High school rankings by popular media usually take into account how many students take AP exams. Some high schools push students to take AP courses whether or not they are prepared, just to satisfy the rankings. But are the AP courses an appropriate measure of high quality?
A few of the nation’s top private and public high schools have dropped the AP courses, on the belief that their teachers created better courses than the AP. See here and here .
A reader responded to an earlier post about the Tucson BASIS charter schools by questioning the value of AP courses and tests:
“Here is the essence of what Tim Steller wrote about BASIS-Tuscon: “the Basis schools require students to take eight AP courses before graduation, take six AP tests and pass at least one…That naturally helps Basis place high in the U.S. News rankings” And, it is ALL about the rankings. And the College Board’s Advanced Placement program (which Diane neglected to mention).
Steller adds this important point in his article about BASIS, made by an education consultant: “AP has pulled the wool over people’s eyes across the nation…”
Actually, it’s the College Board that has “pulled the wool over people’s eyes.” About AP, to be sure. But also about the SAT and PSAT, and Accuplacer, the placement test used by more than 60 percent of community colleges. They’re all mostly worthless, more hype than reality.
Consider the Advanced Placement program, pushed shamelessly buy the College Board, and by Jay Mathews at The Washington Post (Mathews started the Challenge Index, a ranking of high schools based on the number of AP tests they give).
A 2002 National Research Council study of AP courses and tests found them to be a “mile wide and an inch deep” and inconsistent with research-based principles of learning.
A 2004 study by Geiser and Santelices found that “the best predictor of both first- and second-year college grades” is unweighted high school grade point average, and a high school grade point average “weighted with a full bonus point for AP…is invariably the worst predictor of college performance.”
A 2005 study (Klopfenstein and Thomas) found AP students “…generally no more likely than non-AP students to return to school for a second year or to have higher first semester grades.” Moreover, the authors wrote that “close inspection of the [College Board] studies cited reveals that the existing evidence regarding the benefits of AP experience is questionable,” and “AP courses are not a necessary component of a rigorous curriculum.”
A 2006 MIT faculty report noted ““there is ‘a growing body of research’ that students who earn top AP scores and place out of institute introductory courses end up having ‘difficulty’ when taking the next course.”
Two years prior, Harvard “conducted a study that found students who are allowed to skip introductory courses because they have passed a supposedly equivalent AP course do worse in subsequent courses than students who took the introductory courses at Harvard” (Seebach, 2004).
Dartmouth found that high scores on AP psychology tests do NOT translate into college readiness for the next-level course. Indeed, students admit that ““You’re not trying to get educated; you’re trying to look good;” and, “”The focus is on the test and not necessarily on the fundamental knowledge of the material.”
Students know that AP is far more about gaming the college acceptance process than it is learning.
In The ToolBox Revisited (2006), Adelman wrote about those who had misstated his original ToolBox (1999) work: “With the exception of Klopfenstein and Thomas (2005), a spate of recent reports and commentaries on the Advanced Placement program claim that the original ToolBox demonstrated the unique power of AP course work in explaining bachelor’s degree completion. To put it gently, this is a misreading.”
Ademan goes on to say that “Advanced Placement has almost no bearing on entering postsecondary education,” and when examining and statistically quantifying the factors that relate to bachelor’s degree completion, Advanced Placement does NOT “reach the threshold level of significance.”
The 2010 book “AP: A Critical Examination” noted that “Students see AP courses on their transcripts as the ticket ensuring entry into the college of their choice,” yet, “there is a shortage of evidence about the efficacy, cost, and value of these programs.” And this: AP has become “the juggernaut of American high school education,” but “ the research evidence on its value is minimal.”
As Geiser (2007) notes, “systematic differences in student motivation, academic preparation, family background and high-school quality account for much of the observed difference in college outcomes between AP and non-AP students.” College Board-funded studies do not control well for these student characteristics (even the College Board concedes that “interest and motivation” are keys to “success in any course”).
Klopfenstein and Thomas (2010) find that when these demographic characteristics are controlled for, the claims made for AP disappear.
Yet, the myths –– especially about AP, the SAT and PSAT –– endure.
Meanwhile, the College Board is promoting the Common Core and says it has “aligned” (cough, wink) its products with it. And people believe it. Stopping corporate-style “reform and the Common Core is easier said than done. Parents, students and educators are going to have to remove the wool from over their eyes. And that means abandoning blind belief in the College Board and the products it peddles.”
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Universities are in the dark ages
In terms of what? How would they get out of the dark ages?
I think the number of AP classes and student success on the exam can tell an outsider something about the school’s commitment to strong students. Local conditions also need to be taken into account as well. Living in a university town means that many of the strongest students in the local high school simply take the university classes while still in high school. I think this is preferable when it is possible.
Okay, I’ll bite. There are problems with some AP courses, but I think you’re painting with a broad brush here. My story is obviously anecdotal, but here at Lowell HS (just outside Grand Rapids, MI), our AP teachers aren’t focused on the test, nor do they teach “a mile wide and an inch deep” (that will happen, however, with Common Core). We take all students who want to attempt the course; those who succeed (in class and on the exam) find themselves better prepared for their first year of college than the average student. I’d also suggest that a 2002 study of AP course rigor isn’t relevant; there have been many changes to the courses over the past 11 years.
It doesn’t matter if my AP Lit students are Harvard-bound (where AP credits mean zilch) or heading to Grand Rapids Community College, they come back to tell me and my colleagues that what we put them through was more difficult than their first year of college.
We’re proud of our US News & World Report ranking because we aren’t one of those selective schools at the top, but we are keeping up with the more affluent districts in our region. It’s easy to take shots at the College Board, Jay Matthews, and the charter schools at the top. But it’s not fair to lump all AP teachers, courses, and (especially) students, into that group.
Full disclosure: I’ve taught AP Lit for 14 years, AP Langauge for 5, and have worked as an AP Lit Exam Reader for 7. While I take a week’s pay from CB, I know that the time I spend working with other teachers and professors is the most valuable professional development I’ve had in almost 20 years of teaching.
Wait a second….I cite a lot of research on AP (to be sure,I gave a summary, but ehre’s much more) and you say that I’m “painting with a broad brush?”
To counter the research, you cite your personal experience.
Like I said, stopping corporate-style “reform and the Common Core is easier said than done. Parents, students and educators are going to have to remove the wool from over their eyes.
And that means abandoning blind belief in the College Board and the products it peddles.
Democracy,
Broad brush: “They’re all mostly worthless, more hype than reality.”
I admitted my reply was anecdotal. (I’ve been too busy teaching and being a father/husband/son to get back into research mode.) I also stated that there are some problems with College Board/AP, so I do not have “blind belief” as you claim.
I have not purchased a “product” “peddle[d]” by the College Board. I am no fan of Common Core, and I stand out like a sore thumb at staff meetings when that subject rears its ugly head.
I have constructed a syllabus that meets the requirements of the AP English Literature course, but that does not mean I follow a prescribed curriculum.
I do not force my students to take AP exams. I do make sure they are ready by teaching them how to analyze fiction, drama, and poetry. How to think critically.
I am in charge of what is taught, how it is taught, and how students’ work is assessed.
Finally, I’ll put my name where my writing is. My ugly mug, too.
What is the consensus on IB?
Education reform is stressing that curriculum be deepened and strengthened, and that is something AP courses have stressed for years. Why the sudden anti-AP feeling? Some institutions have dropped AP recently or upped the score needed–and some have admitted privately it is due to the fact “they need the money” students taking the entry-level courses provide. Governmental funding is sinking, and universities are scrambling. Many universities have a “special” format they want students to use in written work, and students must learn that process–but professors must teach it, not just expect students to know. AP students DO succeed at the university level, but they may have to learn the unique way a university wants its work done in a higher-level class than non-AP students do. That doesn’t mean they don’t succeed. They just adapt. True, some schools are more about getting a high ranking or bragging rights than the knowledge to be taught, but that number if fairly small. After all, out of the schools in the US, how many are ranked in top 100? Most good schools aren’t even in the running for that accolade. So in short, I feel it is counterproductive to attack a program who has tried to champion high standards. At least AP students “get something” from doing well on the AP tests–something not true in other mandated testing being touted now. If students don’t buy into a test, they won’t do as well.
The research says that this is not AP….it’s student motivation.
As Geiser (2007) notes, “systematic differences in student motivation, academic preparation, family background and high-school quality account for much of the observed difference in college outcomes between AP and non-AP students.” College Board-funded studies do not control well for these student characteristics (even the College Board concedes that “interest and motivation” are keys to “success in any course”). Klopfenstein and Thomas (2010) find that when these demographic characteristics are controlled for, the claims made for AP disappear.
I am in agreement with Jeff Larson. I am also an AP English teacher (both Language and Literature), and my students also return yearly to tell me that college papers and English classes were so much easier because of the AP class, no matter whether they took the test or got a high enough score for credit.
You also stated schools were dropping the AP program in “the belief that their teachers created better courses than the AP”. However, the AP program does not “create” courses. They provide curricular requirements, but every AP teacher chooses their own textbooks, creates their own units and lesson plans, and is responsible for covering those curricular requirements in the way that best suits their students and their teaching style. The article also lumps all AP classes together; it would be interesting to break down the various types of courses and see whether the “unprepared” students were from particular subjects or in general.
It is not the fault of the many AP teachers working hard to provide high level instruction to college bound students that high school rankings are based on AP participation. The madness currently affecting our education system, from Pre-K all the way through college degrees, including high stakes testing, ranking, “failing” schools being taken over, are all out of the hands of the local teachers. To publish this kind of article universally blasting a group of teachers I have found to be dedicated and committed to their students’ success is unhelpful, to say the least.
Christy, you say that “every AP teacher chooses their own textbooks, creates their own units and lesson plans, and is responsible for covering those curricular requirements in the way that best suits their students and their teaching style.”
But, the end result of most AP courses is the AP test. In a number of places, student were only taking AP courses to pad their transcripts, and they were abandoning the test. So, school districts began requiring the test. And flunking students who didn’t take it.
As you know, AP tests results come in long after college acceptances. And that’s the main reason kids take AP…to “look good” to college admissions offices.
Be honest. Don’t the guidance counselors at your school tell kids AP courses are a MUST….for college acceptance?
Actually, this “As you know, AP tests results come in long after college acceptances. And that’s the main reason kids take AP…to “look good” to college admissions offices” is false. It may be true of AP courses taken in the senior year of high school, but those taken as freshmen, sophomores, or juniors are back in time to be included in the college application process.
I’m the parent of a high school senior who’s headed to one of the best universities in the country– Duke (small mom brag there)– my daughter didn’t take any AP courses (she was enrolled in an early college program taking college courses her junior and senior year). I have worked at a number of schools and while students were encouraged to take AP courses– the line was always because then colleges know you are serious about your education. AP courses are more rigorous than regular high school courses and students who enroll in them typically are the ones who are more focused on competitive colleges. However, I have yet to hear a counselor tell a student it’s a “must.”
I’m with Jeff Larsen on this one. I’ve worked with low-income immigrant families whose children were enrolled in AP classes, and they report that participating in these classes helps their children do better across the board in all classes and gives their children a leg-up in applying to and actually succeeding in college. This is the same argument made by the district, one that is committed to educational equity for all students.
The research (unless it comes from the College Board) doesn’t support this assertion.
For example, Klopfenstein and Thomas (2005) found that AP students “…generally no more likely than non-AP students to return to school for a second year or to have higher first semester grades.” Moreover, they write that “close inspection of the [College Board] studies cited reveals that the existing evidence regarding the benefits of AP experience is questionable,” and “AP courses are not a necessary component of a rigorous curriculum.”
College Board executives often say that if high schools implement AP courses and encourage more students to take them, then (1) more students will be motivated to go to college and (2) high school graduation rates will increase. Researchers Kristin Klopfenstein and Kathleen Thomas (2010) “conclude that there is no evidence to back up these claims.”
I believe AP courses do have value. Obviously, some AP teachers are better than others. Certain teachers at my school have reputations for extreme difficulty, and I’ve heard students say “if you want to get a 5 on the AP exam you need to take Ms. X’s class.” However, I have reservations regarding why many students choose to take them. Reasons I have heard directly from students:
1. I take AP classes because it’s cheaper than taking the course in college
2. I take AP classes because it boosts my class rank
3. I take AP classes because it’s easier than taking the course in college
4. I take AP classes because even if I get a bad grade I still get the extra grade point
5. I take AP classes so I can graduate early from college
I just wonder why students are in such a hurry to finish college, and what is the true cost to their education, and our work force? We have an army of 22 year old college graduates and not enough jobs. High School students are so stressed about these AP exams, it pains me to watch them fret. But my number one beef with these AP exams is the fact that they remove students from classes to take them during school.
I teach a fine arts course that is extremely popular with overachieving smart kids. They all take numerous AP courses and exams. For two weeks in May my rehearsals are decimated because all of my students are taking tests. Now with EOC/STAAR testing combined with AP, we might as well have ended school in April. Why do these tests have to be given during school, taking away valuable instruction? It is impossible to teach as effectively when you have a huge chunk of your class missing each day (a different chunk each day). Why can’t they give these AP tests after school is out?
Because of all the testing I am forced to “dumb down” the music we perform at our final concert because we simply don’t have enough time to prepare. The students get upset because they are used to performing music at a high level of difficulty, and they want their last concert to be the most impressive. However, they would be even more upset if they performed the music badly. How can you rehearse when half the group is missing for two weeks straight? It is particularly frustrating for my class because our performance is a team effort. But really, how can any teacher expect students to perform their best in any subject when they are not in class to learn the material?
I would add a couple of additional reasons to your list:
6. I take AP classes because they are more interesting and challenging
7. I take AP classes because they are the only ones left to take in the subjects I am interested in.
Your #6 is true for many kids, but I wonder how many would continue to take the course if not given the extra grade point.
They don’t get an extra grade point in my state.
I completely empathize with you. One crusty old teacher who mentored me some 40 years ago once said, “You can’t do anything after May 1. Just accept it.” My grandson’s final Jazz Band and Chorus concerts are in early June. He’s also taking 4 AP courses as a JUNIOR! He’s stressed out. His directors are stressed out. Next year MY performing arts students will take their first set of IB exams. I’m already stressed out. But, I’m planning on the basis of “You can’t do anything after May 1st. Just Accept it.”
That’s a good pont. And in some schools – perhaps many – nothing of substance does take place after May 1.
Some students remarked about one teacher who just showed the Daily Show for a month. And actually, it’s possible that students learned more in that month than they had all year in class.
The research finds that the vast majority of students who take AP courses do NOT graduate earlier and thus do not save money.
Your students cite reasons like these for taking AP:
“I take AP classes because it boosts my class rank; I take AP classes because even if I get a bad grade I still get the extra grade point”
It’s all about looking good, Not the learning.
No student in my state would cite those reasons as only unweighted GPAs are computed and used for class rank, etc.
The majority may not actually graduate earlier…but they THINK they will and that’s one of the main attractions of AP/Dual credit classes.
But it’s the universities that give them that extra grade point; any extra grade points the high schools add, colleges delete.
Actually we can also all thank Jay Matthew’s rating game in mass publications for an additional incentive to spark kids to take too many AP courses and exams, not for the intrinsic love of a subject, but only to be put on the right pile of applicants to the select colleges they seek to enter. We can also thank the School districts who want to raise real estate values by advertising how many AP courses they offer, and how high they are on Matthews’ rankings.
I personally know of two brave high schools who bucked that trend: Fieldston, a private school, and Scarsdale HS which, as far as I know, is the only public HS to do so. For years while teaching at Scarsdale I tried to get my students to realize the choice to take an AP course or not should be based on the intrinsic love of or aptitude for a subject, not the hoped for results of taking as many exams as possible. The data showed how colleges were giving less and less actual advanced placement credit, and that the sheer numbers of over tested applicants made competition even harder. Unfortunately, my plea fell on deaf ears, out shouted by nervous parents and guidance counselors.
Finally enough teachers felt that way that the school pushed to drop most AP courses and eventually I believe all AP designation. Regardless of that decision, students (pressured by parents) still opt for advanced courses that prepare them for those same AP tests even if no AP course is offered.
This testing craze has existed for decades….When will we ever learn?
“When will we ever learn?”
Probably never, unfortunately.
I wish they did not here. I think it would ensure that only students who are genuinely interested in the coursework for the sake of learning and challenge would enroll. Here, I have students tell me they have to drop my non-AP course because it brings their GPA down, even though they have a grade of 100 in my class. GPA is everything to some kids. Too many.
Too true Texas Teacher. The problem was also that kids wouldn’t take a course they wanted to take because they thought they had to take an AP course instead.
When we will ever learn that the College Board’s products are more sham (and shameless) than not?
“Actually, it’s the College Board that has “pulled the wool over people’s eyes.” About AP, to be sure. But also about the SAT and PSAT, and Accuplacer, the placement test used by more than 60 percent of community colleges. They’re all mostly worthless, more hype than reality.”
The best example of hyperbole that I have ever seen. “They’re all mostly worthless, more hype than reality.”
Bob. try reading some research on the SAT, or Accuplacer, or AP.
Then see if what I wrote is mere exaggeration.
Bob, You don’t happen to work for SelectPrep – an ACT and SAT test prep company – do you?
For all you AP/IB lovers, read Noel Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700 to understand why those tests are completely invalid. Ranking, sorting and separating students should be an anathema in public education.
Your rhetoric is misleading. There needs to be assessments to indicate levels of achievement. Some ranking, sorting and separating is uncalled for, other times necessary.
And the AP tests are not “completely invalid.” I’ve been teaching AP long enough to know that with certainty.
Hey, Duane, ranking, sorting, and separating students is what education DOES! We all know that. If Excellence matters, that’s what is necessary, in football, basketball, and in Accadeemyball.
In OK, AP courses and tests are part of the metrics that grade schools and school districts. That forces schools to nearly demand that every student take AP, not because the student has an aptitude or passion, but because it makes the schools look good. Our students are commodities in a sad game of gaming the system. I do not entirely blame school administrators — they’re fighting for their schools, and perhaps, their jobs.
It’s a matter of ‘figure out the rules to the game and manipulate them to our favor.’
AP should be there for kids who DO have a passion for a subject and want to delve more deeply. We’re selling it to ALL parents and warning their kids will be disadvantaged if they don’t load up on AP classes — that’s not why this program exists.
One more example of ‘reformers’ grabbing onto a good thing and tainting it.
“I do not entirely blame school administrators — they’re fighting for their schools, and perhaps, their jobs.
It’s a matter of ‘figure out the rules to the game and manipulate them to our favor.’ ”
I blame them and the teachers who go along to get along by doing what your last sentence implies. No cojones!
From the prior post:
And always remember that no Value Added Score can EVER measure how much value you have added to a child’s life.”
With love,
Celia Oyler
My experience with AP (calculus) goes way back. I was in one of the first classes in the 50s, and as a professor, I determined college credit criteria and taught and coordinated the calculus (both regular, honors, and the newer soft calculus) and undergraduate curriculum.
My experience when I took it was fine, but we were subjected to an early form of distance learning (TV supplemented by the teacher). That has poisoned my views ever since on distance learning as usually practiced, which was worsened by similar experiences as a TA.
But our classroom teacher, Eleanor Graham, was terrific. To this day I remember when Roger Steubing ‘discovered’ the power rule. We had her for 3 years (at a large comprehensive high school in Cincinnati) in which we covered three years in two to make room for calculus. We didn’t break a sweat. It was a large class with many girls. Not a bad model. Several have gone on to Ph Ds.
My experience as a young professor was good in the beginning. We even had our own test to supplement the AP test.
But in the last 20++ years, things went bad. More students were pushed into AP for the high school’s own reasons, not for student’s benefit. We were faced with many students in Calc I who thought they knew Calculus, and fought us every step of the way. They had a superficial knowledge of formulas but no grasp of the concepts. They didn’t apply themselves (I think they never learned to study anything hard), flunked tests, sometimes flunked the course, and even had emotional crises. They really ruined the course for others. I had many other students come up to me and apologize for not having calculus before. I told them, great, you are not supposed to, and you have the advantage.
I have even heard reports that many high school teachers/advisors often tell students to stay in the AP class, not take the AP test, and sand bag in college. This a recipe for disaster. Better to solidify foundations.
Still, I know personally of excellent high school AP calculus teachers. Students get genuinely deserved credit for one or two semesters of college credit at quality schools, and thrive. (There is the advantage of a slower pace in high school.) That should be preserved, but it is far from the norm these days.
I don’t know the solution; but it is sad. We are being pushed (or punished) by the use of the statistics for the wrong reasons.
You summarize it well.
And it’s all a sad, shameless game. It’s about rankings. And status.
And, of course, ultimately it’s also about money.
I think you are criticizing the institution of AP, but it feels like a criticism of the teachers as well. I’m probably being sensitive because I am an AP teacher. But I know so many AP teachers (English Lit and Lang, anyway) who work VERY hard to make their classes rigorous AND real-world. The College Board only makes the tests, not the curriculum. We as teachers–again, at least in some of the disciplines–have so much latitude. With that comes huge responsibility.
If teachers have so much “latitude,” then why did the College Board require the submission of syllabi a few years back?
And don’t teachers feel pressured to cover material that is supposed to be on the test?
It depends. There are two types of “material” that an English Teacher covers: the content or text and the skills. I teach the skills — close reading, analysis, argumentation, etc with a variety of content. That content is up to me. My students generally read different texts each year as I am fickle and novelty matters to me, but the skills are the same. This may not be true for other AP courses that are more content/fact based. I can’t speak to that.
Also, students take AP courses because in my small school, those are the only courses that have teachers that teach consistent reading and writing at a level higher than 8th grade. They do it because it’s expected. They do it because the content is more interesting. They do it because they get a GPA bump (which is stripped out when my state university system runs their GPA). They do it because AP classes are shorthand for more rigor than general ed.
Maybe the solution is to get rid of all leveling and choice. The way to improve public education is, perhaps as Finland has (that bastion of enviable test scores), to decrease choice by eliminating private and charter schools. Perhaps, to increase education achievement for all, we should also eliminate tracked classes or advanced standing classes. Perhaps the goal is not excellence for some but mediocrity for all?
You’re way off here, Diane. AP courses are often extremely valuable. They can also be a waste of time or even damaging; it’s up to the teacher to make sure the class is meaningful. All the “AP” part of the class is merely the test.
How about if we phrase it this way: “Why does CB market the AP designation as if it’s the only type of high school class in which meaningful learning can happen?” That’s a line of questioning I can get behind. The main problem with the AP program is they’ve succeeded in hearding hundreds of thousands of kids into the program who don’t really belong there, citing “access” as the justification for this obviously financially motivated push. AP used to be an elite program for atypically motivated and talented kids; it should have stayed that way.
I seems, Jim, that you agree with the heading of what Diane posted, questioning whether or not the AP courses have “value.”
You say that AP courses “can also be a waste of time or even damaging….The main problem with the AP program is they’ve succeeded in hearding hundreds of thousands of kids into the program who don’t really belong there”
And the research suggests (strongly) that the value of AP courses is marginal.
You’re right, I stand corrected. We should always be questioning the value of what we do.
(Or rather the value of our specific methods and beliefs. That’s closer to what I meant to say.)
The AP program may be misused by districts and states to enhance a school’s reputation, but the courses themselves and the value they offer to the students are excellent. Unlike other testing, AP exams offer students the chance of earning credit and saving them big bucks. As of yet, there is nothing punitive about AP testing. This may change as state’s incorporate AP pass rates into their accountability system (Florida). I think any child should be able to take an AP class if they elect to but I hate seeing some students forced into AP classrooms. As a student in high school, the only classes I enjoyed and remember learning in were my AP classes even though I never took the exams at the end of the year. In the state of Florida all students sit for the exam for free, whether they have an F in the class or an A. I’m not sure who’s footing the bill for students to sleep through their AP exams, but that practice needs to end. As an AP world history teacher I have attended excellent professional development from the College Board but I would hardly classify the organization as a nonprofit.
Like many other good ideas, this is one that has been exploited and abused. As I said, when I was in the Bronx in the 1970’s and ’80s I too thought it was a good idea.
But things have changed too much.
And by the way charging $89 per test is not exactly an even playing field, even if the district forgoes the $9 they get for administration. Oh and lets not forget the several hundred to thousands of dollars many parents feel they have to pay to make their kids competitive enough….
To all those teachers who still do AP the right way and those kids who take them for the right reasons…kudos.
Who would you have pay the $89 fee for each test, the local school board? Would that “level the playing field” in your view?
Back in those days, we often paid for the kids out of our own pockets, but it was half of what it is now. Now? The college board should grant freebies to the kids from poor districts. It wont cost much and they can afford it.
Like some of the others said, the AP discussions are too broad. Certainly looking at a high school’s “quality” in terms of the number of AP courses that are required or the number of students enrolled is not helpful. However, as someone who took AP classes twenty-some years ago, I did find a benefit. It allowed me to skip a semester of music theory that would have been nothing but early-morning drudgery and boredom otherwise. It was differentiation at the college level in basic courses. Honestly, I was bored through most of the second semester of music theory too, but at least it had given me the option to study a different topic (anthropology) the first semester rather than rehashing stuff I already knew. The only thing not covered were transposing instruments, and it was easy enough to read that chapter in the book to compensate.
I took two other AP tests (history and English) and could have skipped freshman-year required courses in those, but I’d been accepted into the honors college where we took a sort of bundled 8-credit course that satisfied history/English/theology requirements (it was a religious school where theology–not to be confused with indoctrination–was required. Buddhist theology, the theology of Islam, all those were fine, for the record). Those credits came in useful in other ways (like giving me senior standing and associated privileges at the end of my sophomore year), and overall it meant that I was able to take more courses than I could fit in during my four years otherwise. Now as someone with a PhD, I can point to all the ways in which that anthropology class was helpful in my current career, and as a musicologist, I have absolutely no regrets about skipping a semester of theory.
I do have concerns, including the cost of the test. I am the product of two blue-collar parents so we didn’t take the cost of the exam lightly, but then again, I always took my education seriously and AP tests were no exception. My biggest concern today is how we are accommodating students who cannot afford to take the tests, and whether we have students taking AP classes more for the prestige or because they’re being pressured to by the administration to make the school look good than for quality, high-level instruction that meets their academic needs.
That said, I would not enroll either of my daughters into a high school that didn’t offer AP courses because both of them will need a challenge beyond the typical “college-prep” courses and I’m not particularly fond of the dual-enrollment high school/college-type courses for my children. My older child is a second-grader doing third-grade work in our district’s GT program, my younger child is very similar, and I want them to be in a high school that offers challenging classes for them as well as appropriate classes for typical and struggling students. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.
What you describe is not unusual for most of my students. I teach high school orchestra and have a large percentage of overachievers in my class. Many of my students are gifted, enjoy the challenge, and do benefit from the AP courses. I teach at a large school with 3000 students, and AP is extremely popular…but I don’t think all the students who are in AP classes are taking them for the right reasons. Some students have no business in an AP class and I often wonder how or why they ended up there. I ask them and they tell me it’s because of pressure from counselors, parents, and peers. There’s a stigma that you’ll be left behind if you don’t go mach 10 with your hair on fire and take 4-5 AP courses per year.
I’m always telling my students that I didn’t have AP/Dual credit when I was in high school, yet I managed to go to a highly regarded university, get on the dean’s list, graduate in 4 years, and land the exact job I wanted. They think I graduated in the Dark Ages (1995!) and that it’s not possible any more to do such a thing without AP.
If AP courses are seen as more rigorous and thus there is an expectation held by teacher and learner that those who complete them are smart then what happens subsequently depends on how the teacher and learner respond to that assumption/ expectation. It’s never the curriculum alone, it is how the curriculum is implemented. AP courses, appropriately and well scaffolded, will result in learning for almost all. AP courses alone don’t foster or prevent learning. I know of a public school where only AP courses are offered in high school yet almost all of the diverse study body excels. That is because the years leading up to it students learn through rigorous material presented in such a manner as they learn how to engage, persist, self-direct, become more competent, capable people. They use these same strategies in high school. This is why common core, if considered a curriculum, won’t succeed or fail on its degree of rigor, rather on how well teachers and learners are able to scaffold students in learning it. Most schools provide little in the way in the way of offering teachers the freedom to use professional judgment for the scaffolding process.
You are restating the central theme of Jay Mathews, at The Post, and that is that “AP is better.” But it’s not. Read the research.
Like I said in my earlier post on AP, stopping corporate-style “reform” and the Common Core is easier said than done.
Parents, students and educators are going to have to remove the wool from over their eyes. And that means abandoning blind belief in the College Board and the products it peddles.
For many in the public education, the old Pogo saying has morphed into real life.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://abearsrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/pogo-we-have-met-the-enemy.jpg&imgrefurl=http://abearsrant.com/2013/04/we-have-met-the-enemy.html&h=274&w=468&sz=42&tbnid=z7qOcmA2sxaT6M:&tbnh=64&tbnw=109&zoom=1&usg=__se5_k167l31CIy4hNqU-JHrg7cQ=&docid=Z7neeRz7SuTu3M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iyGWUebBKY_h0wHI7YHoAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEIQ9QEwBg&dur=62
Denice, I don’t remove people from the site. You have to do it yourself. Not my job. My assistant in charge of that function is on vacation.
In the past, Diane Ravitch has written favorably about the Advanced Placement Program, which remains, regardless of Ms. Ravitch’s overall feelings about the College Board, a program developed and implemented by educators for educators. Twelve thousand professors and teachers from around the world collaborate annually to develop the courses and exams and train teachers. The College Board is honored to be the sponsor of such visionary and committed educators’ work.
Unfortunately, in her recent blog post about AP, Ms. Ravitch relies upon the hope that her readers will not look up any of the studies she summarizes, which each make significantly more favorable claims for AP than she choose to represent. I will provide full sentences from each research study, rather than the versions created by Ravitch through careful editing, so that readers can determine whether Ravitch is accurately representing researchers’ work to the public.
For example, in summarizing the landmark Geiser and Santelices study on AP, Ms. Ravitch never quotes a full sentence from the study, instead printing only a few words that give her reader the impression that Geiser and Santelices found negative outcomes for AP students in college:
“a full bonus point for AP…is invariably the worst predictor of college performance.”
But here is what the study actually says:
“Whereas AP coursework, by itself, contributes almost nothing to the prediction of college performance, AP examination scores are among the very best predictors.”
In other words, Ravitch only excerpts a finding that will make her reader think that AP does not predict college performance, whereas what the researchers criticized was a local practice of awarding bonus points for AP courses without regard to whether the students even passed the AP Exam.
Similarly, Ravitch refers to a Dartmouth study on AP Psychology students, without quoting a single word of it, when in fact Dartmouth’s own Psychology Department Chair, Dr. Jay Hull, has stated:
“First, note that this was not a scientific study. Nor did we intend it for public consumption. Indeed, we did not even intend these data to inform decision making at the college regarding AP credit in general.”
Ravitch references a National Research Council study, conveying the impression that it provided an unequivocal critique of AP courses and exams.
In fact, the study identified the calculus-based AP Physics courses and exams as the gold standard in American science education, and encouraged the College Board to redesign three other AP science courses to be more like AP Physics. The report Ms. Ravitch cites is more than a decade old, and most educators are aware that its concerns about three (out of a total of thirty-four) AP courses have been addressed through a widely lauded AP science redesign.
I encourage readers to examine each of the studies Ms. Ravitch cites closely, as each conveys a much more balanced and nuanced image of the AP Program than Ms. Ravitch’s highly edited versions of the findings.
In addition, I encourage readers to examine the body of research the College Board has conducted about AP student performance in college; these studies apply all of the statistical controls and models that Ms. Ravitch inaccurately says are not part of the internal analyses the College Board does to understand the outcomes of AP students in college.
http://aphighered.collegeboard.org/research-reports
What is undeniably good and true about the AP Program is the work of teachers, students, and college professors to create and attain a much higher standard for secondary schools than has typically been the case. We salute the practice of rigorous work worth doing in diverse classrooms around the world.
Those of us who teach AP, who work 12-months a year not only teaching but revamping syllabi, attending workshops, scoring papers, etc., etc., are only human when we feel personally attacked in an article/posting like this. But I think that reaction is wrong. I say this as a teacher who has taught AP English Lit for seven years and AP Language for two. I’ve also taught dual-enrollment for seven years and on-campus as an adjunct at that same university for two years. Currently, two-thirds of my schedule is AP, and I agree with Ravitch. She is not questioning the value of my courses; she is questioning the value of the “AP” moniker and AP testing.
My understanding of AP is that is was originated as differentiation for “advanced” students, hence the appellation “Advanced Placement.” But over the years for a myriad of reasons already cited, it has become standard issue. How can any class that every student is able to take or has to take be truly “advanced placement”? Do we all now live in Lake Woebegon, where all children are above average? Or is the College Board interested in sheer numbers? After all, all those students in AP need AP-trained teachers, trained, of course, by the College Board. And if even a fraction of all those students take the test, it’s still $89 each.
Others argue that AP courses are more academic than non-AP courses. However, if it takes an “AP” label to make a course meaningful, challenging, and standards-driven, something is seriously wrong. I have had students from my regular junior English class take the AP Language exam and score 4 out of 5. Students from every academic class should be able to come back and thank teachers for helping prepare them for college and/or life, not just AP teachers.
In my years teaching AP English, I have had students enrolled who legitimately belonged in an AP class. I have also had students enrolled who had been speaking English fewer than two years and others who could not write a coherent sentence, recognize a fragment, or make subjects and verbs agree. Under whose definition were these students “advanced?” They enrolled because mom and dad said they had to take an AP class, and AP English was “easier” than AP Chemistry. They were there because their friends were there. They were there because it looked “good on a college application.” Legitimately no more than 25% of any of my AP classes truly were “advanced.”
In the past, Diane Ravitch has written favorably about the Advanced Placement Program, which remains, regardless of Ms. Ravitch’s overall feelings about the College Board, a program developed and implemented by educators for educators. Twelve thousand professors and teachers from around the world collaborate annually to develop the courses and exams and train teachers. The College Board is honored to be the sponsor of such visionary and committed educators’ work.
Unfortunately, in her recent blog post about AP, Ms. Ravitch relies upon the hope that her readers will not look up any of the studies she summarizes, which each make significantly more favorable claims for AP than she chose to represent. I will provide full sentences from each research study, rather than the versions created by Ravitch through careful editing, so that readers can determine whether Ravitch is accurately representing researchers’ work to the public.
For example, in summarizing the landmark Geiser and Santelices study on AP, Ms. Ravitch never quotes a full sentence from the study, instead printing only a few words that gives her reader the impression that Geiser and Santelices found negative outcomes for AP students in college:
“a full bonus point for AP…is invariably the worst predictor of college performance.”
But here is what the study actually says:
“Whereas AP coursework, by itself, contributes almost nothing to the prediction of college performance, AP examination scores are among the very best predictors.”
In other words, Ravitch only excerpts a finding that will make her reader think that AP does not predict college performance, whereas what the researchers criticized was a local practice of awarding bonus points for AP courses without regard to whether the students even passed the AP Exam.
Similarly, Ravitch refers to a Dartmouth study on AP Psychology students, without quoting a single word of it, when in fact Dartmouth’s own Psychology Department Chair, Dr. Jay Hull, has stated:
“First, note that this was not a scientific study. Nor did we intend it for public consumption. Indeed, we did not even intend these data to inform decision making at the college regarding AP credit in general.”
Ravitch also references a National Research Council study, conveying the impression that it provided an unequivocal critique of AP courses and exams.
In fact, the study identified the calculus-based AP Physics courses and exams as the gold standard in American science education, and encouraged the College Board to redesign three other AP science courses to be more like AP Physics. The report Ms. Ravitch cites is more than a decade old, and most educators are aware that its concerns about three (out of a total of thirty-four) AP courses have been addressed through a widely lauded AP science redesign.
I encourage readers to examine each of the studies Ms. Ravitch cites closely, as each conveys a much more balanced and nuanced image of the AP Program than Ms. Ravitch’s highly edited versions of the findings.
In addition, I encourage readers to examine the body of research the College Board has conducted about AP student performance in college; these studies apply all of the statistical controls and models that Ms. Ravitch inaccurately says are not part of the internal analyses the College Board does to understand the outcomes of AP students in college.
http://aphighered.collegeboard.org/research-reports
What is undeniably good and true about the AP Program is the work of teachers, students, and college professors to create and attain a much higher standard for secondary schools than has typically been the case. We salute the practice of rigorous work worth doing in diverse classrooms around the world.
There is definitely too much AP hype. Recently I needed to remove my son from 3 heavy language based AP courses that he felt ‘persuaded’ to enroll in in advance of Junior year next fall. I asked his 10th grade counselor at the Exam High school he attends, how this could possible make sense for a child with a diagnosed language disability? She stated that peer pressure was the issue. I am not sure that the school didn’t play a role in it.
Nationally there is an inordinate amount of ‘school looking good at the expense of students learning’. Perhaps students should be limited to no more than 1 AP course during JR and Senior Year and then in a documented area of talent or interest. The stress is simply not worth it ( Wilson HS in VA is looking into whether AP pressures is part of a higher suicide trend) We should be nurturing and cherishing our young people- rather than constantly placing them in an environment where we expect them to compete or be ready for college early.. The overemphasis on AP is truly unhealthy.
Where do we start? Hyper vigilant parents who think all kids need AP credit to get to the top schools? The poor kids have a harder and harder time getting in anyway, because they all look alike on paper, and they simply compete against one another.
Guidance counselors who base their rep on acceptance rates?
A lack of alternatives for all HS kids growing even smaller with race to the top mentality? By the way, the over registration in AP courses was a race to the top long before Duncan coined the term.
Once upon a time AP courses stressed creativity and investigation and gave teachers more of a carte blanche to create invigorating, challenging, and interesting courses without a prescribed curriculum. I taught AP US for 20 years until I gave up mid 1990′s when the increased competitiveness, stress, and the prescriptive methodologies replaced the original intent and purposes.
Now the over registration in AP courses has hurt most of the kids who take them because colleges simply won’t give advanced credit as easily as they did when fewer kids took courses and received a 2 or 3… You could at least get advanced standing if not credit once upon a time for those scores. It has hurt kids with 4-5 range scores because they are not getting in the colleges they thought would accept them.
Furthermore, APs have hurt schools and the other students in them because the increase in AP courses has led to an opportunity cost… fewer alternatives like in lieu of electives or other courses they could take that would be more meaningful, interesting, experienced based, and even more worth while to get them ready for life.
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AP Classes has been doubled since last few years and yet it is increasing demand day by day. The purpose of these classes and tests is for students to earn college credit while in high school. AP courses allow students to explore the world from a variety of perspectives and to study subjects in depth and detail. Not only they will improve on their academic skills, but they will develop the study habits necessary for tackling demanding coursework.