No, I am not a Luddite. No one can use technology as intensively as I do and be fairly accused of being anti-technology.
I am just naturally skeptical of the claims made for all miracle cures, whether it is snake oil, video game-playing, or the Land of Oz.
I promise you, when I see a guy with a crown who is buck naked, I’ll be the first to say so even if he is an emperor.
So I want to know: Can you really learn to be a carpenter at an online college? Can you learn HVAC online? Can you become a master electrician online?
My rant was brought on by an article in the Wall street Jpurnal. Someone said you can’t read it without a subscription. The quote follows this post.
Maybe it’s possible. I am not passing judgment. I’d like to know.
I’m not saying it can’t be done.
But I just finished a basement renovation, and I am afraid that the guys I hired learned their trades online.
Just wondering.
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The Regulatory Power to Destroy
The Department of Education and the unjustified ruin of a for-profit col
Dark Knight Rises” hits theaters this week, and no surprise some liberals are comparing the villain Bane to . . . care to take a guess? In this comic conception of the world, corporations always play the Bane to government’s Batman. Regulators may have expansive powers, but they’re rarely so heroic. In fact, they’re often the real bane.
Take the case of for-profit Decker College, which a federal bankruptcy judge has concluded was driven into bankruptcy seven years ago by its accreditor’s falsehoods that followed unusual regulatory intervention. A fact-finding report by Judge Thomas Fulton of the Western District of Kentucky last week vindicates the college, but it comes too late to save the company and many of its creditors, who include students and workers.
***
Decker spiraled into insolvency in the fall of 2005 after the Council on Occupational Education unfairly withdrew accreditation of its online programs in carpentry, electrical science and HVAC (heating, ventilation and air conditioning). That made Decker ineligible for federal student aid, its largest revenue source.
CEO William Weld, the former Massachusetts Governor, had no choice but to close up shop and hand control to bankruptcy trustee Robert Keats to settle $57 million in claims. Some 500 employees lost their jobs, and stories about Decker undermined Mr. Weld’s attempt to run for Governor in New York in 2006.
Mr. Keats has sought to recoup some federal student aid by challenging the Council’s statements to the Department of Education that it had never accredited Decker’s online programs. As a parenthetical, it may seem odd to teach construction over the Internet, but about 100 proprietary schools now do….
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Can you learn to be a carpenter without ever picking up a tool? No. Whether you are educated at a brick and mortar Community College or online, there has to be a practical aspect. There is a place for online classes that include practicums – for any subject. Not being tied to a brick and mortar location can make it more feasible for people to be out in the field getting hands-on experience with experts, regardless of where those experts might be.
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Not sure that anyone called virtual schools a “miracle cure”; and I don’t know if you can learn to be a carpenter or master HVAC or become a master electrician entirely on-line.
But here’s a report from Yankton South Dakota about the South Dakota Virtual School. This is not a charter. It’s a collection of courses approved by the South Dakota Dept of Education. Apparently sometimes a school district pays for a middle or high school student to take one or more classes, and sometimes the student pays.
http://www.yankton.net/articles/2012/07/24/community/doc500e190abc0eb412490627.txt
Here’s info from the South Dakota Dept of Ed website:
http://www.sdvs.k12.sd.us/
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Joe,
Man you’re gonna make me go to those sites to read what’s there. Damn-I’ll get to that later. But just because something is “approved” by a state’s Department of Education does not in any way, means or form, say that such education is adequate.
“I don’t know if you can learn to be a carpenter or master HVAC or become a master electrician entirely on-line.”
Man, if you don’t understand, god how can I put this nicely, the fact that one cannot even begin to become a “master” HVAC or electrician, not only “entirely on line” but the fact that it’s less than about let’s say 10% of what one needs to know/do to be qualified to be a “master” then I’ve got some great ocean front property down at the Lake of the Ozarks in central Missouri to sell you cheaply. just send me your bank account number authorizing me to withdraw a couple of hundreds of thousands of dollars from your account. It would go a long way to helping this public school teacher’s finances.
Have you ever been a “master” in anything that didn’t involve the academic, non trades realm? Doesn’t appear so. Not only do I consider myself a “master” teacher, not just because I’ve gotten a masters degree (that’s the least of it) but because I’ve been teaching for over 18 years now and have built up a repertoire of practices that serve me well and even then I still encounter things that I haven’t encountered in years past.
I am a master upholsterer. Have any idea what that means? Most people don’t so I don’t fault you for not knowing. I worked with upholstery for a living for around ten years, not to mention working with sewing, and that sort of thing growing up-how many high schoolers do you know who could make and sell ice hockey goaltender’s leg pads? Yep, I did that. I believe I know what being a “master”, especially something that involves working with one’s hands, means. And it takes a minimum of five years to begin to master a trade or craft.
So, these virtual schools that you seem to promote leave a hell of a lot to be desired. Virtual reality is not reality it is “irreality” to it’s highest degree.
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I guess it depends on the program. My wife did part of her midwifery program on-line. They did all of the lecture and book stuff on-line, and then met for several 40+ hour intensive hands-on weeks, as well as doing residencies with working midwives. So I guess that would be called a blended program rather than an on-line program. Still I wonder if a carpentry program works in a similar way.
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In response to your last sentence, NO! Not even close. Man haven’t people worked with their own hands at all doing carpentry, plumbing (one I hate the most), painting or hanging wallpaper, or automotive work?
Maybe that’s what’s wrong with public education, too many teachers that have too little life experiences other than schooling.
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Looks like you have to be a subscriber to read the full article.
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Yeah, I have to get my life long friend who has a subscription to WSJ to open it up for us.
Same with Ed Week.
Be nice to have the kind of money to do that but on a public school teacher’s salary . . . ?
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My son just finished his first year as an electrician apprentice. Full days of on-the-job, 6 am to 3 pm, and homework everynight. Then full day classes 3 days a month. And he will need four more years of same to be certified as a master electrician. Also needs to pass random drug testing. His union runs a very tight ship — protecting their “brand.”
Taking shortcuts in the trades can be fatal to the practitioners and the consumers.
I’m a certified geek – but technology has its place. Hire qualified tradespeople.
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Well, as part of Reading First, all the K-3 classroom/reading/special education teachers and assistants in my school had to complete all the online modules in the New York State Reading Academy. Why, it worked so well that the following year New York State made us complete all the online modules of Voyager: Reading for Understanding. Of course, after studying a topic online we had opportunities to try things out with our students and then meet to reflect and discuss everything in study groups. Since then, we’ve made AYP every year and always managed to stay off the SINI list, so I guess you could say it was successful, but that was under NCLB where at least everything was clearly defined. Now, with APPR, CCSS, RTTT and waivers, everything seems to be about as clear as mud and we’re all sort of stumbling along trying to figure out just what it is that the powers that be actually do want. Consensus opinion is that there really isn’t much of a plan, that they’re winging it and making it up as they go along, and that seems to be validated by the constant updates and questionable quality of the materials and guidance offered by NYSED through the EngageNY website. When I was in the private sector, we called this “discovery based learning,” which meant just keep trying until you finally figure out what the boss wants. How well you can learn from any course, online or otherwise, would have to start with the quality of the course design.
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“Since then, we’ve made AYP every year”
Sorry to be snarky but what a “noble” goal!!
In other words quit chasing phantoms.
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We’re a small rural district with a high poverty rate and limited resources. We’re not chasing phantoms, but trying to outrun demons. We simply can’t afford to suffer any of the consequences that go along with not meeting state regulations and mandates.
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Ed,
I thoroughly understand about being a small rural district. That’s my district. But until we stand up to this excrement of a bovine origin that is NCLB, RATT and state mandates we will continue to be not only “outrunning demons” (great turn of a phrase) but will be haunted by the phantoms. We do have it in our power to resist. Do we choose to or not?
Where do we start? That has to be up to each individual teacher. And it’s a hell of a lot easier for me to say since my subject area is not tested and won’t be before I retire.
Good luck, please continue to fight it as you can!
Duane
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I’m currently enrolled in a distance learning Ph.D. program in Latin through the University of Florida. At one time, I was enrolled in a traditional Classics Ph.D. program. In terms of intellectual rigor and what not, it’s about the same. Classes are a lot like face-to-face classes would be, except we meet using either Blackboard or soon Adobe Connect. Much depends upon the professors, and truthfully I vastly am enjoying and learning more in this environment than when I was in the traditional program, although most of that is the professors and not the learning environment. During the summers, as part of the requirements, we meet face-to-face for the Summer Institute. This gives students and professors to connect in a more personal way, although since the class is for a limited time, one has to work like a fiend to complete them. So, this is in many ways a blended class. With that being said, I don’t think that it is for everyone. It takes a committment to time management and dedication to one’s studies, plus a tolerance for consistent lack of sleep (classes run till 10PM sometimes on the East Coast, and when one needs to be at work by 7AM, it can be tiring).
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Well, considering that Latin is a “dead” language I can understand why “distance” learning might be very similar to actual classes. How, many people actually speak latin?
Probably one of the few subjects for which distance learning might actually be acceptable considering it mainly focuses on reading and writing and not speaking and listening (unless you’re into the old latin masses).
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In the “olden” days, there used to be correspondence courses for those who lived far from any school. Especially in the times of poor travel and rural areas were more populated than they are now. People took their courses through the mail and sent their school work to a for profit school. I was reminded of this sort of class when I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Thailand, it wasn’t uncommon for many to do some kind of correspondence course. I don’t remember anyone comparing these courses to a real college or university course and I never heard of a great person of any type that received their education this way. There should be someone if they were worthwhile. More than being a great way to learn, I think the reality was that they enabled people a learning situation when they were too busy to be committed any other way or to further learn something when there was no other opportunity. Online courses have their place in some situations but never can take the place of a college or university for most people. What is a current danger that didn’t exist in the past was the ability for colleges to make a good deal of money by allowing federal and state loans for these courses. These colleges and corporations are charging exorbitant fees and taking federal money for them.
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I’m a little disappointed by some of the condescending, almost vitriolic opinions expressed in some of the comments. While I agree that many (if not most) of the current online programs from K-12 to workplace training are very poor, I believe it IS possible to have effective online training programs in just about every venue (including fields like carpentry, etc). BUT, that does NOT mean that ALL online programs are effective NOR that online study is appropriate for all students. The key lies in innovation. With the tools currently available, it is possible to build online learning environments in which students get highly personalized instruction and receive as much (if not more) individual attention/feedback as they do in a “traditional classroom”. It is similarly possible to create engaging formats in which students can interact with one another – it has even been suggested that this sort of remote interaction will actually encourage higher levels of participation from some students who would be too intimidated to participate comfortably in a face-to-face setting. One of the greatest strengths of online learning is its potential to allow self pacing which has enormous potential to transform students’ experience with education. Advanced students will never have to deal with the boredom associated with waiting for the rest of the class to ‘catch up’, and struggling students will never have to deal with the stigma of being the one slowing everyone else down and the frustration that goes along with it. Further, online learning has the potential to bridge many of the gaps that currently prevent the full integration of many students with disabilities (e.g., deaf and severely visually impaired students). I can think of many, many, other potential benefits to a well-structured online learning program: targeting support services (e.g., counselors), increased equity in availability of educational resources and uniformity of programming just to name a few
Obviously, effective online learning in most cases must be more than simply reading material and taking a test (particularly for practical programs (e.g., carpentry)). Teachers must still interact regularly and closely with students in order to assess progress and to guide instruction. Webcams, screen-sharing software, Skype, and countless other tools can help meet this need AND have the benefit of being recordable so that the teacher can review the complete interaction later and save it as a formative assessment. I also envision an opportunity where parents/caretakers can be directly involved in their children’s education – particularly in the critical pre-k setting. Imagine if a student didn’t have to miss school because of a trip to Grandma’s house, or even a case of the chicken pox!
Is online learning here yet? No. Does that mean it never can be? No. For me, I think the most dangerous thing that we as educators can do now, though, is to sit back and complain about online education. That gives the corporate interests an excuse not to consult with us as more and more programs are developed and allows them to shape the programs in their own image (which we all agree places students second to profit). Instead, I think we need to latch on to online learning as an opportunity to help shape the future of education and aggressively seek ways to be involved.
(And for the record, I’ve had the benefit of working with students from online teacher education programs whom I felt were better prepared to enter student teaching and had more rigorous expectations to meet during student teaching than most students from “traditional” teacher prep programs.)
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Since online education programs now graduate the largest number of teachers and masters degrees in education, I’m interested in your thoughts about why they are better prepared than those who go through traditional programs. We now refer to online education degrees as traditional, and face-to-face programs as nontraditional.
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Before answering, I should specify that I’ve only worked with students from one online program. I know there are many others that essentially “sell degrees”. Based on my experiences with these students, though, I think there are several factors that contributed to being better prepared.
First, students in this program had a much more structured pre-service component in which requirements built on one another leading up to student teaching – basically the poster child for instructional scaffolding and similar in many ways to apprenticeship-style learning in other fields. They begin small by observing a lesson and then meeting with the teacher afterward to discuss everything from how and why the teacher created the lesson to the teacher’s observations about its effectiveness. By the end, they have to work with a teacher to create and teach lessons that not only integrate content from across the curriculum, but also incorporate technology and multiple differentiation strategies to accommodate learners with different needs. Along the way they not only get feedback from the teacher but also have to submit and defend very detailed (several pages!!) lesson plans before they teach and post-teaching reflections of the lesson. I compare that to students from the traditional programs for whom pre-service experience is essentially a job. They clock in and clock out as assigned but have no real structured requirements beyond that. Most end up grading papers for most of the semester and possibly working with a small group or two. For the online program, it’s about the outcomes while for the traditional program it is mostly about completing the hours.
Second, the students from this online program seem to come to student teaching with a better idea of the “big picture” of teaching – I think in large part because of their pre-service experience. For example, in my experience, very few students from traditional programs understand the process of actually planning lessons and units. They can create exciting lesson plans, but they have no concept of how to string those lessons together in a meaningful way that ensures all of the standards are addressed within a school year while ALSO considering the costs those lessons will have in terms of grading time or amounts of homework for students. Because the students from this online program have discussed the process of lesson planning over and over again by the time they get to student teaching, they tend to “get it” from day one.
Third, again in my experience, most students from traditional programs are used to having everything sectioned off – math is taught at one time with these methods and social studies is taught at another time with completely different methods (because that’s how the methods courses are taught). This seems to be most distinct when it comes to adapting lessons for students with disabilities/ELLs, etc. They took a special education course and a math methods course, but were given very little guidance about bridging the two because there’s little to no overlap in the coursework. The much more fluid nature of the online program seems to do a much better job of this by allowing topics to continually be revisited throughout the program. As an interesting comparison, one of the comments I regularly hear from traditional program students is that they wish they had done more with differentiation in the program. Conversely, I’ve had 2 students from the online program complain that having to incorporate a specific differentiation plan on every lesson plan they submit was like beating a dead horse.
I can keep going, but those are a few of the important ones. The thing that gets me, though, is that there’s really nothing beyond artificial boundaries stopping the traditional schools from utilizing the same or similar approaches as the online program.
I also want to say that there are several things that traditional programs seem to do better in my opinion -for example, leveraging the resources available through other departments (e.g., inviting a professor from the biology department to lecture in a science methods course). Traditional programs also tend to have much more flexibility within their courses of study.
I hope that helps!
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