Leonie Haimson and Jeanette Deutermann explain here why the opt out movement is right and necessary. If policymakers continue on their present path, they predict, the opt out movement will grow and spread to many other states who see the power of grassroots activism.
They do so in response to editorials in the New York Times and the Washington Post criticizing the parents who opt out of mandated testing.
The mainstream media echoes the Obama administration’s line that high-stakes testing will somehow promote equity and reduce the achievement gap, but as Haimson and Deutermann contend, thirteen years of No Child Left Behind demonstrate that this assertion is false.
Haimson and Deutermann write:
Why should parents put their children through this time-consuming, anxiety-producing and pointless exercise? When parents are repeatedly ignored by policymakers, opting out is their only option.
For months leading up to the assessments, and especially during the two weeks of testing, parents report their children show signs of anxiety, sleep problems, physical symptoms, school phobias and attention difficulties. This phenomenon has been growing among children as young as 8 years old. To add insult to injury, for the last three years the exams have become overly long and confusing, with incoherent questions like the pineapple passage on theeighth-grade exam in 2010, and the talking snake passage on thethird-grade test this year. Our youngest learners sit for up to 18 hours of state testing.
The most vulnerable children – students with disabilities and English language learners – are asked to endure exams that are so inappropriate even the state asked for waivers from the federal government, which were denied. Only 3.9 percent of English language learners and 5.7 percent of students with disabilities passed these exams. The bar should be set high for all children, but at an appropriate level for each child.
Parents have become increasingly frustrated at watching the alarming changes in their children and their education, along with the waste of precious tax dollars. More than 220,000 New York state parents chose to have their children refuse the state exams this year, in both high-performing suburban districts and struggling city schools, to express their anger. Many teachers joined parents in the fight to protect their students and the integrity of their profession. The question is, will the powers that be listen and make the necessary changes? If not, the number of opt-outs will continue to grow until parents’ voices are heard by policymakers, the tests are improved, the punitive, high-stakes exams removed, and real teaching and learning return to our classrooms.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I think this is offensive, from a former Obama Administration official, and I’m not even an opt-outer:
“Of those opting out of testing in NY, most were mid-hi income, low-performing white kids. What are we to make of this?”
Well, I don’t know what “we” make of it but public school parents were assured repeatedly that their kids would not be labeled “low performing” by the data freaks in the ed reform “movement” so maybe they should keep their word and resist the temptation to use these kids’ scores as a political weapon.
Someone should remind her we were told our kids were “more than a score” and that would be respected by “the adults”, even those adults with a career or political agenda.
Can we expect more of this as this experiment continues? Using individual scores to push a “movement” agenda?
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That’s really offensive.
Intelligent people will see right through crap like that.
We’re seeing a lot of people on the deform side discredit themselves publicly as intelligent, informed, decent and well-rounded people.
It should be documented collectively. Seriously. They’re not venting, they’re angling, ugly style. They’re more than fair game.
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And that is why I will continue fighting for our children, parents and teachers until this entire Common Core nightmare is over.
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Over 50% next year! Fueled by Elia’s foolishness and the fact that people now fully understand that Tisch is a front person for the corporatists. Kids and parents would respond positively if NYSED ever proposed something that helped them. Time to take back our school districts from Albany and DC! The New York State School Boards Association used to stand (and fight) for “local control.” Now under Albany insider, and full time money grubber Tim Kremer this organization is fully aligned with Albany and the Board of Regents. Kremer is a complete sell oT!
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Parent’s asserting their rights.
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*Parents
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I saw StudentsFirst are already pushing charters with the test results.
Remember back when lobbyists and their politicians were selling this to public school parents and we were repeatedly assured that “the adults” would NOT use our kids scores to push a “movement” political agenda?
Another solemn ed reform vow goes under the ‘ol campaign bus.
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Parents may have to lead this battle. An astute commenter at the Perdido Street blog has suggested that Elia’s warning uses the language of 3020a teacher law and suggests that teachers could be brought up on moral charges not only for supporting Opt Out but for NOT even challenging Opt Out. Not sure what that means for teachers who happen to be parents. The conciliatory language Cuomo and Tisch are using has been extended ONLY to parents. New Yorkers need to learn from Floridians with whom they are dealing when dealing with Elia. This is the woman who received thousands of dollars in bonuses for forcing students into AP classes among other things.
“Hillsborough School Superintendent Mary Ellen Elia doesn’t tread lightly when it comes to bonuses. Elia who makes $263,000 a year and has received an additional $184,889 in bonuses including money for increasing students in Advanced Placement classes for the five years she has been in charge of schools.
Asked how she justifies the thousands of dollars in bonuses when 60 percent of the students are failing the AP tests.
“Part of the work that is done with AP is we get students ready for the exam and there is work that has been done that show if a student is in a high level course it is a great place for them to be,” said Elia.
When pushed about the bonuses, Elia only wanted to talk about the $55,000 she gave to charity and not the $134,000 she kept.
“I appreciate you taking the interest in it thank you,” said Elia.”
http://highlandscounty.wtsp.com/news/news/90429-big-raises-bonuses-and-salaries-taxpayers-hook
Might she receive a bonus for silencing Opt Out?
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NPE linked to an article indicating her Florida district is finding out that she led them into financial difficulties: http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/hillsborough-school-district-has-been-dipping-into-emergency-funds-to/2239946?can_id=c70ceec14800001df1348f4e9c7a21db&source=email-teacher-shortage-ny-times-got-it-wrong&email_referrer=teacher-shortage-ny-times-got-it-wronghttp://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/hillsborough-school-district-has-been-dipping-into-emergency-funds
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Many teachers are parents, too and they as well will speak through refusing the tests for their children. In fact, many already have and for that I am grateful.,
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The MacArthur grant should go to a researcher and advocate for public education, like Mercedes Schneider.
An article, about the opt-out movement, in the latest Mother Jones magazine issue, has a story about one minority student’s decision to opt out, which is compelling.
The data provided about urban schools, as contrasted with suburban schools, shows, 3rd-5th grade students spend 80% more time on mandated tests, 6th-8th grade, 73% more time and 9th-12th, 266% more. It’s discriminatory. And, it’s unconscionable.
Those who have been abused by a system of injustice in this country deserve better than the schemes of profiteers, who target the most vulnerable.
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Here’s an idea… How about we (U.S. citizens) hire Pearson to create a TEST to administer to all our elected officials (including Arne Duncun) before they can run for office? How about it Governor Cuomo and Scott Walker? And, if you fail, you have to take the test again. If you do not pass, you do not get to be on a ballot.
What do you think the pass rate would be?
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This is what happens when you get activists who have no STEM capability whatsoever.
First, class sizes have almost insignificant effects. We are much better off putting more students in the classrooms of effective teachers and allowing the ineffective ones to damage fewer kids.
Second, a 1/3 reduction in class size mandates a 50% increase in per pupil costs. Read that again. They are advocating class size reductions of 1/3 or more. That created huge tax bills. Even if one were to use such sums of money, it could be better spent on 10 different programs with better results than decreasing class size.
Third, reducing class size waters down the talent pool. We already have a hard time getting talented teachers. Whenever a sports league expands, the overall average talent declines. The top players are spread over more teams. We would be better off having fewer teachers and supplementing them with grading assistants and computer-based teaching aids than trying to thin out the ranks of the great teachers.
You’ll notice that these activists never cite wide-scale research in their arguments. It’s just “rah-rah let’s get rid of all accountability by banning the tests”. They will go down as a footnote in the reform movement of how some parents can be so ill-informed.
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Virginiasgp,
The research supporting class size reduction is extensive and far more evidence-based than VAM. I suggest you read the chapter in my book “Reign of Error” and check out the footnotes.
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Ok, I’ll post my comments to the class size issues here.
West Coast Teacher, it sounds like you are forsaking the native kids for the ESL kids, correct? While I disagree with that concept on its face, there might be occasional need to have some smaller workgroups. Technology will moderate much of this demand as computerized lessons will be able to teach kids the basics. We need teachers to explain the concepts and work on the more subtle issues. We don’t need a teacher for every 8 kids to teach them what a noun, subject, verb, adverb, predicate, etc. are.
But in the end, show us the research. And the associated costs. You see, the home-schooled kids make the least sense of all. You essentially have a 2:1 student/teacher ratio and none of the network effects you get in school. While it may be possible for a parent to understand some of the basic subjects fully, it’s virtually impossible to home-school high school kids taking a full load. And the opportunity costs of those parents are quite high. One would think they could easily earn more than the costs of a public school ($12K/yr per pupil). Costs must be taken into consideration.
NYC public school parent, private schools can do whatever they want. As long as the parents are fully aware and knowingly choose that policy for their kids, they are free to choose. Nobody protects you from being stupid. As I mentioned in the home-school example, those class sizes are a huge waste of money. In college, the class sizes will exceed those in high school, certainly at the top schools. Folks want the best instructor, not an ineffective one for every 6-8 students.
retired teacher, we invest way too much in ESL classes. Immigrants from Europe/Asia never had ESL classes and learned the language in ~2 years. Much of it depends on the students’ desire. A college roommate grew up in the valley in California. He assisted his parents picking the crops. His mother cut out the knees of his jeans so his knees would feel the hot ground. She didn’t want him to get comfortable with their station in life. He learned English by watching old movies. He literally had seen every Oscar-winning film. He later attended Harvard. While he was talented, the desire of the teachers should not exceed that of the students. And with computer-aided instruction these days, it’s much cheaper to put the kids in front of step-by-step lessons for 1/3 to 1/2 the day. The teachers can summarize the concepts and help the class share common themes. But we (the taxpayers) simply don’t have the $$$ to provide individualized instruction to undocumented immigrants at 6-8 students per class. But again, show us the research that definitively proves that even works.
Diane, I will check the footnotes but a good summary of the research I have seen can be found here. It’s like the EPA making absolute limits without taking into consideration how much it costs. If a policy costs $300B/yr but only generates $500M in health savings, that is an asinine policy. When anyone advocates smaller class sizes, you must both (1) quantify the costs of that policy and how large the needed reductions will be and (2) explain the effects on the quality of the larger pool of teachers and how you will recruit this larger teacher workforce. By lowering class size, you are, by definition, lowering teacher quality on average.
I will address the ethics of a principal publicly opposing state policy but I think that is best suited for the other post (Carol Burris resisting NY policy).
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sorry, Virginia, class size reduction is one of the most effective remedies for low achievement. It enables the teacher to give more individual attention to each child. If class size didn’t matter, why do wealthy families spend $40,000-50,000 to send their children to schools that boast about their small classes? For that matter, why do elite prep schools boast about their small classes? I said I wouldn’t engage with you anymore, but you spout nonsense and it must be contradicted. Again, read my chapter on class size in “Reign of Error.” It summarizes the state of research on class size.
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Diane, families spend $40,000+ to send their children to elite private schools because A. they have an outstanding track record of preparing children to be admitted to and excel in the nation’s most selective and prestigious universities, B. they have an outstanding track record of preparing children to be admitted to and excel in the nation’s most selective and prestigious universities, and C. they have an outstanding track record of preparing children to be admitted to and excel in the nation’s most selective and prestigious universities.
Do small class sizes play a role in this? Probably. So does being able to hire teachers for their expertise in a particular subject: they can hire a woman who has a masters in physics from Caltech but no teaching degree, e.g. So does having more resources to directly shower upon kids–no pension plans, no big bureaucracies, no special ed kids or poor kids or even merely average kids. So does being able to set the bar really, really high with respect to expectations, whether it is the caliber of lesson a teacher is supposed to deliver every single day, student behavior, etc.
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Tim,
Parents choose elite private schools because they are highly selective. They do not have children with severe disabilities, they do not have English language learners, they have very few (if any) extremely poor children, they expel behavior problems–just like charter schools. Given that such schools, with their high tuition, enroll children of very rich, highly educated families, the kids start school at third base, and you think that they hit a home run. Please note that no such school offers large class sizes. Almost all advertise their small classes–which may be as small as 12 children in a class. Sorry, Tim, it is not about expectations, it is about privilege.
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Wow virginiasgp has just called parents at elite private schools stupid but also says they are “free to choose”. And of course as a promoter of school privatization virginiasgp always posts here about how public school parents are “free to choose” a charter school. And he also supports charter schools where large cohorts of at-risk students mysteriously disappear because he strongly supports charter schools being free to choose to make their lives misery. The only people who aren’t free to choose are parents who want to opt out of poorly designed tests.
Meanwhile virginiasgp has insulted every parent who chooses a private school as well as their boards by saying they are stupid people wasting money on bad teachers. Do the hedge fund billionaires who support large classes for public school kids but send their own to private schools know that you just called them stupid?
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NYC public school parent, a little out of context and in direct opposition to my comments, you think?
1. I said Duncan, Gates and others may use private schools because (in addition to needing extra security), they want all high-VAM teachers instead of just the usual 25%. I haven’t seen the private school data but if you have wealth, spend it on your priorities.
2. You said I support charters. Note what I have said is that I do not plan to use charters for my kids because of the benefits of public schools. This includes being exposed to a broad range of kids from various backgrounds and often classes of enough size (400+ per grade) that sports and other activities can be offered. Never let a little disinformation get in the way of your argument, eh?
3. I do think that many private schools do not merit their costs. Just like many test prep academies are essentially marketing engines, the private schools pitch benefits without any hard data. Now, as in (1) above, I’m sure there are schools in which the teachers really do justify the cost, but those are likely pretty rare (private schools generally have lower pay than public schools btw). Note that I had to compete with the grads of these prep schools. I did not find that I was at any disadvantage. Just saying. But I do understand it makes mama and papa feel like they did everything possible for their kids.
I want everyone to be able to choose freely. That’s called being a democracy (classical liberal) and living in a capitalist society. With full-value vouchers (as the late, great Friedman espoused), everyone would have that choice. Pretty much like Obamacare don’t you think?
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Virginia,
Private school teachers don’t have VAM scores. Neither do teachers in Japan, S. Korea, Finland, Canada, Singapore, or any other high performing nation.
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Diane,
Actually they do. Just because VAMs haven’t been calculated for those teachers doesn’t mean they don’t exist. That would be like saying a person doesn’t have height until he measures himself. And the private school teachers have readily accessible data to do so.
Btw, can freedom-loving, truth-telling patriots attend your April shindig too?
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Virginia,
I don’t understand. You say that private school teachers have VAM scores even though they don’t give annual standardized tests. Somehow their principals know how good they are, without test scores.
Great point! Lets do the same in public schools! Human judgment, not standardized tests.
Anyone can sign up for the NPE conference.
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Yes, actually we all have VAM scores, in all walks of life. The variables include all living and working circumstances, generalized and/or extrapolated stats of those circumstances, all matters of personality, skills, talents, effort, health as well as DNA composition for traits that have yet to surface. The variables stretch out into the billions and some strange things happen to the weightings and compounding effects here. While theoretically the scores should tend toward zero as absolutely everything in the known and theoretical universe becomes accounted for, they actually fluctuate infinitely. We tried massaging and kneading them out via ergodic processes, fitting the massive summations to matrix representations and polynomial functions, we tried functors, minor deformations to fit into Lie groups. And we did make progress. We got the flux down one entire order of infinity, from n to n – 1. But we can’t fix what n is.
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Akademos, I sure hope you never bet on sports or try to beat the hedge funds. They put their money where their mouths are based on objective algorithms. And win.
That’s the true test here. Who will be the first to volunteer to bet based on the old observations evals while I use VAMs. If you are not willing to do so, you reveal your true colors – all talk.
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But Virginia, where are the VAMS for those great private school teachers? They don’t give standardized tests yet you say they have VAMS anyway. Let’s get the public school VAMS the same way that private school teachers get VAMS.
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Diane, I agree 100%.
Tim, can you help me out here with those private school internal communications on their annual standardized tests? Those could certainly be used to generate VAMs. In fact, I can hook them up with the SAS sales rep who can explain how the software works.
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Virginiasgp,
Some of my grandchildren went to private religious schools (others to Public Schools). They NEVER took standardized tests.
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I would advocate the private religious schools take those tests to learn how they stack up. But surely you are not saying that all private schools, especially the top prep schools, don’t give standardized tests? I believe Tim provided letters to parents about the annual tests they took.
Are you suggesting that private schools don’t achieve the growth they claim? Are you becoming a supporter of VAMs and just want all schools to participate? Say it ain’t so, Diane!
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Virginia, I don’t know of any elite private school that gives students annual standardized tests. Maybe the charters that Tim promotes do that, but they are not elite private schools. I don’t know of any private schools that boast of “growth scores.” They don’t have any. They send kids to Ivy League schools because most of their students were born to very wealthy, very privileged families, with one or two parents who are college graduates.
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“They send kids to Ivy League schools because most of their students were born to very wealthy, very privileged families, with one or two parents who are college graduates.”
They also have been very well educated. It takes a little more than a silver spoon to get into an Ivy League (or any top notch program). I suppose it might be hard to refuse someone whose daddy donated $$$$, but there are too many extremely bright students on these campuses who worked d****d hard to get there to put up with someone whose only asset was a rich daddy. What is a shame is that everyone does not have an equal shot at attending college if they so choose. I know some of my students who could have gone to college will never have that opportunity, and the overwhelming barrier was their socioeconomic background. Many of them lost out on a climate that encouraged education, and the schools they attended were weaker than those of neighboring, wealthier communities. Neither they or their parents had the experience to realize they were being shortchanged. Many of them needed to go to work to help support their families. Perhaps their time will come, but it won’t be easy.
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Often you have to fix things before you get appreciable accuracy.
Aside from that, you really got me, man. I’m on a blog for discussion and all I’m doing is talking.
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virginiasgp says: “I want everyone to be able to choose freely… Pretty much like Obamacare don’t you think?”
It IS like Obamacare if everyone could “choose freely” their hospital when they got sick and the hospital could “choose freely” to make that patient miserable until he left — but only if he had a hard to treat cancer that was far too expensive to treat or they just didn’t feel like the patient’s family “fit” their kind of hospital. And of course, in reward for that “successful” rate of cure that the hospital now has and brags about, the politicians give them even MORE money! Which gives them more ability to market to the barely sick while the really sick are made to feel miserable until they choose another hospital. But since there are more “barely sick” patients who are treated very nicely, and since no one regulates this hospital since patients are “choosing freely”, most people don’t know. Until you are the unlucky person whose kid gets cancer and is treated like crap and made miserable until you are forced to use the underfunded hospital where 10 nurses work with 200 of the very sickest children (and you are told that “patient case load doesn’t matter because that nice “successful” hospital run by the private company has great results with 20 patients with sore throats being treated by one nurse, so why shouldn’t this hospital’s nurses care for 20 kids with stage 4 cancer? ) And of course, the doctors there are told they are terrible because they can’t match the “success” of the unethical hospital that is getting rich charging just as much money for the cheapest patients! If you like that, you are probably someone who wishes Cancer Treatment Centers of America was given even more public dollars while Sloan Kettering gets less. Of course, since rich people’s kids get cancer too, and they haven’t yet figured out how to convince the public to underwrite expensive and wonderful cancer care treatment centers just for their kids, you don’t see the same kind of lies about how “choice” works just fine because everyone is free to choose the hospital that is free to make the life of children they DON’T like miserable until they leave! Is that what you mean by “freedom?” Because I think you should think about whether letting hospitals have the freedom to make a patient with a serious illness miserable until they “voluntarily” leave (or have one of their “experts” tell their poor distraught mother that your hospital just can’t help their child anymore and they’d be far better off at that public hospital that has all the really sick patients). What a terrible world you envision for our children, virginiagsp. You are correct that maybe with the freedom to choose, the privatizers can get very rich educating the easiest to teach children. But what happens to the other 40% or 30% or even 20%? They are apparently expendable in underfunded schools because they just cost too much money and like the cancer patients whose cancer is just too advanced, why bother to spend more than the bare minimum on those children, right? If you wonder why the privatization movement is so repellent to me, it is because the privatizers want the PROFITS in educating the cheapest to educate kids (yes, even the non-profits that pay themselves outrageous salaries and use their schools results to promote their own ambitions). And the savings spent to educate the easiest children should be spent on the children who are more expensive to educate. Just like I believe that the profits from treating the children with the mildest diseases should be spent on treating the children with cancer instead of those profits going to hospitals profiting from only treating the mildly ill kids but pretending they are treating “every child”. And of course, BLAMING the child for not getting healthier because the fact that another child with strep throat got well “proves” that their hospital works for anyone! And it’s the child’s fault if the can’t get well. Unless that child goes to the public hospital and then it’s the public hospital’s fault that they aren’t curing the cancer at the same rate that the private hospital is curing strep throat. I could go on, but it is that kind of thinking that makes me wonder about people like virginiasgp. And makes me so distrustful of the so-called “reformers” who only seem to care about the kids who are easiest to teach but are pretending they care about ALL students.
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Sidwell Friends administers standardized tests in grades 5, 6, 7, and 8. Lakeside gives them in 6 and 8. Harpeth Hall administers them in 5, 6, 7, and 8. It is true that not every elite independent school in New York City administers such tests, but many of them do, including uber-elite schools like Brearley, Chapin, Spence, Horace Mann, etc. More often than not it is the CTP/ERBs, but some use Iowa or California tests. All Catholic schools and many other private and religious schools in New York State take the same NYSED assessments as public school students.
Isidore Newman, an elite private school in New Orleans, has put together an explainer about why they make their grade 3-8 students take the CTP/ERBs. Here is their rationale (it’s very similar to Sidwell’s): “At Newman, we use the annual results, in combination with assessments selected and developed by our faculty, to evaluate and at times, augment our curriculum and to plan group and individual student instruction. In our evaluation of this or other testing, we are continually assessing how a child is progressing individually and in relation to his/her peers.”
Click to access Getting%20Ready%20for%20the%20ERB’s.pdf
One more time: many $40,000+ elite private schools administer some form of standardized test to their students. The tests are usually given on computers or tablets, and they are long enough that they need to be given over the course of several days. It is used to make sure that the child is on course for admission to an elite college; to inform instructional and curriculum choices; and, rarely, to bolster the school’s case that an elementary- or middle-school-aged child should be counseled out before high school.
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I see no indication that these tests are used to make high stakes decisions. Neither are they limited to one “score.” If they are used to inform instruction, then that means they are able to look at the individual tests. As a special education teacher, I used the results of standardized tests along with observations, work product, and conferencing with students and parents as well as collaborating with other professionals to inform and/or make instructional decisions. High stakes testing associated with CCSS bears no resemblance to practice that informs instructional decisions.
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2old2teach, that’s the point. These tests are not designed to be formative and help you out during the year. You have weekly/monthly/quarterly tests including those on software to help you do that. These tests are specifically designed to gauge how well our children are learning and to evaluate the performance of our administrators, principals, teachers, and policies. Period.
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Virginiasgp,
That is a misuse of the tests. I don’t know of any standardized test whose purpose is to “evaluate the performance of our administrators, principals, teachers, and policies.” The purpose of standardized tests is to measure students’ progress.
A cardinal rule of the testing industry is that TESTS MUST ALWAYS BE USED FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH THEY WERE DESIGNED.
Violating this rule invalidates the findings.
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You are flat out wrong, virginiasgp. Achievement tests are not designed to assess anything but the student’s level of achievement and without multiple years of data it is risky to draw any conclusions from the scores. When they are used as an adjunct to classroom assessment those scores may or may not support those conclusions, which is why NO decisions should be made on the basis of such limited data.
CCSS tests should not be used for any high stakes decisions. Even if we ignore the unprofessional way the standards and tests were developed, we have no reliability or validity data. For a country that is apparently composed of idiots, we certainly have done well for ourselves over the years. I’m sure if we continue to work hard at it, we can manage to kill any trace of the creativity or ingenuity for which we have been known. Let’s just keep testing our kids out the wazoo. Everybody knows that perpetual testing will increase our intellectual capital.
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2old2teach, the reason why Newman and Sidwell send these reassuring notices is that some kids are terrified of the tests. Kids who are struggling with class work may be ushered out the door if they get a bad ERB score. The stakes are much higher for them than for a public school student taking a state test.
The stakes certainly aren’t as high for the schools and teachers. But these schools don’t have compulsory education laws and catchment areas: if the school doesn’t produce results, no one will send their child there. And the teachers are all at-will employees: if there is an issue, the school can simply dismiss a teacher. Every day is high-stakes, in some respects.
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I’m sorry, Tim. Show me the evidence that these tests are used to weed out the bad seed. It is not just PR to say that the standardized tests are only a part of the way they evaluate student performance. Obviously, in rare circumstances, a student may be asked to leave for academic reasons, but their performance across the board is far more important that a standardized test score. In fact, the most prestigious schools are likely to help find a placement at an equally well known school with less exacting academic standards or a focus on a special interest of the student.
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2old, the schools understandably don’t exact publicize the fact that they counsel kids out or that they use ERB scores as one factor. If you don’t want to take my word for it, I’ll live.
I agree that the schools assist with applying out, but disagree that this isn’t a big deal for the kid and family.
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“I agree that the schools assist with applying out, but disagree that this isn’t a big deal for the kid and family.”
I never said it wasn’t a big deal. Being told that your child doesn’t belong at xyz school is unlikely to be easy even if you have come to that conclusion yourself. I know that elite schools generally do a pretty thorough job of “vetting” their potential students, so counseling them out is less of an issue that you think. Being private gives them the luxury of choosing their students.
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When we make generalizations about class size, we assume that one size fits all. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I first started teaching, I taught French in homogeneous classes. Class sizes averaged about 33 students. While it would have allowed for greater student interaction with a lower class register, it was manageable, and many students met with success. After my master’s degree, I taught ESL to very poor, under educated immigrants. My class size was about 18 students, and I sweated bullets every day and went home in a basket. I loved it as well as the wonderful, under educated kids. Most of my kids did well with concentrated instruction and lots of encouragement. I was extremely grateful for my district having the good sense to limit enrollment in the ESL classes. It made a world of difference.
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Virginiasgp, are you claiming that every parent who sits on the board of a private school is stealing money from the other parents by not cutting the teaching staff in half so that class sizes are the same as public schools? Basically those board members ( who also often donate heavily to charter schools) KNOW that small class size is useless but insist on overcharge parents anyway? They are failing to meet their fiduciary duty by wasting money hiring extra teachers and charging parents who are overpaying by up to $20,000 a year for no value? I wonder what happens when they are sued for approving such overcharging? I am sure the plaintiffs will be thrilled that you agree that board members of private schools are wasting tuition dollars. Shocking!! And a failure of their fiduciary duty, according to virginiasgp.l
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Excellent reduction of virginiasgp’s drivel.
In Ohio, apparently, the only charter school sponsor that has better than an abysmal record, is Fordham. What happens when the oligarchs pull their funding from Fordham?
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Why am I responding to such a totally inane statement as “First, class sizes have almost insignificant effects.”
Ever taught in a public school, Brian?
Someone take me out back and shoot me!
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This is not a very good analogy. Not everyone age 6-17 plays football. Public schools deal with the completely untalented in some cases. To teach them football might require a small class no matter who teaches it.
Yes, I can put a lot of kids with just one teacher. Just try conferencing with 40 kids who cannot write or just reading their work. On the other hand if they all write well to begin with, I might have very little need of conferencing. We just polish things up a bit.
At one school, we programmed the 36 kids who needed polishing in one class and the 320 who needed assistance writing a sentence in smaller classes. Reality.
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No need to make this point because virginiasgp has already made it clear that he believes private school boards are overcharging their students by tens of thousands of dollars for small classes that are a huge waste of money. Since many of those rich board members probably support the privatization movement that virginiasgp loves so much, I am sure virginiasgp thinks those private school parents are either being fooled by those board members? Are they corrupt, virginiasgp or just ill- informed?
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Virginia, it is a myth that previous immigrant groups learned English more quickly than current immigrant groups, and it insinuates that these immigrant groups are somehow less intelligent. Please stop your racist comments.
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Virginiasgp does not know that Italian immigrants were subject to enormous prejudice, like Mexicans and other Latinos today. Italians didn’t know English, they were considered slow and put in remedial classes and held back.
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virginiasgp and Tim,
A fixation on K-12 student test performance, which at best, indirectly links to national productivity, is symptomatic of the thinking of idiot savants, when faced with the dire consequences of concentrated national wealth. (The 6 Walton heirs have the same wealth as a combined 42% of Americans!).
Why don’t you channel the same vigor to accountability of the U.S. financial sector, which DIRECTLY, drags down GDP? And why, when the Titanic of job creation is the disproportionate allocation of resources to the financial sector and concentrated wealth, are you playing in the school sandboxes?
It’s possible that students in poverty, will stay in school to endure 266% more tests than their suburban counterparts. And, it’s possible that oddly-constructed tests can end up with scoring outcomes to meet capriciously determined thresholds. But, to what point?
“Reformers” plotting to make a buck off of poor kids, wouldn’t have anything to do with it, would it?
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Contrary to what you point out, most of those are educators and researchers who are very much capable of quantitative and scientific methods. They are way ahead of pseudo-reformers and people like you who pretend to be a STEM expert.
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Opt out is the only legitimate course of action when laws are backing students and teachers into a corner. It is also the only way to get the attention of the governor who is determined to sell off schools to charter chains. As my mother always said,”You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” The same applies to students, You can force them to sit for a test, but you can’t actually force him to take it.
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Here’s a link about “ethics” and opting out. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203318069151826&set=gm.1064488526895579&type=1&theater
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Thanks for the link- an application of the correct meaning of the word ethical.
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Can someone sane give me a rough idea of Leonie Haimson’s status as an expert on the issue of class size? I believe, it’s pretty high up there, is it not?
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Why, yes it is!
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Okay, thank you.
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How does 11:46 pm come after 12:48 pm?
Certainly one of the mysteries of the universe!
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What should parents so when their elementary school-age children come home every night with homework that consists of printouts of worksheets Common Core-aligned exercises that are essentially test-prep? As a parent, do I have a duty to opt my child out of this soul-crushing and anxiety-inducing B.S.? Do I even have the right it do it?
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Cuomo says he’s all for parents’ rights regarding opting out and doubts there will be penalties brought by the feds.
http://news.wbfo.org/post/opt-out-trend-unlikley-be-penalized#stream/0
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I’m talking about opting out of homework.
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I see. Grey area for now, I’d say. If it’s just for a relatively short period I think it’s one of those ‘first it’s between you and the teacher, then you and the principal, and then it’s the superintendent, and so on’.
Tell your kids they are testing a broken system. Anything that stresses them inordinately they can mark F and move on.
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