece Michelle Rhee videos are on your site. Question– are you guys a news organization or an astroturf ALEC-sponsored group of privateers? You lose credibility every hour you don’t put this clip up for everyone to see how lame your “news reader” was and how deftly Ravitch parried her every attempted beanball.
Your search ravitch did not match any documents
A few suggestions
Make sure all words are spelled correctly
Try different keywords
Try more general keywords
Please call and/or email CNN to ask when the “interview” will be posted:
CNN: 404.827.1500
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/
She played dirty, Diane, especially her use of a poorly-written student essay to show how terrible public schools are. Despicable. But you handled it well. Thanks for once again standing up for public ed.
Mike Klonsky (SOS)
Thanks Mike
Diane Ravitch
It’ll be on CNN’s Schools of Thought blog, I imagine by the end of the day. http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/
So I subscribed to the CNN blog this morning, via rss, as I’m sure many readers here do to this blog. Couldn’t help but notice some surprising numbers… The CNN blog (multiple reporters/authors, TV corporation sponsorship, carries advertising, etc) has been online for about 9 months, and has 572 rss subscribers. Diane’s little personal blog here has been online for 4 months and has 662 rss subscribers. Just sayin’…
Blog on, Diane!
The idea of using Highland Park as somehow representative of US public education was ridiculous. Do parents in affluent (e.g., Grosse Pointe, MI) or middle class (e.g., Ann Arbor) communities think that HP is typical of what would be found in their own public schools? If so, then they might buy that the student’s letter is also typical of US literacy education.
This becomes such a two-edged sword for those of us who know that places like Highland Park have horrid economic and physical conditions that make it anything but “typical” of a huge number of US public schools, but at the same time want people in power to react to what’s going on in such places with a sense of responsibility, not a cheap game of finger-pointing at teachers while ignoring the dire economic realities. And also the realization that we could be doing a much better job of educating students across the board if we were to meaningfully come to grips with the deeply entrenched CULTURE of teaching as a profession and of SCHOOLS as institutions. We’re living so far in the past, and in general repeating so many of the mistakes we’ve made countless times before that it’s hard not to feel damned in some ways for trying to defend a system that really needs major overhauling. But if we don’t defend the IDEA of public schooling as it COULD be, and fend off the greedy profiteers and deformers, we have no chance of making things better.
If we lived in a sane country, we’d have the politicians and power brokers focusing on alleviating poverty and everything that causes and comes from it, and let educators have the opportunity to remake schools without being blamed for every social and economic ill and passed over for credit when they do good and we all benefit from their successes. The current culture is quite the reverse, however, and public schools and teachers are given little but abuse, while being put in degenerating working conditions, none of which help kids in any demonstrable way.
But I still have to state that I worry that regardless of the deformers, there have been many opportunities for this country’s schools and teachers to improve in districts where poverty isn’t much of an issue or barely is an issue at all. And I wonder if we can afford to ignore how little change there has been in mathematics pedagogy over the last 20 years or so. I believe that THE TEACHING GAP got it right: teaching and schools are part of a culture, and that culture has not really changed. Our metaphors and models of math instruction and learning remain embedded in ideas that have never worked for most kids. But our teachers, absent the opportunity to become steeped in any other kind of culture, are effectively resistant to reform (which is why I believe strongly that math teaching 20 years from now despite the wonders promised by the Common Core believers, will resemble nothing so much as the mathematics teaching of today, of 20 years ago, of 40 years ago (when I was in school) and of 60 years ago or more (when my parents, aunts, and uncles were being miseducated).
Diane,
I just got a call from CNN, but I didn’t get the phone on time, so it went into voice mail. Brian (no last name) left a message that a transcript of the interview was posted on line. Why not the video?
I am going to try and find it now.
Once again, it’s great to voice our opinions here. But, why don’t we let Ms. Kaye know the facts about this interview and education in general. Ms. Ravitch CANNOT do it alone. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone. I know there are some soldiers out there. But we need to be more vocal and it needs to get louder very soon.
Keith, I can’t speak for anyone else here, but my suspicion is that I’m hardly alone in having made my comments directly to CNN before posting them here. I doubt many of those who have been weighing in on Diane’s blog are shy about going directly to the source to lodge criticism and complaints. But it’s also good that so many people are letting Diane know how well she did under particularly unfavorable circumstances: television is adept like no other media and controlling how people come across. The game was rigged to make Diane look ill-prepared and ignorant. That she managed to so effectively turn the tables on her foolish host borders on the miraculous, even knowing how well-versed she is on the issues. Few people could pull that sort of thing off. For those readers old enough to remember, the last time I saw someone so effectively make a hostile host look woefully over-matched by the would-be guest victim was when James Baldwin made mincemeat of William F. Buckley on FIRING LINE.
Diane,
I found the transcript link for the morning news and scrolled through to find your interview.
Here is the link and the transcript, but I still wonder why they can’t put it online when they did post Rhee:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1208/18/smn.02.html
KAYE: Budget cuts are forcing school districts to scale back on teachers and staff. A new report from the White House this morning says that the country has lost 300,000 education jobs since 2009, that’s resulted in larger class sizes and fewer school days.
President Obama says the trend has to be reversed if America is ever to compete.
For the last several weeks we’ve been looking at education and the state of our schools. Earlier this month the former head of the D.C. public school system Michelle Rhee joined us on this show. She argued that students in the U.S. aren’t making the grade compared to students in some other countries.
Her solution? Merit pay and taking a better look at how our tax dollars are being spent in schools. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE RHEE, FORMER HEAD OF DC PUBLIC SCHOOLS: There are hundreds of thousands, millions of teachers in this country who are absolutely amazing. They do incredible things for children. And they should be recognized and rewarded and valued for their work.
And there are other teachers who are not making the grade. They’re not producing the gains and student achievement that we need for our children. For those teachers to be paid the exact same amount as our effective teachers makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: After that interview, a lot of you weighed in. Diane Ravitch even wrote an opinion piece about it on our blog. She is research professor of education at NYU, the former assistant secretary of education, to President George H.W. Bush and author of the “Death and Life of The Great American School System: How testing and choice are undermining education”.
I spoke with her earlier and here’s what she had to tell me.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: Diane in an article that you wrote for cnn.com, you said, quote, “The only valid measure of academic performance in our schools is the federal test called National Assessment of Education Process. The NAEP test scores of American students are at their highest point in history, for black students, white students, Hispanic students and Asian students. So would it be safe to say that you think education in our country has never been better than it is right now?
DIANE RAVITCH, RESEARCH PROFESSOR, NYU: I think right now our kids are achieving at a higher rate than they’ve ever achieved and that education is under assault. It’s not because of the teachers or the principals. It’s because there is a massive movement under way to privatize our schools. This whole narrative about the failure of American schools is a phony narrative.
KAYE: Let’s talk about the ACLU because it filed a lawsuit on behalf of nearly 1,000 students attending public schools in Highland Park, Michigan. You’re probably aware of this. They say the school district is failing to teach students how to read.
I want to show you this letter written by an eighth grader. Try and read it to you. It says, quote, “You can make the school gooder by getting people that will do the job that is pay for, get a football tame for the kinds maybe a basketball tame get a other jam teacher for the school get a lot of toche.”
All right, now I know the test scores in Reading among 8th grades has increased by a point and overall in the state of Michigan, but isn’t this disappointing to you? What is your take on that?
RAVITCH: Well, you know, it said that one student can’t read but that says nothing about American education. I mean you can always find one example. An anecdote is not a trend. There will always be some kids who are doing very poorly, for whatever reason. But an anecdote doesn’t mean anything.
What you look at, which is why I said in the very beginning of my article, the only valid measure is the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which has been counting academic achievement since the early 1970s. On that measure, American students today have the highest test scores in History, in Reading and in Math — white students, black students, Hispanic students and Asian students. I might also add that the graduation rate today is the highest it’s ever been and the dropout rate is the lowest it’s ever been.
KAYE: Let me just point out what you said there because you said that that’s one student who can’t read or write there, but this lawsuit filed by the ACLU is on behalf of 1,000 students, not just one student.
RAVITCH: Well, you know, I think it’s terrible that that student and those students didn’t get a good education. Wherever that happens, the state has an obligation of remedying it. What Highland Park, Michigan is doing instead of remedying that student’s education is to privatize their schools. That district has been handed over by the state of Michigan to for-profit charter corporation, a corporation that will make a profit because the district has a $12 million deficit.
That corporation will now take $12 million in profits out of the district. Whether they’ll do a better job, we can’t say because they haven’t started. What we do know is that all of their other schools in Michigan are very low performing.
KAYE: But when you talk about how we’re doing better than ever, and then you look at this case filed on behalf of a thousand students, how do you make sense of that? How does that square with we’re doing better than ever?
RAVITCH: The way you make sense of it is that’s a district that has very high levels of poverty, that is very underfunded. And the state of Michigan has an obligation to step in and make sure that teachers are properly trained, that they have the resources they need, that they have the curriculum and the tools that they need to do a better job.
Instead, the state of Michigan is privatizing that district and giving it to a for-profit corporation.
KAYE: So, you’re saying that this is because of poverty. What about the responsibility of the teachers?
RAVITCH: Well, of course teachers are responsible, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the teachers are bad. You know, without doing an evaluation, you have no way of knowing. You can’t just automatically say the scores are low, you have bad teachers. There are all kinds of things that play into low test scores.
I might add, the ACLU didn’t blame teachers. The ACLU blamed the state of Michigan and said they were suing the state of Michigan and many, many other actors and not just — they didn’t just say that the teachers were solely responsible for the situation in Highland Park, Michigan.
KAYE: You mentioned in your article that because our public schools educate 90 percent of the population, we should give public schools some credit for our nation’s accomplishment as the greatest engine of technological innovations in the world. But recently the American Electronic Association said that our school system was failing to provide strong science and math education to students. Because of that, companies now outsourcing jobs to more qualified technology workers in other countries. How do you explain that? What do you say to that?
RAVITCH: I think they’re outsourcing jobs because they’re sending them to nations where the workers are cheaper. There are plenty of people here in this country —
KAYE: You’re saying it has nothing to do with education?
RAVITCH: Absolutely not. There are plenty of unemployed people who have excellent education in Math and in Science and they can’t find jobs because American workers want too much money. That’s why these corporations are outsourcing to India and China because they can get engineers who are less well-trained, less well-educated but get them much, much cheaper inspect. This is about the cost of labor and the corporations not wanting to pay the cost of American workers.
KAYE: In many lines of work, the best performance — best performers get better pay. I know how you feel about merit pay for teachers, but why shouldn’t the same be true for teachers and award those who consistently inspire and enlighten our children?
RAVITCH: Teachers don’t want merit pay because they understand that merit pay will force them to teach to bad tests. They don’t want to compete with one another for test scores. Teachers understand, and this is — I’ve talked to literally a couple hundred thousand teachers.
KAYE: You’re saying they don’t want more money?
RAVITCH: They want more money but they don’t want merit pay. They want to be paid more for doing more but they don’t want to compete based on test scores. Test scores are not a measure of who’s a good teacher. It can be a measure of who’s a very bad teacher who simply drills the kids in test prep. Teachers want to work as teams, they want to collaborate. They understand that if a child gets a high test score, it can be the result of cheating. It can be the result of drilling to the test, which are both bad, but basically what makes the schoolwork is teamwork and collaboration. Teachers want that kind of a culture of teamwork. They don’t want to compete with one another for test scores and to be treated like donkeys where they’re competing for a carrot.
KAYE: Obviously, this is a very — it’s a pretty heated debate. You know, there’s a lot of folks on both sides of this. I want to share some of the comments that your article generated; a whole lot of comments, both good and bad.
Let me read you this one from Lucas. He says “I’m a teacher in a low income school. Teachers can and do make a profound difference and they can overcome the intimidating obstacles created by poverty. Some of my eighth graders attend school regularly but cannot read even on a first grade level. This is a scandal. Merit pay need not be done in a way that makes teachers compete within their school. Offering a bonus for a job well done is not a ‘war on teachers’.”
How do you respond to that?
RAVITCH: I respond to it that New York City tried giving merit pay to the whole school and that failed. Nashville offered a $15,000 bonus for higher test scores and that failed. Chicago tried another form of merit pay and that failed. It simply doesn’t work.
Of course, poverty can be overcome. Of course, teachers make a difference. But you can look at any testing program, whether it’s the SAT or the SAT or the international test or any state test, they all show that the high income kids are at the top and the low income kids are at the bottom because poverty makes a difference.
KAYE: All right. Diane Ravitch, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
RAVITCH: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WoW!! What a set up that was!! Totally disgusting on the part of the interviewer who really didn’t listen to the responses. You can tell she was very well coached into trying to get Diane on the defensive. Still trying to sell merit pay!!! Hello!! It doesn’t work. And we know charters are not the miracle cures they claim to be.
The student’s biggest problem looked like spelling. Well, when you take spelling and grammar out of the curriculum as was done here in NYC, what the hell do you expect. I was never a believer in “invented spelling”, yet here we are years later and kids still don’t know how to spell. I do a lesson where I ask children to circle their tricky words then look them up because I believe students should self-edit. After all that’s the ELA standard: “I will revise and edit my written work.” A composition like that would never leave my classroom without having conferred with the student. It would have been considered his first draft.
Ms. Kaye should have looked at what is working. I said it before and I will say it again–why isn’t anyone bringing up Montgomery County, Maryland, including Diane. That superintendent said NO THANK YOU to the RTTT funding because their evaluation system (which is a team effort) is working and it’s not based on testing. Is there something I don’t know about Montgomery County?? Is it a failure??? I would have no problem working under that system because it seems fair and balanced to me. It gives struggling teachers 2 years to improve with the help of mentors. I think that’s fair. Once principals and a team know who there good teachers are, they can put the emphasis on those teachers with great potential. And if you cannot cut it, then this profession is not right for you. As long as teachers still have due process rights, I see no problem with it.
But if this program is truly working, why isn’t it discussed. I would really appreciate a response on this.
Thanks,
Schoolgal
K,
I’m a little dense, so could you help me understand this better. First of all, Kaye’s lead is quite pathetic in regards to making Dr. Ravitch defend NAEP scores. Because could we not say then with improving NAEP scores, NCLB has worked, poverty is not an issue, etc?
So Kaye did not allow Dr. Ravitch to share important things like the testing craze as ruining the best school system in the world?
I mean I really feel there are bad things happening on in public schools. It’s called federal policy. While I don’t like the essay that Kaye gave as an example, it seems that we’ve come to a place where we are being forced to implement poor practice in the name of improving test scores.
So NAEP scores being at their all time high in America doesn’t seem to help the fight over pathetic NCLB and now RTTT policy?
And, we thinking how I’d love to tell CNN to put Rhee and Dr. Ravitch on together. . . without the bias. But that may be impossible?
Want to see the video! Any recommedations?
Call now. I did. They called back and I didn’t get the phone. They left a message that the transcript was posted. I am calling back in a minute to ask why the video isn’t posted especially since they posted the Rheeject.
Sorry…I meant to leave this as well:
Please call and/or email CNN to ask when the “interview” will be posted:
CNN: 404.827.1500
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/
Go to this blog site on CNN
http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/16/overheard-on-cnn-debate-between-ravitch-rhee-teacher-just-let-me-teach/
Many good responses from the public. Good job, Diane on your interview.
Kaye’s questions were generally abysmal. One awful essay (perhaps even written by an ELL or special ed student) is an indictment against an entire district? Please.
I thought you came across extremely well and were able to keep your message clear and focused despite some tough questioning. If anything, having an interviewer like this can make you look stronger if you handle it well. Brava for being able to take the heat.
It was so great to hear your dignified answers to some really undignified questions. For the host to read that child’s writing sample out loud was especially low. Your response was as level headed and apt as could be. Thank you!
Diane, Given the high pressure circumstances of that interview, I think you did extremely well! You are a trooper!
The comment that CNN provided from “teacher” “Lucas” was very suspicious to me, so I found it on their webpage and, after reading it in its entirety (they used an edited version on TV), I left the following comment there:
Lucas, Your comment raises the following question: Why would someone with 8th graders who “cannot read, even on a first grade level” claim that “Teachers can and do make a profound difference, and they can overcome the intimidating obstacles created by poverty”, when it’s clear that they have not been able to do that for their own students?
Since it is now the summer and you spoke in the present tense, it’s not difficult to deduce that you were probably referring to students in Summer School. This means, most likely, you are in a 5 week summer training program for Rhee’s Teach for America or her TNTP Fellows program and not yet a teacher –let alone an experienced teacher with a track record in helping struggling students to overcome poverty. (Quoting Rhee’s line about teachers not being “interchangeable widgets” is a giveaway, too.) I hope you find success in ameliorating poverty in your new job as a first year teacher.
Shame on CNN for opting to select the comment of one “teacher” here who is clearly a shill for Rhee and not a veteran teacher, to posit against Diane Ravitch, in the interview that aired today –as if this “teacher” is representative of a faction of experienced teachers who support merit pay. Teachers do not go into education for the pay! They choose to teach in order to make a difference in the lives of children, and they know they will never become rich doing that.
Also, veteran teachers know that a lot more than education needs to go into addressing the nearly 25% child poverty that we have in this country today, including the many out-of-school factors impacting poor children. Instead though, our government continues to ignore poverty and passes it off onto teachers to deal with by themselves.
Randi Kaye, Rather than setting up Dr. Ravitch, who cares very much about pubic education, you should have tapped into her plethora of knowledge and asked for her insights. In what looked like a campaign to support Rhee’s positions, CNN ambushed a respected scholar, who could have shared a lot more valuable information if you’d not had your own agenda, including about the privatization of public education that Rhee and her billionaire sponsors support.
If you want to know about the outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries, then investigate why our government continues to let corporations take tax credits for doing that. Find out why the tax code permits large corporations to pay their CEOs more than they pay in taxes. Determine why corporate executives are allowed to take unlimited deductions for “performance-based” pay, including stock options, like the 5 CEOs from among the top 26 companies who deducted $232M last year, as reported in the news this week. And please be sure to investigate why billionaires fail to pay employees in the trenches livable wages.
CNN, You have revealed your biases, compromised professional ethics and, in so doing, failed to capitalize on the opportunity to shed much light on a very serious matter. You have a lot to learn about objective journalism.
BTW, the original comment by Lucas and my response to it can be found here:
http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/09/my-view-rhee-is-wrong-and-misinformed/comment-page-5/#comment-52661
Diane, since TV shows tend to show graphics to demonstrate points, as CNN did in your interview, you might want to consider creating and bringing along some of your own graphics, such as something from the Nation’s Report Card website which shows the NAEP trends:
http://nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2008/
Some other websites also have graphs of NAEP trends:
http://blog.ednewscolorado.org/2010/03/30/naep-score-trends-not-so-flat-after-all
Here is my email to CNN:
Can you please help me understand why Michelle Rhee is such a supposed authority figure on public education? She has failed at being a teacher (her own comments about duct taping a child’s mouth) and as an administrator (the Washington D.C. debacle). She is no authority. Whose mouthpiece is she?
Why do you have 24 videos of her and yet haven’t posted the one you did on Saturday morning with Diane Ravitch? Personally I feel Randi was far too one sided on this.
Whatever happened to objective journalism? I am very disappointed with CNN. In an attempt to make our schools into the ‘everyone marching in a row in unison Chinese way of education’, we are turning our country into China. Who is controlling what you say and how you say it? Why is the real truth about public education (that is is great in most schools) so wrong to report?
As of 10:42 AM Sunday morning, I still cannot find Diane Ravitch’s video on CNN. Has anyone found it? Why is it not posted yet? For me the big issue is that CNN either knows how bad Randi Kaye was and will not post because it makes them look bad or they only want to show one side of the issue. Either way this is unethical, they are controlling the story and the issues, and deciding what people can see which is dangerous. They show Rhee’s video whose credentials do not even remotely stack up to Diane Ravitch’s. They promote Rhee as an expert along with Gates but do not interview or highlight the real experts who have done authentic meaningful research, or have actually taught for years. In my opinion this CNN segment it just a marketing piece and was never intended to really address the tough issues.
I have not found it either.
As soon as I get it, I will post it.
I would think an NPR show like On the Media would be interested in this obvious case of bias and censorship– I also keep hoping it will pop up on YouTube or Vimeo– seems like a pretty clear case of Fair Use although if CNN is determined to keep it off the web they will likely succeed. Like a lot of people reading this, I have written CNN, and received canned responses thanking me for feedback and viewer pressure is why they succumbed to having Diane on in the first place as a counter to Rhee, right!? I think we should keep it up
It’s 3:38 Sunday afternoon? Where’s the video? I thought it was going to be on at 10 a.m. EST per Ravitch’s post. Did anyone post it on youtube yet?
CNN stil has not posted this video. It was on Saturday morning. What’s keeping them? Although I read the transcript, I would like to see the video.
I am sending one email and making one phone call every day until it airs or I totally give up on CNN. I did yesterday; I did today and I will every day next week. Can you do the same?
There’s still nothing on-line that I could turn up at 5:20 PM EST
Yeah, this is making me angry.
Linda. Done, and will continue – called and emailed.
I must say I was embarassed for Randi Kaye. It was painful to watch someone in her position flounder so badly due to an obvious lack of knowledge and preparation. I just cringed when she said National Assessment of Educational “Process,” with matching captions, obviously not knowing the “P” is for progress. Sigh. Perhaps she would do well to spend some time on the Education Writers Association web page. There is a wealth of information there to help journalists understand important issues in education.
http://www.ewa.org/site/PageServer
as of early morning Monday this is what a “Ravitch” search gets on the CNN.com page:
Your search ravitch did not match any documents
Someone suggested a Ravitch v Rhee appearance without any bias– just the two “thought leaders” having a discussion. That sounds like a great idea and if CNN won’t hold it, maybe MSNBC would– of course Rhee would have to accept and she’d probably be busy and unavailable . . .
It’s Paul Ryan – Not School Teachers – Putting Children At Risk…
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Here is the CNN interview of Diane Ravitch by Randi Kaye.
Did I just watch Fox News??? It was pretty much the same type interview.