Jan Resseger: Trust The Teacher to Tell You How Your Child Is Doing, Not Big Data

24 Comments Post your own or leave a trackback: Trackback URL

1. roy2016dec says:

   February 16, 2021 at 11:30 am

   Unfortunately, this stance of ‘don’t trust big data’ begins to veer into the zone of ‘don’t trust science.’ Is that where we want to be? I hope not. I think what is needed is an accommodation between the two. It is more difficult to achieve than either/or thinking, for sure. But ultimately it is a space we need to learn to work in. In this space, the perspectives of teachers, counselors, and other school staff IS essential and should be taken up by policy makers along with the ‘hard data’ of traditional research. Equally important, educators should be given support for engaging in classroom-based and school-based practitioner research. Regards. Lonnie Rowell

   Reply
   • bethree5 says:

     February 16, 2021 at 1:10 pm

     There is a place for summative standardized testing: it provides a rough thumbnail of how school systems compare between states or across regions, which is one piece needed to guide national policy. It need not be administered every year, nor does everyone need to take it; a carefully-gauged representative sample will do fine. This is how it was always used in US prior to NCLB. No need to glorify it as “hard” or “scientific,” as though formative assessment was soft and unscientific. Formative assessment throughout the year is (as it has always been) the appropriate tool for determining individual students’ mastery of grade-level concepts and adjusting instruction to suit.

     Reply
     • dianeravitch says:

       February 16, 2021 at 1:20 pm

       The testing you describe is called NAEP. It’s been testing samples of students since 1969-70. I’m not sure what value it is to compare states. But NAEP does it.

     • roy2016dec says:

       February 16, 2021 at 2:14 pm

       Unfortunately, this reply still does not address the larger question of ‘whose knowledge counts and in what context.’

     • Lloyd Lofthouse says:

       February 16, 2021 at 3:57 pm

       “Whose knowledge counts and in what context?”

       Huh??????????????

       That question from roy2016dec, makes no sense.

     • roy2016dec says:

       February 16, 2021 at 4:26 pm

       Don’t know what you mean, Lloyd Lofthouse. Let me reply this way: Do teachers produce knowledge through their work? Many of us working in the area of knowledge democracy believe they do, but it is most often not shared. In other words, it is not just “outside experts” (i.e. university academics) who produce knowledge about what works in education. Also, many of us involved with in-the-field education research recognize the importance of context in asking research questions and setting out to find answers to those questions. In other words, do findings from formal research in inner city classrooms apply equally to the situations found in rural classrooms? What part of what I have written “makes no sense” to you?

     • LeftCoastTeacher says:

       February 16, 2021 at 5:58 pm

       “Knowledge democracy”? That’s a good one! I do not think you know what knowledge is. I certainly do not think you know what democracy is. The reason people do not understand your questions is that your questions do not make sense. You are searching for “what works”. You will never find an answer. There is none. Human neurological development is more complex than you seem to understand.

   • Daedalus says:

     February 16, 2021 at 1:34 pm

     “Data” does not equal “Science”. Sadly, many folks have been trained to confuse the two. This is, in part, because too many teacher such as myself fail to instill an understanding that ‘science’ is nothing more than inductive logic.

     Trying to measure a student’s ‘learning’ is fraught with pitfalls, and as a former teacher I was always aware that my own tests and assessments only allowed me to see the student ‘through a glass, darkly’. For a good book concerning the fallacy underlying ever so many ‘assessments’, try S.J. Gould’s excellent old book, ‘The Mismeasurement of Man’. It’s pertinent to not only the formation of the ‘IQ’ test and, hence, the SAT, but to the general problem of any teacher assessment.

     Teachers can give their opinion, their perspective, about the prospects of a student. This needs to be taken ‘with a grain of salt’. The real job of an educator is to offer what they know, to help students connect a dot or two, and to listen to their students to see if they might be connecting the dots in a different way that’s just as valid. The ‘value’ of the education only becomes apparent 50 years later.

     Reply
     • Susan Lee Schwartz says:

       February 16, 2021 at 6:26 pm

       “The real job of an educator is to offer what they know, ” Exactly! Every one who “teaches” anything — can only offer what they know!

       After 5 decades of teaching children what it is that I know how to do — SKILLS– like thinking clearly,I can add something that was verified by Harvard (when they researched the genuine “Principles of Learning” and I was the NYC cohort for the research) — the only way that anyone can get a kid to learn to do ANYTHING is to motivate them.

       The 2nd principle of learning is REWARDS (for achievement). If the child likes you, and likes what you offer, and is rewarded by getting something of value that they can do, then they learn.

       My 13 yr old kids learned to write, and when those stupid writing tests (the ELA) came to NYC, 3/4 of the kids in NYC failed. My students were third in the STATE– which matters not. They all went to the best high schools and today, many find me on Facebook to tell me what it was that they learned from me. THAT is my reward.

     • Bob Shepherd says:

       February 17, 2021 at 9:47 am

       In the Ed Deform Era, “data” has come to be equivalent to the results from the state standardized tests, which in ELA are completely invalid. Ed Deform has ruined this perfectly good word, “data,” and is pseudoscience–a kind of numerology–not science. And, ofc, it’s led, in ELA, to a dramatic devolution of curricula and pedagogy to make it test preppy.

   • SomeDAM Poet says:

     February 16, 2021 at 8:39 pm

     Bid data is not equivalent to science.

     In fact a lot of people doing big data “analysis” have no clue what science is.

     If you don’t believe me, read what Cathy O’Neil has to say about VAM and other “big data” algorithms. She wrote a book called Weapons of math Destruction that details the ways “big data” is misused and even abused in decide!y unscientific ways.

     A lot of the people involved don’t even know how to do proper statistical analysis.

     They are essentially cranks pretending to be scientists.

     Reply
     • SomeDAM Poet says:

       February 16, 2021 at 8:42 pm

       And incidentally, as someone who was educated in physics, I know enough statistics to recognize that a lot of these people either don’t know what the hell they are doing or are up to no good if they do.

     • SomeDAM Poet says:

       February 16, 2021 at 8:46 pm

       People like Raj Chetty are utterly clueless about basic statistics.

       Study: Stop-and-Frisk Increased Dropout Rate

     • SomeDAM Poet says:

       February 17, 2021 at 7:19 am

       And a lot of the big data collection and “analysis” that sre being done with regard to covid related school safety is just junk.

       It is rare that the actual tests used and testing protocols (if there are any) are even described as part of the (fake) “science”.

       It is also rare that the potential biases of the data are highlighted. For example, the data are often collected for schools that are highly skewed with regard to things like ventilation, disinfection, mask wearing and other virus mitigation but conclusions about safety are nonetheless drawn about schools in general.

       Finally, results of covid testing in schools are regularly given without ANY estimated uncertainty and claims regularly made about “positivities” that are far below what can legitimately be claimed based on the accuracies of the tests.

       None of it has anything to do with actual science

       Again it is pretend scientists like economists collecting the data, performing the “analysis” (usually a complete joke) and making the claims.

   • Catherine King says:

     February 17, 2021 at 11:28 am

     Roy2016dec You are right about the tendency to reject science itself because the statisticians have mush for the social or political aspects of their brains, or have sold themselves down the river.

     This is particularly dangerous because “science” is not about any particular data anyway . . . it’s a method that relates directly to developing a critical consciousness, like maintaining an open mind, and not making judgments until and unless you have enough VALID evidence to do so (ahem to all Trump followers).

     The other issues are at least two: (1) statistical sciences differ from classical sciences and then again human sciences which must take account of human development (genetic method), history, and dialectic; and (2) the field of applications in any field can be rife with problems that have nothing to do with the legitimacy of the field/science or its data.

     All of that lends to this: rejecting science as such is the same as taking the road to know-nothing ruin. CBK

     Reply
2. bethree5 says:

   February 16, 2021 at 12:33 pm

   Oops, what happened? I found the blog post here: https://janresseger.wordpress.com/2021/02/12/28602/

   Reply
3. SomeDAM Poet says:

   February 16, 2021 at 1:33 pm

   Maybe they should instead focus on “post loss”, since this one seems to have disappeared.

   Reply
4. Susan Lee Schwartz says:

   February 16, 2021 at 2:17 pm

   It is posted at OpEd news https://www.opednews.com/Quicklink/Big-Data-on-Learning-Loss-in-General_News-Education_Education-Testing_Educational-Crisis_Learning-210216-186.html

   with 2 comments I made: Here is one:
   The testing companies (like Pearson) are making a fortune because people do not know WLLL “What Learning Looks Like” — which was the governing mantra of the New Standards research for which my practice in NYC was a cohort — chosen by Harvard and Pew… because ALL my students learned to write successfully as they proved BY THEIR WRITING PORTFOLIOS.

   Genuine and authentic assessment (note those adjectives folks) is a continuing process that any and all SUCCESSFUL, teachers use to decide what their students have learned and what to do next.

   I used portfolio to assess whether or not my former sixth grade students had learned the skill –to write well enough to move on to 8th grade and to high school. No writing test would tell me what they needed to do next. You don’t give a written test to see if a person can play an instrument, or ride a bike, or ski… PRACTICE does the work, and is visible when the use the SKILL.

   Read often, the Jan Resseger blog or do no miss the Diane Ravitch blogwhere this NYU professor of Education History, and One of Politico’s choice for MOST IMPORTANT AMERICANS, gives you a daily connection to the TRUTH about what is happening to education and our public schools.

   and go to my series here at OEN and discover how the charlatans and privateers are destroying public education.

   Read my Article: “BAMBOOZLE THEM” where teacher evaluation is the key to reform |

   Don’t be bamboozled by the movement of the EDUCATIONAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
   greatschoolwars.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/eic-oct_11.pdfto create an uneducated, ignorant citizenry! People who cannot tell truth from lies, as January 6 and the last election proved.

   If our children can be kept from learning what they need to be successful, the rich elites will have a permanent community of’ serfs’ to do the work for them — while their kids can go to the top schools..

   Submitted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 6:37:52 PM

   Reply
5. Susan Lee Schwartz says:

   February 16, 2021 at 2:18 pm

   Here is a link to BamboozleThem : https://www.opednews.com/articles/BAMBOOZLE-THEM-where-tea-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-110524-511.html

   and to all mysteries at Oped
   https://www.opednews.com/author/series/author40790.html

   Reply
6. roy2016dec says:

   February 16, 2021 at 2:23 pm

   Well said, Daedalus. Two other worthy sources for consideration: Gene Glass’s Fertilizer, Pills and Magnetic Strips: The Fate of Public Education in America (2008); Kathy Emery and Susan Ohanian’s Why is Corporate America Bashing Our Public Schools? (2004).

   Reply
7. Daedalus says:

   February 16, 2021 at 3:16 pm

   Thanks for the tip, roy. The Glass book sounds like it’s right up my alley. I’ve just ordered it.

   Reply
8. GregB says:

   February 16, 2021 at 11:19 pm

   Shorter Jan: Trust your teachers, that’s why they were hired. Late last year I came across a “story” on my school board’s meeting (they are the poster children who refute the idea that democratically elected school boards matter) that a member had to approve a book a teacher wanted to use in her English class. Prompted me to write this. Wanted to write that he was an a$$h#le, but decided to try to be diplomatic: https://www.akron.com/articles/fairlawn-reader-questions-control-over-teachers/

   Reply
   • speduktr says:

     February 17, 2021 at 12:00 am

     Probably a smart decision, Greg. I have a feeling they wouldn’t have published your letter. 🙂

     Reply
9. Clarity says:

   February 17, 2021 at 8:18 pm

   EdTech: Where public funds flow in private equity pockets.
   FUND books and libraries full of books. Books will save billions, produce better student outcomes and prevent private equity from acquiring or brokering our public schools along with our students data.

   Reply