I couldn’t watch it continuously. It was too painful. Joe Biden mumbled and misspoke; Trump lied nonstop. The CNN moderators could have, should have stepped in to correct blatant misstatements by both candidates. They didn’t. Watching Trump call Biden a criminal who should be in jail, watching Trump blame Nancy Pelosi for the January 6 insurrection, was more than I could bear to watch.
This was a good night for Trump, and a bad night for our democracy.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I tried warning you Diane. oh boy . Pelosi admitted on video she was to blame that’s not a lie and Mayor and Pelosi are responsible. Biden and his son and his brother are criminals not sure why that’s hard to bear . Trump didn’t lie Biden did and he couldn’t speak and looked horrible. Obama and Clinton are coming soon, you vote Biden need some help.
To quote the Boston Globe: “Trump lied nonstop.” But Biden performed horribly.
I lost track of the lies Trump spewed, “Ms. Right.” Whatever you’re drinking, be careful. You might end up in the ER.
Ms. “Right,” you are entirely wrong.
“Trump didn’t lie.” THAT is a flat-out lie.
Yeah, Biden did NOT perform well. But Trump DID lie and lie and lie, and lie.
Are you a Russian troll, or a MAGAt?
Either way, apparently, YOU support this:
https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/news/nation/2021/01/07/front-pages-capture-chaos-riots-us-capitol/6577931002/
The only thing Trump didn’t lie about was his name.
One of the key components to good character is accepting responsibility for your actions. “The election is rigged”, “It’s a witch hunt,” “Nancy Pelosi did it”… Donald Trump continued to show us what a small man he is . He lives in a gilded cage in South Florida, rides in a limo to the golf course or airport, and flies between private hangers in an ancient 757. He has no idea what is going on in the country. His towers in NYC are either being stripped of his name or are no more than abandoned malls. His business interests are bleeding billions while his cult pays over 100 million in legal bills. If he wins in November we’ll be reintroduced to a modern Feudalism that will be painful for most of us and will set democracy back for decades. As The Lincoln project says, “Everything Trump touches dies.” America will be no different.
This is dark. Political malpractice.
Biden should not have run again. That he has is utter hubris. We are in serious trouble.
The folks around Joe, who know that he works three-hour days because any more time is beyond his capacity, should have ganged up to keep him from running again. This is a nightmare. No way is he fit to be running for president again. I got sick of being shouted down here for saying so a few months ago. Well, here we are.
Everything I have read is the Biden actually works hard behind the scenes. I suspect that his handlers have been witnessing his decline for sometime. There was a piece in the Times this week that revealed he has three key advisers. Two as old or old than Biden. Vanity and hubris are fight or flight instincts that have often led to the demise of world leaders. I don’t see Biden stepping down.
Worse than I originally thought. The moderators must be scared of Trump, not calling him out for his lies, fearing the death threats that would follow, to them and their families.
Sounds like Traitor Trump got exactly what he wanted, an unfettered bully pulpit to repeat and spread his lies, just like the want to be Hitler that he clearly is.
It seems that Biden was also intimidated by the traitor.
Is there anyone that can stand up to Traitor Trump?
I think there is. The conservative leaders of the Lincoln Project. The traitor should debate them.
The moderators should have cut Trump off every time he dodged the question. They just let him spew his rhetoric and ignore the issue.
Yes. They were a joke. They did their country a profound disservice.
The media is hopeless on all fronts. A bold, young and popular Democrat needs to step up.
i kept screaming, “Fact check him!” The moderators kept going back to questions that Trump didn’t answer, but I wish they would have fact-checked.
Ideally, you want the other candidate to be capable of doing that.
This was one of the worst (and least remarked upon) of Biden’s failures in the debate tonight.
This was one of the worst (and least remarked upon) of Biden’s failures in the debate tonight. He was not “there” and quick enough to provide cogent, clear, fact-based takedowns/rebuttals of Trump’s continual lies. After weeks of prep for this debate, he wasn’t able to do that as well as even a mediocre high-school debate contestant could. He doesn’t have it any more, folks, and this fact above all shows that he doesn’t. I spent the entire debate saying, “WTF, Joe! You could have said x or y or z!”
We are in deep, deep trouble.
Oh, very true. I was screaming”fact check him to BOTH the moderators and Biden.
I have said that I could not care if a President was in a Coma it is his policy that counts. Is there any doubt that with the Biden record Donald Trump would be touting the best Economy ever. Under 4% unemployment for the longest period since before 1965. Real inflation adjusted median wages higher than in 2019. So higher than any Covid inflation. 15.6 million new Jobs. Yes in this terrible economy the TSA (as Krugman pointed out ) registered its busiest day of air travel ever. Terrible I tell you . . With all these immigrants taking American Jobs. The Native Born unemployment rate is at or near record lows. The Prime Age Worker Participation Rate is at 2 decade highs. A Stock Market that hits new highs weekly. For some reason the Biden team has coached him to not tout the economy. .When Ronald Reagan ran for his second term he declared “Morning in America” Unemployment was 7.8% ,inflation 4.3% . A far cry from the 3.9% unemployment and 3.3% inflation today. No matter how good an economy is and the economy is good! There are always people who are left behind. And we should do our best to help them. But Reagan won in a land slide. It has been political malpractice to hold Biden back from touting a good economy. Not just tonight but for 2 years. Then let the fact checkers check.
I would not be surprised to see a movement from outside to open the convention. It will depend on who is willing to step up. The summer is going to be fun. The fall, terrifying.
A President Sanders would have easily mopped up the floor with Trumpolini’s tinted blond scalp.
But the DNC and President Obama (charter-school lovin’ and promotor of the Common Core) worked hard behind the scenes to ensconce Biden as the nominee. One saw Klobuchar and Mayor Pete immediately drop out of the race while Elizabeth Warren refused to do so, siphoning votes away from Sanders.
Jim Clyburn was the pied piper as well, luring black voters into voting for a man whose history includes pushing segregation when he wasn’t attacking Anita Hill or doing the bidding of his donors. He was called the “Senator from Master Card” for good reason.
As payback to Clyburn, the DNC selected South Carolina, the most anti-union state in the nation which hasn’t voted for a Democratic presidential nominee in decades, to hold the first primary in the nation.
And now we may see a return of that Orange Monster because of Biden’s hubris.
The debate was a sad, cringeworthy nightmare to watch.
I’ve never felt so ashamed, embarrassed, sad and scared shit to be an American.
Mamie, me too.
Same
I am absolutely sick to my stomach.
I am so upset I’m having trouble thinking straight.
Well, that was a disaster.
And what rough beast slouches to Washington to be born again. We are in for a dark time.
What happens now? Even if Joe steps down? I like Kamala Harris, but I don’t think she can win.
Kamala was lost as a Candidate in 2020.She represents a possible implosion of the Democratic Party and an exodus of black voters. Gretchen Whitmer represents the best shot. Being woman she will effectively carry the moniker for women’ rights and she has successfully beat back MAGA in Michigan. She would certainly start out behind in the polls but her energy will throw Trump for loop.
So, in a democracy, people can vote to end democracy. Just wait and eventually that will happen, I guess.
if people choose Trump , then we, the United States deserve every horror that will happen.
I am so tired of what passes for journalism in this country. The WaPo and NYT have bent over backwards to accommodate the GOP and Trump-why?
A good question. The coverage has been shameful.
I’ve been wondering about that too. T’s supporters call them the “left wing press,” “fake news,” etc., but they do more to help get T elected than anyone except Fox.
Me, too, Birdchum. Sick to death of it.
The national media has never believed in Biden. Now they are just trying to figure out how they will stay in business with Trump.
Yes, Bob, sadly, in a democracy people CAN vote to end it.
Trump never stopped lying, but he did so with energy and conviction, and that’s what matters to Americans. They want Daddy in the office.
They don’t want grandpa. At least not the grandpa who is asleep at the Thanksgiving dinner table and drooling on himself. Yes, honor him. But don’t run him for president.
.
That’s pretty much what I was going to say, Bob.
Like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, he should’ve stepped down and made way for someone younger, early on.
Trump was a lying jacked up bully who answered no questions about policy but, instead, continually hammered a man who was trying to stick to the facts but having a hard time doing so in a coherent manner. Biden basically took a beating in front of the world.
I got the beat down months ago when I stated that Biden should retire due his obvious declining health. That he should be sitting on the beach reading a book, taking his grandchildren for ice cream and walking along the beach. There is nothing wrong with a man his age (and health decline……not dementia!) calling it a day and retiring. Thank you for your service….and here’s your gold watch!
I finally got disgusted and re-registered my voting status as Independent as a protest. To let the DNC know that I wasn’t happy with it’s decision to try and keep Biden on for 4 more years. I was worried about his lack of vigor the last time and was “instructed” it was because he has to think more about what to say so that he doesn’t stutter. Sorry, that excuse has now been debunked!
I’m scared s__tless that we will get another 4 years of trump’s goons breaking apart the country.
Same.
”I was worried about his lack of vigor the last time and was “instructed” it was because he has to think more about what to say so that he doesn’t stutter. Sorry, that excuse has now been debunked!”
Sorry if you felt instructed, but the stuttering is a fact and it’s impressive that he’s been able to overcome it for decades while holding a position of power.
It was on display last night, as well. But this time his age was showing, which made his controlling it even harder..
gitapik….I know about the stuttering and I know that in order to overcome it, one needs to slow down speech. I thought Biden was too old last time and that he was starting to physically decline (early stages of a Parkinson’s type syndrome?). 4 years in a highly contentious position of authority is really not good for anyone. The Presidency is NOT for someone with a lack of stamina or physical or mental health issues (no…he doesn’t have dementia!).
I agree about with you about where he is, now, Lisa (my name is Bob, btw). I thought he was in much better shape in 2020 and think that, in many respects, he and his administration have done a great job through his tenure.
Flerp tried to tell people here. No one would listen.
Yup. Waiting for NYC parent to attack me for the comment I made that Bernie Sanders would have easily beaten Trump in a debate.
Eleanor,
“I haven’t write anything about you so try to keep my name out of your mouth.”
(h/t flerp!)
I agree with you to the point that Pepto Bismol cannot quell the fire in my intestines .
All the debating points I was taught as a college freshman were completely obliterated , as all the rhetorical ways to make a point that sticks .
I need to go find another stomach emollient to quiet the intensifying storm that is wrecking heavily with my mind and soul .
A sad day for our country .
Marc Rogers
One of the worst in my memory. I am so fearful for our country.
I think it was worse than Quail. Turns out Biden’s no Kennedy either.
Trump spewed his lies non-stop but he did it very forcefully which his fans will eat up. Biden was practically whispering at times, he was not speaking as forcefully as the lying liar. Very disappointing performance by Biden, sad to say. I don’t think it was a total debacle but it was damn near close to one and it may cause many people to not vote.
The CNN hosts said that their phones were blowing up with texts from democratic politicians around the country saying that this was an utter disaster. Total fail.
I read a piece recently about a candidate who could easily beat Trump, maybe the only Democrat who could, if Biden steps aside and let her be nominated at the Democratic Convention.
I’m talking about Michelle Obama. But I do not think she’d consider the position, unless it was Biden who asked her to do it, for the country.
But Biden’s hubris may be in the way, stopping him from doing the right thing. Just like with Hillary in 2016.
That’s a terrible notion. Being married to a politician doesn’t make one a good candidate. Give me Gretchen Whitmer, governor of Michigan as a second to Kamala Harris. Let women run stuff for a change. For sure it wouldn’t be worse.
Agreed
What possible qualification does Michelle Obama have to be president?
where do we go from here?
I guess we watch the polling over the next few days is crucial.Joe’s not stepping aside … he was great at the post debate “watch party,” …
Odd, why was he great at the watch party and stumble so much during the debate?
Baffling …
I suppose that the Democratic Convention could choose any other candidate. Pete Buttigieg. Raphael Warnock could win this thing.
Gavin Newsom was great on MSNBC, fighting, said “double down,” unify the party, do more, worry less …
Almost everyone has made up their mind, work harder, let’s see how the polling goes …
Biden voters simply have to work harder … we don’t know what voters think.
Remember Obama bombed the first debate…
Warnick has to stay in the Senate right now. No Dems in the wings in GA who could beat a Republican. We have to defend all fronts.
Good point.
I can see the Trump campaign edit of Biden’s comments now.
I hate to say this, but the election might be over.
Someone needs to tell the emperor that he is walking around naked.
Time to step down.
He’s a good guy. I like him. His has been a great presidency. Now it is time for him to step aside and for the Democratic Convention to choose another candidate.
Pelosi advised Biden not to debate, but his team disagreed.
!!!!!
Trump should have been an easy opponent. Again, everything Trump said was predictable. It was the same parade of lies that one hears from him every time he is onstage. Biden should have been able to commit to memory a pithy, memorable, fact-based rejoinder to every one of these and knocked them down like ducks at a range. He didn’t, even though he has been prepping for weeks. He didn’t because he couldn’t.OF COURSE, EVEN GIVEN THIS, BIDEN IS THE FAR, FAR, FAR BETTER CHOICE. Trump is a career con man and criminal, a rapist, a seditionist, a traitor, an utter fool, a one-man environmental disaster, a racist, a sexist, and a dangerous idiot. If he is president again, may all the gods help us.
❝Something snapped in you when you lost the last time.❞
Best line of the night
That was a good one, but I also loved it when Biden took tRump up on the challenge to play golf together –only if they both walk and carry their own bags. That’s because tRump is so well known for cheating at golf, which he does by being the only player with a fast golf cart, so that he can ride ahead, retrieve all the balls he shot in the rough and take shots off his score that he didn’t earn. (It was a cleaver way to avoid stipulating that they don’t play at a tRump golf course, since that’s where he’s assured of having the fastest cart and loyal caddies that play along with his lies.)
something snapped in democrats when Hillary lost in 2016.
just think, that was the drugged up JAmericans know that the democrat powers that be have been LYING about Joe Biden’s health!!
Jill Biden is the worst wife ever!
For once I agree with you. That the folks around Biden have been hiding the extent of his infirmity is shocking and shameful, akin to treason. Those who are around him should be held to account. It should not have come to this pass.
That said, I will STILL take the group presidency (clearly, others are doing a lot of the lifting) of Biden over one presided over by that seditious, traitorous, career criminal and con man, pathological liar, malignant pathological narcissist, rapist, pretend Christian, Fascist, racist, sexist dirtbag lowlife scum, IQ 45, Moscow’s Asset Governing America (MAGA).
Oh pity’s sake, Bob, the state of Biden’s health has hardly been hidden! Millions have been screaming about it for four years, but people like you and our hostess have been denying it, calling it a right wing hoax.
Jacqui, YOU are the WORST commenter ever.
Are YOU a Russian troll, or a MAGAt?
Clearly, THIS is what YOU support:
https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/news/nation/2021/01/07/front-pages-capture-chaos-riots-us-capitol/6577931002/
I had similar feelings as Diane and many others here. What was evident to me though was the probability that tRump was coached to just keep spewing the same lies that we’ve heard from him many, many times before. instead of resorting to the stream of consciousness gobbledy-gook he’s been coming out with lately in interviews and at rallies. So the guy who sees himself as an actor effectively had well worn scripts to follow.
I thought CNN was going to fact-check but, to my surprise, they didn’t, and I’m guessing Biden was really thrown by that, too. With a lifetime as a successdul fraud behind him and his scripts, tRump is much better at repeatedly telling lies than telling the truth, so I wouldn’t say Biden lost of his own accord. I think CNN’s lack of fact checking effectively gave the win to tRump. I still have hope though, now that Biden knows exactly what he can expect at the next debate, so please try to keep the faith!
It was agreed in advance that the moderators would not fact check. Biden on his own could not stand up to the fire hose of lies Trump spewed. But he should not have tried to. Biden ought to have just dismissed the lies by declaring them as such, then turned to the camera and parried by a recitation of facts.
Was Biden not prepped for such a response, or was he not capable of responding appropriately in the moment?
We’re in a real pickle here.
Biden on his own could not stand up to the fire hose of lies Trump spewed.
After weeks of coaching. That is the most telling tell of Biden’s cognitive decline. He could not effectively counter the stuff everyone knew was coming DESPITE WEEKS OF COACHING. He could not think on his feet. This is quite serious. It was a disaster.
What I read was that CNN was not going to have a 1 to 2 minute time delay in the broadcast for fact checking because Tapper & Bash were familiar with the candidates and had experience moderating debates, so they could do that in real time. Only they did not do it.
I think CNN did a very severe disservice to our country by just letting notorious liar tRump skate by with lie after lie after lie. And while Biden might not have been at his best (it was reported that he has a cold), I think it’s a mistake for him to be the one who is taking all the heat for that.
Tapper and Bash did a poor job of moderating. Bash did insist a couple of times that Trump had not answered the question posed. I never expected much from Tapper.
Bummed. Resurrects Trump.
The Great Depression is what I’m feeling.
Remember this post in Feb?
Jonathan V. Last: How Biden Can Defuse the Age Issue: Embrace It!
I said-“I don’t think all the spin the world is going to make voters see Biden’s age as an asset. Wouldn’t it be better for Biden to graciously step aside and pass the baton to someone like Gavin Newsom? I’m not a huge Newsom fan, but he’s a skilled politician who loves to debate.”
The show Breaking Points did a lot of stories about the fact that left leaning establishment corporate media outlets like the Washington Post and MSNBC were in denial regarding Biden’s age. Tonight we saw the ugly truth.
You were right. I was right. Flerp was right. Biden’s hubris is now a potential disaster for the United States of epic proportions.
Months ago I was saying Biden should step aside. I didn’t even think the point was necessarily whether he actually was competent to handle another term; the issue was public perception. A substantial portion of the population had a negative view of his capabilities, & it appeared they weren’t going to be convinced otherwise. (They haven’t.) At a certain point I resigned myself to the likelihood that the Dem powers were going with him no matter what. Now, for the first time I’ve seen, people in the Democrat establishment are saying, “Wait a minute…”
The frustrating thing is, there would be no dishonor to Biden in stepping down. He’d go out a hero: he pulled the country out of the T disaster, led restoration from Covid, passed a legacy-defining infrastructure bill. He’s had a long distinguished career. He’d be further commended for putting the needs of the country above personal ambition. There’s really no downside.
He pointed out that he’d been planning not to run, but when he saw T picking up momentum, he felt it was his responsibility to run “for the good of the country.” With all respect to his substantial capabilities & accomplishments, he’s not the only Dem who could handle the job. “I alone can fix it,” is the other guy’s line, & it’s not a good look for Biden. There have been polls (don’t have cite, but it’s not hard to believe) where R’s & independents who detest T have said they’d vote for any Dem over T, but if they have to hold their nose & vote for him they will, because for whatever reasons they can’t bring themselves to vote for Biden. Gavin Newsom cautions against switching horses mid-race, but this one’s win-or-lose-all. The only finish is to win. There’s no 2nd place. If the option is not reaching the destination at all, maybe it’s time to look over those horses.
I posted about his age and his dismal approval ratings and was absolutely SKEWERED here for my trouble. One commenter, in particular, filled pages and pages and pages of vituperation against me and Flerp for saying the freaking obvious. But she wasn’t alone.
Candidacies have been ended over far mor trivial issues than this, connected only to public perception, not a candidate’s actual competence or positions.
Examples:
Marco Rubio’s campaign ended because he drank too much water at a debate.
Howard Dean’s campaign ended because he made a funny sounding yell of enthusiasm at the end of a speech.
There were loads of legitimate reasons neither should have been president, but those were the issues that derailed them. In this case, the negative perception is related to capability, and regardless of arguments & reassurance, the criticism at least has a point.
Dukakis and the Snoopy in the Tank pic
Lenny: Either Rubio nor Dean had a record to run on. Neither had been President. Biden has been a great President. He has accomplished big things. He can do more with Democratic control of the House and Senate.
We know what Trump wants; all bad.
Dukakis looked like every other soldier in a tank. It was middle school level stuff — the kool kids in the media kept telling the public that Dukakis looked idiotic like Snoopy (they left the other soldier out of the close up) and people were primed to see it as Dukakis looking foolishly like Snoopy. Dukakis’ “abject failure” in getting into a tank during a campaign event to discuss military spending was considered newsworthy enough to get major play in every article about Dukakis for the rest of the campaign, lest the public forget that this huge failure “defined” Dukakis. (Along with Willie Horton, et al).
I did a very unscientific test, showing the Dukakis in tank video footage to some younger folks who didn’t know who Dukakis was (perhaps vaguely) and they just saw a soldier in tank gear. It looked exactly like the photo of a current young soldier I know in a tank wearing the same helmet that his parent showed me. I suspect I would have had a different reaction if I had primed the young people first about how stupid this politician looked in a tank – just like Snoopy – and then showed them the close up of only Dukakis. If you can influence the presentation of a snippet of reality and influence the narrative about the reality, you can usually get the reaction you want from at least some of the people not paying much attention.
Some people (not here) blamed Dukakis because he supposedly “allowed” other people to define him, but that assumes that it’s easy to fight off the negative perception when the so-called liberal media is in cohoots. It isn’t. Anyone who supports public schools should know that. Diane Ravitch has been fighting the good fight here for a long time, and the so-called liberal media still portrays public schools negatively and invokes “high performing charters” as an excellent way to “save” disadvantaged kids.
If I blamed teachers and public school supporters like Diane for failing to get the public – and progressive politicians – to stop believing the false narrative that charter schools save poor children from their failing public schools, I wouldn’t even be at this blog.
Diane is fighting against the reporters at the NYT who treat her disrespectfully while amplifying and legitimizing pro-charter propaganda. Dukakis was up against the same type of lousy and lazy reporting by journalists who liked writing stories about how stupid Dukakis looked and demeaning him. Or stories about how every voter who mattered was certain Dukakis’ policies led to rapist murderers. Some folks said what matters is that the public believes it, and that means Dukakis is to blame and if he had stepped down immediately for the good of the country, a different Democrat would have won in 1988.
I worked in media in 1988 and 1992 and there was a stark difference in how reporters covered Clinton and Dukakis. Clinton made plenty of mistakes and had flaws, but they were treated in the media the way Republican flaws and mistakes were treated – newsworthy for a day or two then forgotten. In fact, there is a direct correlation between Democrat victories and whether that Democrat candidate’s missteps and errors were treated like Republicans’ missteps and errors or whether the media amplified them in a daily drumbeat of stories amplifying the narrative that so that the Democrat was a hugely problematic politician who had no business running for president (while the far more problematic Republican could make similar missteps and errors that were soon forgotten).
NYCPSP,
You are very sharp in understanding the framing of a narrative. That’s what decides elections. Maybe Democrats could frame 2024 as “Old Man Biden Kicks Liar Trump’s Butt.”
Best suggestion I’ve heard yet, Diane. And in exactly those words. That’s what I mean about taking off the gloves. Now is not the time for politeness.
Seriously, Biden should go in front of a microphone tomorrow and say precisely those words. “Well, Donald. Here we are. Look out. This old man is going to whip your ample butt.”
If Biden did that, people would rally around him. He would capture the attention of the young and of a lot of independents. He would win this election. It would be definitive.
Does he have the guts to do that?
(BTW, that’s why Gore did not have a commanding lead over Shrub; he namby pambied EVERYTHING, with his long-winded, vague, 50,000-ft-level nonanswers to offend no one. He was not compelling. He sounded like a freaking politician doll–the sort that, if you pull the string–it spits out platitudes.)
It was a huge mistake. He looked idiotic. His tiny little round face in that huge tank. First I saw that pic I though, OMG, his handlers are braindead. AND no one taught him to stop freaking waving his hands IN FRONT OF HIS OWN FACE when he talked. Dukakis was one of the brightest and huge-hearted men ever to run for this office (Paul Tsongas was another). It was a great pity that fools ran his campaign.
I adored Dukakis. Still do. A really decent human, dedicated to good governance, meticulous, informed, bright, hard-working, careful. Everything that Trump is not. If Adlai Stevenson and Dwight Eisenhower and Jimmy Carter had a Greek baby together. LOL. He would have been an outstanding president.
But these events are defining. George Senior and the grocery store automated checkout. Gerald Ford’s tripping coming down the steps of the plane and hitting people with golf balls. Gary Hart and the bogus Bimini yacht story.
I am getting more than a little amusement from the fact that you think that the reaction to the Dukakis in the tank photo was all due to media priming. That’s rich. It was one of the dumbest media stunts in the history of politics.
It couldn’t have been more ill-conceived if they had handed him a pea shooter and filmed him, alone, using that to take on a Roman legion.
Well said. You’ve covered all the vital points.
The tragedy for America is that once upon a time draft-dodging Trump when making that disgusting remark about McCain would have been sunk by the backlash for Vietnam veterans, other pilots shot down over North Vietnam and the families of those who did not come back. Just that one mistake should have done it.
I don’t understand how anyone who’s ever served in the military could support T.
Not excusing Trump nor those miserable fantasists who play at ‘militia’ who’ve never been on the business of of a conflict.
I guess when you go deep amongst those who have served in the military and faced combat (note those last two words) who support Trump you’ll find a whole mix of their reasons and justifications. It’s one group I would not try and second-guess as to why.
Michael Herr’s classic ‘Dispatches’ opened me up to a different world. and those who carry it back.
Biden did not have to sing a Puccini aria tonight, but he did miss a few opportunities to refute Trump’s lies.
Still, being president does not mean he must give answers that take two minutes to formulate on every issue. Being president takes far more than what one narrow and mostly insignificant measure like a sterile presidential “debate” with a cold and a stutter against a lying felon requires.
I’m not hedging his abilities on such a measure. I’m betting on his experience, integrity, affinity for the truth, his sense of respect and decency, and his ability to surround himself with the best people for the jobs that governance requires. Only the short-sided judge him on tonight.
This audience, of all people, knows that we don’t assess success on one criterion. As president, Biden is thoughtful and considers all the details and evidence. Debates require ultrafast thinking and sometimes reckless pivoting. That’s not something I want in a president anyway. Obama was a great speaker, but Biden has been a far better president even in just his first term than his former boss was in two.
Thanks LG, you give me a glimmer of hope that Biden may survive this first debacle/debate. He shouldn’t be judged by this one debate but millions of folks out there will judge him on the first debate. There’s still time, one can hope that he will do much better for the 2nd debate in a few months, that’s the one that really counts (for the general public).
Trump just continues to spew lies, he’s a Mount Etna of lies, that’s what we really should be talking about.
He knew what was coming. He has been prepping for weeks. And he could not pull off what even a poor-to-mediocre high-school debater can do wish half her mind on a billion other matters. This was perhaps the worst performance I have ever seen from a politician in a debate, except, of course, for the predictable spewing sewer of lies that comes from Trump any time he is onstage. Seriously. I used to teach high-school debate. The worst of my students could have outperformed the Biden we say tonight. It was shocking. Revealing. Deeply, deeply troubling.
People age at different rates. Biden needs to step aside.
Time for someone cutting, hardnosed, not afraid to use the low blow, but can also be smooth to the ordinary public.
Anyone you know of who is a mix of LBJ, RFK and Bill Clinton (but a one person sort when it comes to personal relationships)?
Raphael Warnock
In understand he was graded ‘F’ by the NRA which should be quite the endorsement for ordinary folk.
As clear an alternative to Trump as one could find.
It speaks volumes about Trump and the pack about him that folk can look back to Bush jnr and Nixon with near nostalgia and say ‘Yes. But don’t forget, he did….’ and then make a positive statement.
But Bob, you are acting as if Trump was actually debating. He was not debating. He was stating lies on all points—telling stories that were the complete opposite of reality. He was dodging questions to go back to his talking points with no merit and—in many cases—no connection to the questions.
There was no debate here. There was no breaking down of facts on his side because his answers were devoid of truth and analysis.
This was not a debate. It was a commercial for Trump, and in order to counter the lies and attacks by Trump, Biden resorted to messaging on his achievements.
This “debate” was a complete waste of time.
By the way, Bash and Tapper kept permitting multiple rebuttals. My understanding was that there was a two-minute answer, a one-minute rebuttal of the opponent’s answer, and then only a one-minute counter-rebuttal for the other side. There were instances where the one-minute rebuttals and counter-rebuttals went beyond the allotted amount as stated in the rules. They also permitted Trump to go off topic and ignore questions on three occasions, and permitted the same for Biden on one. Trump always finished his answers on time or before time because they were prepared talking points and many not even pertinent to the question. Biden was citing his policy and Trump was spewing lies.
The manner of speaking should not matter in the grand scheme of things—the substance and honesty of the points made should. Unfortunately, we are playing into the hands of Trump and his minions when we elevate a strongman. I really expected this community to be better than this, but I have to say I am gobsmacked that people are ready to throw Biden under the bus. As I mentioned in another comment, we know better than most that one measure does not tell the whole story.
You are right, LG. And thank you for writing this. I think we’re all feeling a bit dismayed at the moment.
One huge problem seems to be that most people are trying and want to play by the rules. Trump does not. At all. And it confuses us. Takes us by surprise, even though we shouldn’t be surprised. Puts us all off balance in the moment and then the moment is gone.
It’s a tactic. An effective one, at that.
Not once did I suggest that Trump was debating.
Bob, you may not have come right out and said Trump was debating, but you did mention that you had students who could do a better job in this debate than Biden did. That would suggest that there was an actual debate on the part of both parties.
Trump did not address the questions. He was participating in what was supposed to be a debate, but he didn’t debate except occasionally and briefly.
Correct. I don’t see how Biden could have debated the rapid fire Gish Gallop nonsense coming from Trump’s mouth non-stop. No human could address every single lie. It was like he had a bump stock on his mouth.
Regrettably since we live in the mighty media age integrity of office does not always help, particularly when dealing with a monster that the Republican Party has become.
This has been a factor in US politics since the Kennedy – Nixon debate of 1960. Which apparently for radio audiences Nixon won.
Track back to WWII, in Britain. Churchill as a war leader made some dreadful mistakes but as Edward R Murrow American correspondent said “He mobilized the English language and sent it into battle.”
Biden ought to announce at a press conference that he will not be the Democratic candidate. He should take responsibility for his poor debate performance and say the stakes are too high to continue pursuing office when there are other capable Democrats. He could say that the Presidency is weighty, especially at this moment in history, and deserves someone physically and mentally agile. He should say that he is putting ego aside for the greater good of the nation and will be happy to endorse and support whoever the new nominee is.
I’m sick that he won’t do so.
same
I used to teach high-school debate. The worst of my students could have outperformed Biden tonight. HE HAS BEEN PREPPING FOR THIS FOR WEEKS. He knew what was coming. He should have been able to commit to memory a short, memorable, devastating, fact-based quip in response to every utterly predictable statement that Trump made. But he couldn’t. He could not remember and deliver cogent, clear, forceful rebuttals. That, not his mumbling and rambling, is the surest sign of his severe cognitive decline. He should step aside. Today.
He should call a press conference, announce that he will finish his term but is stepping aside, and enjoin the Democratic National Convention to choose the candidate to replace him. Don’t tell me it’s too late. It has happened numerous times in the past that the Convention chose the candidate in a vote of the delegates.
I regretfully agree. There is far too much at stake.
If he goes now he might win a sympathy vote for the Democrats on the basis that ‘Well at least they know when they’ve had someone who couldn’t carry the full weight of the responsibility, and did something about it,’ Which would turn that question back on the Republicans
“Which would turn that question back on the Republicans.”
Extremely well observed!
Thanks. It might also start some opportunistic in-fighting in the Republican Party.
I coached debate also, and agree with you. My all-freshman team would have done a better job than EITHER of these 2 candidates. Neither covered themselves with glory, but the media will only focus on Biden and not on Trump, who lied about everything but his name.
Wow, who could possibly have seen that coming?
If I were a Democrat, I’d be spitting nails about how the DNC maneuvered to foist this decaying husk on us. But fortunately, I’m not.
BTW, if he can’t win a debate against a rabid Cheeto, how in the world do you think Biden is running this country and dealing with the likes of Putin or Xi? Maybe it’s time to see through the farce that is our “democracy”? Maybe it’s finally time to admit the emperor has no clothes.
Still time to say a plague on both your houses and rally behind a third party.
So now I am supposed to be spitting nails about how Bernie Sanders and AOC maneuvered to foist Biden on us. Bernie and AOC’s early endorsement did a lot to discourage other progressives to run.
Of course, Bernie and AOC did so because they liked how Biden was governing. Not how he debated.
But I can’t help seeing the irony of those who claimed that the far superior debating skills of “she who cannot be named” should be irrelevant.
As an independent, I’ve voted for 3rd party presidential candidates myself before, especially when I’d lost faith in the incumbent running for re-election. However, to the best of my knowledge, 3rd party candidates have never ever gotten enough votes to even come close to being elected president in this two-party country (at least in the modern era). So, I’ve come to realize that it’s not only a wasted vote but also a vote that could cause a loss for the person from the two major parties who is the better candidate for our country. Therefore, I will never do that again and I strongly advise against it –especially in the coming election, where the choice is a dicator-wannabe or our democracy.
To all of you, my friends in the USA you have my greatest sympathy.
One message and sliver of advice. It is time for the Democrats to mobilise every hardnosed rawboned speaker they can find and go onto the attack, every day.
(And to face up to the fact that it is time to suggest to President Biden it is time to step aside).
This is a war for the soul of the USA.
Thank you. Yes, it is.
For 60+ years I’ve had a fondness and a level of support for the USA even with its flaws and dirty linen (which nation doesn’t have those???).
I’ve been hurting since Trump crawled out of the mire and got the nomination, what it must be like for folk such as yourselves I can only imagine.
Trump’s repeat falsehoods included his assertions that some Democratic-led states allow babies to be executed after birth, that every legal scholar and everybody in general wanted Roe v. Wade overturned, that there were no terror attacks during his presidency, that Iran didn’t fund terror groups during his presidency, that the US has provided more aid to Ukraine than Europe has, that Biden for years referred to Black people as “super predators,” that Biden is planning to quadruple people’s taxes, that then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi turned down 10,000 National Guard troops for the US Capitol on January 6, 2021, that Americans don’t pay the cost of his tariffs on China and other countries, that Europe accepts no American cars, that he is the president who got the Veterans Choice program through Congress, and that fraud marred the results of the 2020 election.
Yes, Joe Biden did NOT perform well. That’s an understatement.
BUT, to utterly disregard what he’s done for the last three-and-a-half years as president and to just sweep that aside and call for him to retire himself – or have others do it for him – is more than merely myopic.
On the debate performances, here’s Susan Glasser at the New Yorker:
“Biden, eighty-one years old and asking to be returned to office until age eighty-six, looked and sounded old. Too old. His voice was muffled. He lost his train of thought. He raced through answers. When Trump talked, the split screen showed Biden staring, wide-eyed and open-mouthed, in a way that made him look even older…Trump was also rambling and incoherent, but at a much louder decibel level. He looked and sounded healthier; Biden was literally painful to watch.”
Biden WAS trying – I think – to show his incredulity at Trump’s gross lies. On that split screen, you could see it. But he also did look baffled.
“Trump was no champion, either. For much of the debate, he reiterated familiar lines, often out of context or wildly untrue, from his rallies and social-media feed. CNN’s moderators, having announced in advance that they would not be doing any fact checking, stuck to their plan, and the Trumpian B.S. flowed freely: The Greatest Economy Ever! Biden’s Is the Worst Administration Ever! Russia, Russia, Russia! Some of Trump’s lies were flagrant and damaging; others were merely bizarre.”
The lies were absolutely nonstop. And yes, CNN’s moderators did the American public a great disservice but not doing even a whiff of fact-checking.
David Frum, former speech writer for George W. Bush (also a terrible president*), wrote this in The Atlantic about the debate and what’s coming:
“We live in a political culture in which some of us think the supreme issue of our time was an attempted violent overthrow of the Constitution, while other Americans think it was Hunter Biden’s laptop…Ferocious controversy will probably now erupt over Biden’s leadership of the Democratic Party. We’ll hear all kinds of plans to swap him out somehow. Maybe those plans will be workable, but probably not. Through the uproar, it will be important to keep in mind that this election is not about Biden. It’s about you and your commitments and your values. Biden is just the instrument. Like any instrument, he’s imperfect. But better an imperfect instrument than a would-be autocrat who demands a cult of personality.”
Let’s repeat.
“this election is not about Biden. It’s about you and your commitments and your values.”
I’ve noted this before, here and elsewhere. There is only one major political party in the U.S. dedicated to prosperity for all – and not tax cuts for corporations and the rich. There is only one major political party in the U.S. committed to the core values of democracy embedded in the Constitution. There is also another “party” that is now nothing more than a criminal enterprise.
More Frum:
“This most recent debate has taught the danger of spectatorship. The job of saving democracy from Trump will be done not by an old man on a gaudy stage, but by those who care that their democracy be saved. Biden’s evident frailties have aggravated that job and made it more difficult, but they have also clarified whose job it was. Not his. Yours.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/06/debate-trump-platform-january-6/678818/
As Ben Franklin uttered after the Constitutional Convention when asked what kind of government the convention delegates had created:
“A republic, if you can keep it.”
THAT is the task.
https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/news/nation/2021/01/07/front-pages-capture-chaos-riots-us-capitol/6577931002/
Electing Biden isn’t about electing Biden.
Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Genius.
Like you said, Bob, the voters in a democracy can vote to end democracy. It’s clear – even with the Biden performance – that there is only one PARTY committed to the Constitution.
Lots of Americans will fly the US flag this July 4th, but a significant proportion of those are not patriots who believe in the core values and principles of a democratic republic.
Yeah, perception often is “reality.”
And this is the reality:
https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/news/nation/2021/01/07/front-pages-capture-chaos-riots-us-capitol/6577931002/
Biden didn’t make the task easier…it remains the task nonetheless.
By the way, looks like Joe Scarborough has joined the scaremongers.
The poster Democracy IS pretty genius & you’ve intimated that yourself before, Bob, so I’m not sure what you meant by the above.
Though Biden was disappointing at times in the debate, he had some better moments, too, and I’m not all in for dumping him right now. I don’t think Biden is as bad off cognitively as you seem to think (or nearly as much as tRump so clearly is when he’s not following his scripts of lies.) So which Democrat(s) would you replace Biden with –who’d have a decent shot at beating tRump?
The poster Democracy is one of the brightest people I’ve encountered.
this election is about one issue: Trump or not Trump. Of course Biden would be better, but considering his liabilities in terms of public perception, do we really want to bet our democracy on it? He’s not the only Democrat who could do a competent job, & there are others who’d be more likely to beat T, not handicapped with that liability.
agreed
After last night’s performance, it is abundantly clear, that if Biden remains the candidate, there is an excellent chance that Trump will be president again.
This is too great a risk to take. The precautionary principle applies. Biden needs to step aside.
Or, we can wait and see ourselves into a Trump victory. A horror. For our country. For the world.
It will be a horror.
And it’s up to voters to decide if they want that horror.
Yeah, in a perfect world Biden would have had a good night.
In a more perfect world maybe Biden WOULD have decided not to run again…but there’s that three-and-a-half year record…a record that Gavin Newsom said last night that he stands behind.
In a more perfect world, the mainstream media would do a FAR better job of “balancing” coverage instead of serving as a regurgitation of right-wing lies, which often include Russian propaganda, and in that world, more people would read.
In a more perfect world, public schools would be dedicated to citizenship education. The development and nurturance of, and commitment to, democratic citizenship would be the chief purpose of schooling, and not censorship and book banning and the indoctrination of students into rigid religious ideology.
In our current world, we are where we are.
Voters will decide where we go.
And yeah, the job just got harder.
democracy,
Thanks again for some reality.
I would have been first in line demanding Biden step down if his actual job performance had been a problem.
It’s sad to me that a guy who has by every measure put together a presidential administration whose performance over 4 years has far exceeded most modern day presidents is a “failure” because he had one horrible debate performance.
Biden wasn’t endorsed for re-election by AOC and Bernie Sanders because Bernie and AOC are supposed not as thoughtful or smart as the “I told you so” folks here on this blog.
Biden was endorsed for re-election by Bernie and AOC because of his JOB PERFORMANCE, not his debating skills. Biden is a very old guy who actually does a very good job running the country, not a very good job debating.
It’s like an old teacher whose students are excelling and loving school and thriving, but when the teacher appears before a group of parents one night they look old and tired so the parent demands their child be changed to be in the young teacher’s class.
But I’m one of those apparently rare people who would rather my kid be taught by an old and even forgetful teacher who performs well in the classroom than a young teacher who looks good talking to parents. Some other parents might say “but that teacher just didn’t look good up there at parents’ night” and start a campaign to force retirement and replace her because they wanted their kid with a young teacher DESPITE the fact that their kid was thriving. Because the old teacher “looked” really old and tired and forgetful. Imagine a know it all parent lecturing another parent — You should join us in getting rid of the teacher because they LOOKED really old and forgetful, even if your kid is thriving.
I get that the reality is that the “very important” people who matter now tell me Biden should step down, but I also know but when that replacement nominee’s “job performance” is attacked — as Newsome’s will be — suddenly “looking good at a debate” will have a lot less value. In fact, it will have zero value.
The folks here who are crowing “I told you so” to Bernie Sanders and AOC for being stupid enough not to listen to them should have their moment. They believe they were better judges of whether Biden should have been the nominee than Bernie and AOC. They think debate performance is more important than job performance.
What’s sad is that as soon as Biden is replaced with a Democrat who wipes the floor with Trump at a debate, the media will change the narrative to “do you want a guy who is smooth in debates and looks younger than Trump when that guy is a failure as Governor?”
Biden may look old and demented, but he has never governed as if he is old and demented. Trump did. And as soon as Biden is replaced, “job performance” is more important than “debate performance” will be the only narrative.
But that narrative – which favors Biden so much – won’t be heard until Biden steps down and it can be used to destroy Biden’s replacement, the younger guy who can debate well and make a good speech but whose presidency is sure to be a failure- since they can’t run a country. And voters won’t be talking about how well the nominee debated, they will be talking about how they have no experience, or that their experience as Governor proves their job performance will be terrible.
But folks here said Bernie and AOC were stupid not to listen to their superior voices and endorse Biden’s re-election when they knew better. They will be crowing “I told you so to Bernie and AOC and the rest of us because they know debating is more important than job performance. Until a good debater is a Democrat and they are repeating right wing talking points about the Dem nominee being “too smooth” of a talker.
Heather Cox Richardson is brilliant today. But the folks here will still say they told her so, just like they told Bernie and AOC.
I did not see or hear the debate. On my way home from Nashville with a daughter who had just finished a novel, I instead listened to 30-40 miles of her complete dismemberment of the authors feeble attempt at giving her characters depth.
Long before this, however, I wondered what the Democrats were going to do about their pool of upcoming leaders. The Republicans have for the time since Clinton been remarkably successful in creating negativity surrounding any Democrats who might have the appeal to rise nationally. Aided and abetted by he “liberal” media, they have smeared candidate after candidate with one thing or another until Democrats appear to have only local popularity.
So it came to be that the old timer, Biden, was the only possible challenge for a then President Trump. His election by 7 million votes suggested that Biden was the correct choice. But there is the age thing.
I think the possibility exists that we may see the first surprise candidate emerge from the Democratic Party convention since William Jennings Bryan wowed the 1896 crowd with the cross of gold speech. Some relative unknown would give Republicans no time for their propaganda machine to tear the candidate apart.
I wonder if it could happen. Yesterday marked the 230th anniversary of the arrest of Maximilian Robespierre. Politics have a way of development along strange lines. Could Democrats be planning their own October surprise in September?
Roy,
I love your positivity!
I am positive that Robespierre went to the guillotine. Beyond that, I do not know.
Joe has Ginsberg Syndrome.
Tried warning everyone, Obama plan worked. Now they will swap and who knows 25th might come for Biden . Democracy we are a republic, Trump did not lie. Pelosi did. Holding on to 1/6 and debunked Charlottesville which even snopes debunked 7 years later. You have been lied to by media. All everyone is saying is led because you all cannot handle the truth . Biden voters it’s over .
Racial views of Donald Trump – WikipediaWe all heard what the racist dogwhistler said about Charlottesville. But that was just a small piece of an overall picture of a died-in-the-wool racist. Bannon, Miller, and Sessions CHOSE TRUMP to carry their racist agenda forward because of his long, long, long history of racism. Don’t try to rewrite history. Keep your alternative facts to your alternative facts universe inhabited by other Trumpanzees. They are dumb enough to believe your idiocies.
Racial views of Donald Trump – Wikipedia
Trying to imagine Trump’s substantial rump on a bicycle. ROFL at that one!!!
Maybe.
90 minutes does not decide our future. The need for instant gratification is our national Achilles heal.
90 minutes can well decide our future. The big question about Biden going into this debate was, “Is he too old?”
That question was definitively answered.
More important than his age is who he surrounds himself with. His team is the most important thing we need to judge.
I have said that over and over and over again in these threads. His team is great. It would do a great job if reelected. He is running an extreme risk of NOT being reelected because of his advanced aged and obvious decline. This is unacceptable. Too much is at stake. It makes NO DIFFERENCE if his team would do a great job in a second term IF HE AND HIS TEAM ARE NOT THERE AND THE ORANGE IDIOT AND TRAITOR IS.
So who would be this magical last minute candidate without a campaign war chest or staff that could hit the ground running. Watch the polls that will show no damage was done last night. The battle is for those in the middle, Trump did not win any of them last night. Stop panicking..
Biden will win in a landslide..
given a choice between two old men, I will always choose the one who is not an asshole.
Indeed. All the more when the decision-making capabilities of the one who is not an asshole appear to be intact, whatever his difficulties with communication.
From a principled conservative who used the same word about Trump.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/07/joe-biden-is-an-asshole/
Sometimes one “asshole “is clearly preferable to the other “asshole.”
This is one of those times.
I thought the moderators did a good job. They pushed for Trump to answer the question they asked. I wish they had done fact checking, but at least they held them both to the rules set up beforehand. The problem is that they are depending on the people watching to use their brains instead of just believing whatever comes out of their mouths.
I was shocked when the moderators allowed him to deflect the question about the insurrection. He said it was Nancy Pelosi’s fault. He said she rejected his offer of 10,000 National Guards. All lies. He did nothing.
After watching the debate, I stepped back to look at the big picture. We saw two old men on stage vying to be President of the United States. Neither one should be his party’s candidate.
I then decided to look into the heart and soul of each candidate, and Biden truly has the best intentions of the country inside him. While he meandered in an awful, stumbling manner, he was forthright and honest.
Trump was belittling of Biden throughout the debate, rambled on by stretching lies, ducking and avoiding questions, and continuously attacking Biden. Trump rambled as a dishonest salesman on every question put before him, from the economy to the border issues, to the environment and global warming crisis, to January 6, to Roe v. Wade and abortion, to Putin and Ukraine and NATO, to Social Security and employment, to taxes and addressing the federal budget deficit.
Many things stood out to me about Trump’s ramblings on the topic of the environment, when he wasted time talking about how he supports clean water and clean air, without any substance or thought behind his words.
At the end of the “debate”, I was disheartened but not changed. I am hoping that others will look past last night’s fiasco. Biden does have a solid support group around him, and is not self-centered or dishonest or a threat to democracy, but the only hope on that stage last night.
My choice had not changed, and I am hoping others across the country can step back and look at the big picture as well.
Magnificently put. When T***p was asked what he plans to do about climate change, he replied, “We had great water and air. We had H2O.” At that point, an interventionist G-d would have pulled out His staff, yanked T***p off of the stage vaudeville-style, had Gabriel play a couple of trumpet flourishes, and proclaimed, “Enough. I’m not letting this zhlub destroy the world I made.” Absent divine intervention, it’s on us to show this frame of the big picture, and many more, to others around the country who retain enough rationality to see them for what they are.
From your mouth to G-d’s ears! What a beautiful post.
That said, I wish Biden had hammered Trump more on TFG’s cabinet and how it was constantly churning. It wasn’t the same cabinet from week to week. Trump just insisted they “were all terrible,” but Biden didn’t emphasize that TFG picked them, and what does that say for TFG’s decision making abilities?
There were about 50 major points, obvious points, that Biden should have had ready in response to predictable statements by Trump. Biden had almost none of them ready to hand, though he has been prepping for weeks. Why? Well, clearly, he couldn’t remember them.
So many things Biden could have said. He could have quoted Trump’s own cabinet and other senior officials at him–the ones who called Trump an idiot, a moron, someone with the cognitive capacity of a fifth grader.
Dear Diane,
I’m sorry that you were unable to continue watching. Understandable. I forced myself to see the whole thing.
Sincerely,
Roberta (aka Bobbi) Eisenberg
Fwd: What the debate told us: Biden’s facts are no match for Trump’s lies
PUBLISHED BYREAD ONLINEJennifer Rubin Subscriber-only Edition
This week, I look at last night’s debate, pick the distinguished person of the week and share a marvelous art exhibit.
Former president Donald Trump and President Biden participate in the first presidential debate of the 2024 elections at CNN’s studios in Atlanta on Thursday. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)What caught my eye
The problem for President Biden during his debate with felon and former president Donald Trump: He looked and sounded his age. He may have had his facts in a row, but in this format, it hardly matters. Unfortunately, allowing Trump to blather lies nonstop without fact-checking plays right into a compulsive liar’s hands.
Biden recited his economic accomplishments, reiterated figures on the debt, pounced on Trump for getting Roe v. Wade overturned (and made the case Trump would sign a nationwide ban on abortion), repeated the details of his border plan and called out Trump for “lies” on veterans and immigration. Biden showed real anger when he repeated Gen. John Kelly’s revelation that Trump called dead military “suckers” and “losers.”
He threw some punches, denounced Trump for threatening retribution against his enemies, declared Trump had “the morals of an alley cat,” hit Trump for praising neo-Nazis in Charlottesville and argued Trump doesn’t understand democracy. He brought up the vice president and advisers who refused to endorse Trump. And he said flat out that the only one on the stage who was a felon was Trump. “And now he says that if he loses again, being the whiner that he is, there’s gonna be a bloodbath?” Biden said. He was most effective when going straight at Trump.
Trump, on the other hand, unsurprisingly lied and lied some more. He claimed Biden had only given jobs to illegal immigrants; claimed the world now did not respect the United States; claimed illegal immigrants were on Social Security and Medicare; pretended that other countries pay tariffs; claimed babies are killed after birth; insisted “everyone” wanted abortion brought back to the states; claimed Biden “opened” the borders; and insisted we have “no borders.” On immigration, Trump dreamed up illegal immigrants in luxury hotels. He denied saying that military personnel who died are “suckers” and “losers.” He bizarrely insisted NATO went broke — over and over again. (He still doesn’t understand that our European allies support NATO through their own defense budgets, not by “paying up.”) Most appalling, he claimed Biden encouraged Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He even claimed credit for Biden’s effort to lower insulin drug prices.
As the debate continued, Trump began to show the extent of his break with reality (e.g., saying former House speaker Nancy Pelosi turned down National Guardsman — an appalling lie.) He defended the Jan. 6 mob (after trying to avoid a question), insisted Biden was a criminal and refused to say definitively he would accept the results of the election. Biden got stronger, more incensed as the debate went along. He will not, however, silence questions about his age.
The debate format allowed Trump to present a nonstop stream of nonsense and lies. Biden was compelled to play whack-a-mole. It is humanly impossible to bat them all down in a situation such as this, but Biden did a workmanlike job, gaining ground as the 90 minutes ticked by (e.g., pointing out the economy was “flat on its back” when Biden took over).
Trump can shamelessly lie when moderators don’t fact-check in real time. The format simply does not work with an inveterate liar. But at points, Trump showed his true colors and his utter inability to answer straight policy questions (e.g., he could never answer a question on child care or on opioids). One is left somewhat despondent that millions of Americans will nevertheless vote for him.ADVERTISEMENT
Yes. That’s an excellent recap.
Agreed, bobbibeb. Your insistence of actually summarizing the points instead of inflating the delivery of such is a breath of fresh air on here.
I’m still in shock at the commenters who are doubling down on Biden’s few performance issues last evening. I don’t trust anyone in the Democratic Party as much as I trust Joe Biden. The knowledge and experience he has curated over his long career blows everyone who comes behind him out of the water. His wisdom and incredibly strong judgement of character shows a mastery at delegating the work to the smartest and most capable people. He is the ultimate in wise management.
This debate is one splash of a president’s profile, yet said profile has been made to be all about how strong of a speaker he was in that moment. He has lost a step. We all have. Only those with a narrow view of the presidency can write off this man based on one “debate” that was not even a debate.
Thank you for the thoughtful analysis of the substance and for ignoring the Hollywood expectations. I feel that those who are so eager to back up what they have been saying about Biden’s age by slamming his performance have gone off the reality train. They have elevated this event as the only thing that matters.
June 27, 2024 – by Heather Cox Richardson (substack.com)
“The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.”
Heather Cox Richardson’s column is the only sane reply to the naysayers here. I appreciate you linking to it, Bob, especially when you seem to strongly disagree with all her points.
I emphatically do NOT “strongly disagree with all her points.” If you read my comments above at all carefully, you would know that. BUT I DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A DISCUSSION WITH YOU ABOUT THIS. I HAVE A FREAKING LIFE.
I have said repeatedly that Trump is an utter disaster and that a Biden corporate presidency would be far better than that vile thug in the office. I SAID IT ON THIS VERY PAGE. I SAID WHAT SHE SAID ON THIS VERY PAGE. I give up. Read before you write, NYC. This is ridiculous.
And she’s wrong that “he is running it.” It is being run by Biden AND THE GROUP OF PEOPLE AROUND HIM. Clearly. But enough. Go ahead. Open the firehose of vituperative and utterly weird commentary about things I didn’t say. Let it flow and flow and flow as it has so many times in the past. I do not intend to respond. I DO NOT WANT A BACK AND FORTH WITH YOU ON THIS TOPIC.
I AM SO NOT INTERESTED IN ATTENDING, YET AGAIN, TO YOUR COMPLETE MISREADING OF EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID AND YOUR VERBOSE ATTACKS ON THE STRAW MAN IDEAS THAT YOU ATTRIBUTE TO ME IN YOUR MISREADING. BEEN THERE. DONE THAT.
Bob Shepherd
June 27, 2024 at 11:00 pm
“The folks around Joe, who know that he works three-hour days because any more time is beyond his capacity, should have ganged up to keep him from running again. This is a nightmare. No way is he fit to be running for president again. I got sick of being shouted down here for saying so a few months ago. Well, here we are.”
or, since you like all caps:
“THIS IS A NIGHTMARE. NO WAY IS HE FIT TO BE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN. I GOT SICK OF BEING SHOUTED DOWN HERE FOR SAYING SO A FEW MONTHS AGO.”
I don’t need to make 4 or 5 all cap posts.
I AGREE WITH HEATHER COX RICHARDSON.
If you, flerp! and Eleanor want to keep attacking me because you are all so ANGRY that I agree with Heather Cox Richardson, then go ahead.
If you want me to retract my comment that YOU don’t agree with Heather Cox Richardson, I will. But then stop attacking me for agreeing with her.
I did not attack you for agreeing with her.
I haven’t write anything about you so try to keep my name out of your mouth.
flerp!,
I owe you an apology. I am sorry.
I read Bob’s brief comment high above “Flerp tried to tell people here. No one would listen.”, which was followed by Eleanor’s reply to Bob gratuitously invoking my name out of the blue, and erroneous recalled you being part of that. You were not. I am sorry.
I will do as you do, and respond to Eleanor with the courteous manner you responded to me (don’t worry, I will credit you as I don’t want to be accused of plagiarism.)
One of the problems here has to do with answering questions in real time.
Trump had the advantage. All he had to do was continue to tell forceful lies and evade the questions about his policy plans. Biden tried to answer the questions but wasn’t consistently up to the challenge.
If Trump had actually answered the questions, he’d have exposed himself as having nothing to offer. But instead, the moderators allowed him to backtrack to the previous rebuttal and use up his time. It was disgusting.
Psykiater Bandy Lee writes on x:
“Joe Biden is old, and he shows it. However, he shows no sign of dangerousness, and his actual performance has proven mental fitness. It is rather Donald Trump’s extreme dangerousness (and mental unfitness) that should alarm everyone as a global public health emergency.”
https://x.com/aeroladyny/status/1806656708929872278?t=chCKxpCWenGpGJJpYr1eZg&s=19
Amen. Operative word, “should”
Whoever thought that a substantive debate was possible just because there was no audience and mikes were cut was oddly naive. Trump (possibly aided by Adderall), will lie about anything and everything, making it impossible to fact-check him in real time. Trump’s supporters probably think he did great and told the truth. Last night I felt a shadow of the despair I felt at 10 pm on election night in 2016. I hope it won’t turn out to be a premonition.
The Supremes have just overturned Chevron. The Kochs are in ascendance this morning.
A disaster.
It’s one after another these days.
Well, here we are, June 2024.
If someone had told me 50 years ago (the summer Nixon was sent packing) that the United States of America could end up with the sort of debate I watched last night, well, would I have believed it might ever happen in my lifetime?
And, here’s the thing…
Both candidates KNEW long in advance that at the end of the debate, each had two minutes to sum up their vision for our world’s future. And, look at what we got.
Both of their summations were train wrecks…they were rambling shambles. And, again, this final part of the debate was absolutely NO SURPRISE to each of these men, presidents both. Wouldn’t any reasonable person have attempted to write AND memorize a great oration, given the stage they were standing on and the unprecedented moment we are all sharing with them in history?
Two minutes!
How badly would this combined four minutes rank if historians made a listing of the worst moments in recent U.S. history?
I am glad to see that Heather Cox Richardson can find some perspective amidst this debacle (linked above by Bob.)
And, of course, there’s plenty of time and possible wild cards between now and November.
Curious to hear if any of you read Tom Friedman’s piece. I’m no big fan of his but…. wow! “Joe Biden Is a Good Man and a Good President. He Must Bow Out of the Race.”
https://dnyuz.com/2024/06/28/joe-biden-is-a-good-man-and-a-good-president-he-must-bow-out-of-the-race/
I turned it off and watched Ted Lasso instead. I just couldn’t. From the moment President Biden walked out, looking like a deer in the headlights, I knew it wasn’t going to be good. He didn’t walk out briskly, smiling and confidently. I am so sorry that people watched this and are left with this impression. Yes, he is old. We know that, HE knows that. But so is tRump. And every word out of tRumps mouth was a lie. I wish CNN had a crawler for fact checking along the bottom of the screen during the event. That would have been helpful. Fox, Newmax and OAN are crowing this morning. And there is not much we can do about it.
The Democrats need to find a younger, more articulate person to run for President (actually two of them as we’ll need a VP as well). Then have another debate where the new candidate throws Trump’s lies back in his face, force Trump to lose his cool on national TV and really show everyone watching exactly what we could expect under a Trump “presidency”. IMO much of the country has no idea what Trump would do should he be elected this time – it is downright scary. The moderators need to have some backbone and, yes, there needs to be a time lag for fact-checking. But throwing his lies right back at him is one way to counter a bully.
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I have a solution that no one has suggested, but it does call the bluff of those who believe there is an ideal Democrat candidate out there who wouldn’t be smeared as unfit for the presidency for xxx reasons:
First: Justice Sandra Sotomayor immediately announces her retirement and shortly after, Biden nominates Kamala Harris to replace her. Hearings are held as quickly as they were held for Amy Coney Bryant and Harris is quickly confirmed.
At the same time as he nominates Kamala Harris, Biden ALSO nominates (fill in blank here) to replace Kamala as VP nominee. That person is confirmed at the Democratic Convention and there is absolutely no more talk of Biden not being fit.
If this scenario happened, who would Biden nominate? We are supposed to believe there is some other ideal presidential nominee who Americans who hate Biden and are terrified of Kamala Harris would flock to support. If that was really the case, those would flock to support this unnamed candidate KNOWING that they will be president when Biden steps down because his age has made it impossible for him to do his job.
By the way, Biden doing this would create far less chaos than any other option. The president ALWAYS gets to nominate a VP — we don’t even know who Trump is going to pick yet. There is no convention fight and democrats show their unity, and there is supposedly no qualms about “dementia-riddled” Biden since this supposed ideal untouchable candidate for VP is waiting in the wings.
Biden stepping down would cause chaos at the convention. Kamala Harris being forced out would cause anger. But Kamala getting a SC Justice seat would make way for a different VP with no hard feelings (except maybe Sotomayor fans, but she’d be acclaimed for saving democracy).
So who should this unknown VP pick be?
My daughter and I were talking about Sotomayor stepping down, yesterday. Interesting scenario, NYC. A viable exit strategy. Think Harris could get confirmed?
Yes, if the Dems in the Senate are unified because they want to win the election. Do they need Joe Manchin to confirm?
The Dems “dumping” Kamala Harris would just give the right wing another talking point in propaganda targeted at women and black voters.
But making her a SC Justice is a huge promotion from VP.
And the VP nominee is always the choice of the president. There’s no controversy – Trump is going to pick his and Biden will pick his.
When Bill Clinton chose Al Gore there was a collective gasp because Gore was arguably a lot more prepared for the presidency than Clinton and had enormous experience. I still believe that choosing Gore won Clinton the election. He was a barely known Governor of a small state with little experience. But Gore was there to qualm the doubters and change the narrative about how Clinton wasn’t up for the job.
This would take Sotomayor going along. But I think it would be a game changer.
I personally would be delighted to have Kamala Harris as president, just as I would have been delighted to have HRC. But if a 2nd, younger, experienced version of Biden stopped this ridiculous narrative that it is Biden who is unfit and not Trump, I support her taking a SC Justice position instead.
^^I wasn’t alive then, but it seems as if JFK choosing LBJ also pushed him over the top in the 1960 election. LBJ in the wings qualmed the fears of an experienced JFK.
Here’s the thing that just kills me. Trump is a traitor to his country. He has been in bed with our enemy–Russia under Putin, for decades. This is so obvious that anyone in the intelligence community who doubts it should not use the term “intelligence” when referring to what he or she does. It makes me sick to my stomach that a person this vile, a lowlife of the poorest possible character, should be treated as godlike by an entire polticial party in the United States. These are the depths to which we have sunk. I thought it was bad when Reagan was selling us out to the Iranian jihadists. I thought it was bad when Bushie Jr. was carrying out his insane Holy War against civilians in the cradle of civilization based on the Bible (I’m not kidding) and nonexistent WMD. But Trump is the lowest POS I have ever seen in American politics. Completely irredemable. And breathtakingly dangerous. NO ONE HERE has mentioned the facts that the GUTTED both the Clean Water and Clean Air Acts and Biden had to reinstate them. This is one of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of things that Biden COULD HAVE SAID if he weren’t totally in the throws of dementia and incapable of remembering the slightest thing.
O what a noble mind is here o’erthrown!
Bob,
I don’t know the state of Biden’s mind. I do know his deeds. 95% of the time he does the right thing. Compared to 0% for Trump.
Biden has been a huge disappointment on education. Cardona is a nonentity. Biden has been good on student debt.
Missing in action on charters, vouchers, censorship book bans, Moms against Liberty, critical race theory, the attacks on separation of church and state.
But his silence and Cardona’s irrelevance is nothing compared to Trump-DeVos advocacy for the destruction of public schools.
Well, after the debate, tRump got $8 million in donations and Biden received $14 million. (See article below)
Even though I was disappointed that night, knowing Biden was the one on that stage who truly does have the biggest heart, not the serial liar who claimed it, I was one of the supporters who donated to Biden after the debate, even though I struggle on poverty level SSRI & don’t usually send money to politicians. Anyone can have a bad day, so I’m not ready to give up on Joe.
https://www.rawstory.com/trump-biden-debate-2668642861/
I made my first donation to the Biden campaign yesterday after watching him talk in Raleigh. He said, “I don’t walk as well as I used to. I don’t debate as well as I used to. But I tell the truth and I know the difference between right and wrong.”
Yeah, he does much better when he has a teleprompter. LOL
Most people do better with a teleprompter including Trump. When his teleprompter goes off, he rambles incoherently, like the time he worried out loud about electric boats, what happens if the battery dies, the boat sinks, do you get electrocuted or eaten by a shark.
In the Apprentice, tRump had a teleprompter on the screen of the phone that was sitting on the table in the board room, so he’s been relying on other people’s words/scripts displayed for him on teleprompters for quite a long time. Since he spouted so many familiar lies during the debate the other day, I think he probably prepared for it by reviewing the political scripts he has on teleprompters, as well as tapes of himself saying those same things many times before.
And, it still, all, relies on, whose LIES the voters, fall, for in the, upcoming presidential, election, and, both candidates, based, solely off of the, debate had, proven themselves, BAD presidential, candidates…
Occasional errors differ greatly from never-ending blatant lies. When the choice is between a non-stop self-aggrandizing con-artist with “the morals of an alley cat,” as Biden so lucidly pointed out at the debate, and someone who genuinely cares about people and seeks to remedy the human condition, for those of us who are truly concerned about the future of our democratic republic, as well as our planet, it’s not even a toss-up.