Robert Pondiscio works at the conservative Thomas B. Fordham Institute, which authorizes charter schools in Ohio. He left a career in journalism to teach, then worked for E.D. Hirsch’s Core Knowledge Foundation, and is soon to publish a book explaining the success of Eva Moskowitz’s controversial Success Academy charter chain. In this article called “No Apologies for No-Excuses Charter Schools,” Pondiscio explains his view that such schools are highly successful and should be celebrated.
He notes with dismay that even spokespersons for the charter industry are backing away from the no-excuses model.
He writes:
The phrase “no excuses” was coined 20 years ago to describe an optimistic movement and mindset that insisted there must be no excuses for adult failure. This coincided with the charter movement’s highest level of moral authority and public prestige, but that was no coincidence. When it first gained traction as a brand, a school model, and a rallying cry, “no excuses” signaled the non-negotiable belief that the root cause of educational failure and black-white achievement gaps was not poverty, not parents, not children, and above all not race. It was the belief that failing schools were the source of the problem and that great schools could be the solution—provided, of course, that everyone associated with them refused to tolerate or excuse failure.
Schools that embraced the “no excuses” mantra and mindset shared standard features such as longer instructional days, data-driven instruction, school uniforms, insistence on proper classroom behavior, an embrace of testing and accountability, and an unshakable commitment to get all students to and through college—features that remain in place in many charters (and other successful schools) today…
The sight of black and brown children required to “track the speaker” in class, or passing through hallways in straight lines, routinely brings complaints from both progressive educators and political progressives that high-performing schools teach only compliance and perpetuate the “school to prison pipeline”—a critique that deserves the strongest rebuke. Students in high-performing charters are not on their way to prison. They’re on their way to college. If all you see is teachers imposing their will on children, compliance for compliance sake, rather than a determined effort to create the school culture and classroom conditions—attention, focus, and affirmation—that make learning possible, you’ve missed the point entirely.
The reluctance to defend the no excuses culture validates the common criticism that these schools are harsh and militaristic. Yet caring support for students is essential to the success of no excuses schools. “One thing I consistently found was that no-excuses discipline failed if it was not combined with the sure knowledge on a student’s part that teachers cared deeply about them and their education,” said David Whitman, who wrote a seminal book in 2008 on no excuses schools, Sweating the Small Stuff: Inner-City Schools and the New Paternalism. “There had to be a caring connection between teacher and student for strict discipline to work, or what I described as a kind of benign paternalism,” he told me. SEL enthusiasts take note: tough love is not an oxymoron.
Wonks may love research and data, but narrative wins hearts and minds. The general impulse—that a safe, well-run, and orderly school is a precondition to academic excellence—has not changed in a generation and remains very popular with parents who continue to swell urban charter waitlists. The mindset that it is (or ought to be) morally unacceptable to allow low-income kids and children of color to be failed by adults and the institutions we build for their ostensible benefit, is no less valid or resonant today than it was two decades ago. What “no excuses” got right—and it’s still right—is that learning cannot occur in chaos. High expectations are essential and non-negotiable. “No excuses” meant exactly that: If kids are failing, we are failing. These are ideals that don’t need an apology.
They need a revival.
Questions: are no-excuses charters a rebirth, as David Whitman put it, of paternalism? Are they a form of colonialism? How do the young white TFA teachers learn to administer discipline that they themselves never experienced? Do black and brown students require a different kind of discipline than white students? If every black and brown child went to a school run by Eva Moskowitz would that solve the huge economic gaps between the races? What happens to the majority of students (“scholars”) who don’t make it through the 12th year of no-excuses schooling?

If these folks could stop and really understand what the “success” they are talking about actually means, they would stop, apologize and excuse themselves as they leave.
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Diane, it’s not about race; it’s about class. I attended public schools in a mostly white, working-class part of New England. Classes were very often chaotic there too –mostly because of lower class white kids’ behaviors. My parents pulled me out of a “failing” all-white mill town public school in 5th grade and sent me to private school for a few years; however some of my siblings suffered through the very rough 6-8th grades at that school.
I would say, yes, very often, kids from lower-class backgrounds DO need a different type of discipline. They DO exhibit more behaviors that militate against learning and need to be checked.
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Kids in poverty (from “low class backgrounds” doesn’t sound right) need integration, small classes, and experienced teachers, not punishment.
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Yes–2 words–SMALL classes.
“Class size matters!”
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And this is the crux of the issue. To the reformists, class size doesn’t matter. They have the meaningless data to “prove” it.
But, of course, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to produce Model-T Fords, an assembly line is dandy. If you want to produce a beautiful human, it requires the delicate brush strokes of loving teachers, who know and care deeply for every student.
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Some of the most uncooperative and difficult students I have taught were in very small classes (less than 10). Small class size as a panacea for counterproductive behaviors is yet another myth propagated by those who have not taught in such schools.
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Rage: I will trade your 10 student classes for my classes of 40 or higher any day of the week. I can work with a student with challenging behaviors in classes that size. Take mine–and then tell me that class size doesn’t matter.
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I’m gonna disagree with you. Classroom management and discipline are 2 different things. Chaos can be a good learning experience sometimes when good classroom management is in place. The kids in grades 5-8 are going through incredible changes hormonally, physically, mentally and they are constantly in a state of chaos within themselves. Strict discipline will backfire for this age group and cause rebellion….and more chaos, while good management will lead to student/teacher respect and a better learning experience for all. I look at grades 5-8 as the years that teachers need to manage more social issues through reading and social studies, while also trying to throw some science and math into the mix. I’m NOT advocating for the SEL du jour of the ed deform world, but honest discussion and monitored debate among teens is a good thing to management behavior.
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Lisa,
In my experience, middle school kids are quite capable of sitting quietly and listening and learning. I know this is considered child abuse these days, but I don’t care. Most of the kids like it. And they learn a lot, pace the apostles of “progressive” education like Nelson and Kohn who are simply wrong. Which is not to say I don’t loosen things up fairly often and allow kids to do activities where they wander around the room, create skits, play games, etc. But I believe every teacher should be given the tools, whatever they may be, to insure her students can, when necessary, sit, listen, learn and not talk out of turn. That’s a sine qua non of real education.
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Thanks for pairing me with Alfie. And we’re not wrong. Sitting still and listening is not particularly good education. It is neurobiological and psychological fact, not conventional wisdom or propaganda. If you read my book (present or past tense “read”) then come back and argue.
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Success Academy might as well make the school uniforms orange jumpsuits, since the students have to march to class in silence on a painted line with their hands behind their back. No student should be punished for leaning on an elbow in class. The rules at Success Academy are beyond excessive. That level of suppression of basic freedoms is unacceptable and completely unnecessary for good instruction. It’s supposed to be a school, not a forced labor camp. What’s next, shackles? Whipping? Taping their mouths shut?
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Sorry Ponderosa, again I will disagree. Yes, there are some kids who like to sit quietly and learn, but learning in a public school is a social interaction between ALL students and teachers. I do agree that teens should be capable of sitting quietly when asked to do so, but this doesn’t require strict discipline day in, day out. It seems like you like those quiet kids because they will sit and soak up what you teach “at” them and it makes your job easier at the end of the day. Teaching is hard. Many kids need discussion and social stimulation/interaction in order to really learn. Sit down, shut up and do your packet of common core drivel (test prep) so that our school can get good test scores is not the kind of education that I want for my children or for others…..and it creates unruly kids that feel disrespected and will act out in return. When one signs up for the military, they know that they are going to basic training and it will be HELL, but ALL kids are made to get an education and does it have to be a living hell in order to learn some ABC’s and 123’s?
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Lisa,
I don’t ask kids to do packets of Common Core prep. I agree that’s bad teaching.
You say many kids need discussion and social stimulation in order to learn. You are not alone in saying this: it is one of the most heavily used cliches in the education world these days. It is the current groupthink. I simply do not find it to be true. If anything, the opposite seems true: social stimulation is often the enemy of academic learning. To learn about say, a Shakespeare sonnet, kids need to stop socializing for a while. They need to take their minds off of other kids –an almost-impossible task for many middle schoolers. Why, why, why is listening so disparaged? When did Americans turn against listening? And yet we fetishize reading. But what is reading but “listening” to human voice translated into a text? Reading is listening just without the animating presence of a live, interactive human being.
One thing I learned (from “listening” to a human voice translated into a text, BTW) is that for eons West African kids learned by listening to a griot transmit important cultural knowledge orally. Do you think the griot allowed students to talk over her? Do you think West African kids were stultified by this “terrible” teaching practice? Do you think these griots would have benefitted from a degree from Teachers College?
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Ponderosa …..I took my 2nd out of public school because of common core and it’s impact on teaching and the behavior changes of the children. My 2nd’s MS was a disaster of bad behavior because these children were treated like cattle to produce a score on a test and the way they wanted it was for the kids to sit down, shut up and do the task of the day (ELA was the worst). Child #2 was becoming a behavior problem . He goes to a private boys school that we pay for and this year was the first time that he has ever come home talking about how much he liked school and his teachers. They read Oedipus in class as a class and had lively discussions and acting sessions to get through it. As an 8th grader (in public school) he read Frankenstein in class (no discussion) and at home (close reading) but didn’t even realize that the monster was created in chapter 4 when they were on chapter 8….. How is that any good for any kid? Learning is social for most kids and they need that interaction and they need teachers that are willing to be “actors on the stage” every day. If you want kids to learn and stay interested, then the teachers need to be interesting and caring. Teachers Wanted….content deliverers need not apply.
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“Why, why, why is listening so disparaged?”
Listening to whom??? For you, it’s all one way. Kids have to shut up and listen to the teacher as if the teacher holds all the world’s wisdom. Why does a teacher necessarily know more about, say, the impact of a poem, than anyone else in the room? Especially if the poet and the students are, say, black and the teacher is, say, white. Then maybe it’s the teacher who should shut up and listen to the students, no? Even if race is not an issue, what is your beef with students being able to interact with material they learn, rather than just silently absorbing it? Research shows that the former leads to far better retention than the latter.
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Lisa,
I don’t think we’re disagreeing.
I am vehemently against Common Core. It’s stultifying. It reduces the experience of literature to fodder for obtuse test-prep questions.
And, perhaps I was unclear: I am not against discussion. But I am for times when discussion needs to stop and kids need to just listen. I’ll bet your son in private school does a fair amount of listening to those teachers he likes. You might ask him. All of my favorite teachers were teachers I loved listening to. I don’t like to brag on this blog (though in the wake of Dienne77’s acid words, perhaps I should start doing more of it) but I am one of the most popular teachers in my school. I think one big reason is that I eschew the conventional guide-at-the-side approach. I ran into a former student at a pizza shop the other day: “I really liked your class!” At an IEP meeting last year, when I introduced myself the mom said, “You’re the only teacher he likes”. I’ve been described as a “real” teacher by one of my students; implying that, in his opinion, the non-sage-on-the-stage teachers he’d had didn’t seem like real teachers. Before kids can have any meaningful discussion or skit-creation or whatever, they need to understand the material. That’s where I come in. For a difficult poem, I project it on the overhead and walk kids through it making sure each line is clear to them. They prefer this to my marooning them in groups and having to figure it out themselves. Once they understand the poem, THEN we can discuss it. Same with a historical event: I deliver the facts first (in an engaging way, with lots of visuals and some interaction) and then the kids do something with that knowledge. Would you rather learn about the Civil War by sitting and listening to a Ken Burns documentary or days and days of group work with your peers and a pile of texts? When you call Verizon with a problem do you want live human service, or a referral to a help website? Kids appreciate the live human explainer, rather than having to go figure it out armed with just a text and their brain. The latter is the orthodoxy these days. They say this is better for kids –the struggle, the grappling, strengthens their brains. But research actually shows that it doesn’t. It’s a misguided orthodoxy. Direct instruction is good for kids and kids like it when done well. Which is not to say that that’s ALL kids should experience in school, but I think it deserves pride of place as it did among the West Africans.
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We don’t need perfect silence to teach. You mentioned Shakespeare’s sonnets. I teach Shakespearean sonnets each fall as my first lesson because it hooks so many on poetry. I like to use Sonnet 130 because it makes students think about body image, a painfully important issue to adolescents. Thanks to one of my past student teachers for giving me many of the following ideas: I don’t lecture the class about what Sonnet 130 means. That would be boring, not memorable, and therefore as meaningless as test prep. I give them a list of Shakespearean language insults and let them make up jokes about me and each other. I show them magazine advertisements and we have group discussions about whether what matters about a person is skin deep like the ads suggest. They translate the sonnet into modern English and they read and compare the translations to and with each other. They write their own sonnets after I briefly explain English and Italian sonnet structures and iambic pentameter. Every year, the students’ sonnets are mostly, without my telling them to be, about loving people’s souls instead of their bodies. I’d say that’s a pretty effective lesson. And I’m not the one doing the talking; they are. It works well with students being raised at every income level in the nitty gritty city.
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LCT:
I’m glad that approach works for you and your students. You say explaining the poem to students would be “boring”. That hasn’t been my experience. This is Daisy Christodoulou describing watching her mentor teacher teach a poem:
“I can remember the first lesson of hers I observed. It was a lesson on Dulce et Decorum Est with a year 9 class (grade 10). She led the class through it brilliantly. But that was it – it was a teacher-led lesson. She was describing and explaining what was happening, telling them about the First World War, explaining what certain words meant and the role of Latin in public schools in the early 20th century. It was great and they loved it. But it would never have got a good inspection outcome, and I hadn’t had any training or any help in trying to set up lessons like that.”
There can be joy in listening and learning.
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Agreed
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Lisa,
I also agree that Common Core breeds bad behavior. The biggest behavior problems are my school are in the Common Core math and ELA classes. I’m grateful that Common Core does not encompass history, my subject.
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Ponderosa…..My son does have to listen and sit still when he is in school. It’s certainly not a free for all. He doesn’t mind it because it varies with every class and every teacher, every day…..and that’s the beauty of it. He enjoys school so much now that he doesn’t realize how much he learns. The point is that No Excuses Charter schools are nothing but prison or the military for poor and/or black/brown children. They are not allowed to think and discuss, they are not allowed to socialize and laugh, they are not allowed to experience joy in learning….they need to shut up, sit still and do the test prep for the day in the way that is presented by the “teacher”. I don’t want that for my kids and I don’t think it’s right to do that to other people’s children. The only thing that these charter schools are doing is making a large portion of children hate school, hate teachers and hate learning. What does that get us?……more kids dropping out of school, more kids angry (and that’s a disaster when you add a gun!), and more adults continuing down the path of poverty (or worse, prison). Let’s just be nice to ALL the kids…it doesn’t take much to offer them a little respect and love while their being taught.
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Lisa,
You may be right that the No Excuses schools are making kids hate school –I really don’t know. It’s an empirical question that I’d love to have evidence about. On the other hand, as you note, many kids are hating the conventional “Lots of Excuses” school these days, and there’s no iron discipline there –far from it. What makes them hate these schools is the Common Core standards mixed with constructivist guide-at-the-side pedagogy, IMHO.
And for the record, I’m not defending KIPP and Success per se, just the principle that negative consequences are often necessary and not by definition abusive, and that having kids listen without speaking is an absolutely defensible educational practice.
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Ponderosa wrote, “conventional ‘Lots of Excuses’ school these days, and there’s no iron discipline there – far from it.”
Ponderosa, do you know how those alleged conventional “lots of excuses” schools got that way if they really exist?
I doubt that you know what led to this state of alleged affairs.
This is what I know: The majority of teachers did NOT do it.
And competent, professional administrators did NOT cause this to happen.
Who caused our alleged “conventional-lots-of-excuses” schools to get that way?
Parents, voters, state legislators, the media demonizing public school that was suspending too many of their students for repeated disruptive behavior, and governors and maybe that whole movement was financed by Bill Gates, the Koch brothers and their manipulating, subversive ALEC machine, and the Wal-Mart, union hating Walton family.
I am alleging that the privatize-the-public-school-movement (the led to the corporate charter school industry replacing public schools) was behind stripping the ability of public school teachers to manage their classrooms through public pressure and legislation at the state level.
When public schools suspend what is considered high ratios of students, the media howls for teacher blood. When corporate character schools do the same thing but in higher ratios, most of the media ignores it — not even a whisper.
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Not saying students should never listen to a teacher explain concepts or contexts. But I am saying that if the students start “talking over” the teacher, there have to be and are other ways of reaching them than punishing them into submission. It takes years of experience to find alternatives and see which ones work. And sometimes, things just don’t work. It’s challenging, no doubt about it. I’m just saying there’s more than one way to skin a cat. — What an odd saying that is, by the way. Why would anyone want to skin a cat?
English is weird. Great language, but weird. And speaking of England, golf is weird too. Golf balls are like eggs: They’re white, they’re round, they’re sold by the dozen, and a week later you have to buy more. Teaching is like playing golf: There is no such thing as perfect. There is no perfect golf swing, not even for Tiger. Even a hole in one is made with a little skill and a little chance. If you can’t accept not being in control of everything, try fishing instead. Okay bad example, but good segue. Two golfers are on a fairway overlooking a river. One sees someone fishing in a little boat and says, “Look at that idiot fishing in the rain.”
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Lloyd, you may mean “charter” schools.
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Harlan, I have no idea what you are referring to with “Lloyd, you may mean ‘charter’ schools.”
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Ponderosa, how do you get to know the students if you only talk to them and they sit silently?
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You ‘hit the nail on the head’, by stating I apologize beforehand to those who will state a retaliatory remark of my lack of political correctness. LisaM, if you are not a teacher you should be. By the way TEACHERS should be the highest paid profession.
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I’m not sure we can settle this disagreement, or even need to try. Sorry Steve neurobiology and psychology can give us only suggestions based on stats, still-very-minimal understanding of human brain, & inferences from animal studies — not definitive statements on best pedagogy for all. Successful classroom social interchange resulting in optimum learning is very much a function of the individual humans (students, and – especially – teacher). They can suggest, e.g., that lecture-style will not easily be accommodated by most students, but cannot exclude the possibility that some teachers [I expect Ponderosa is one] are so gifted at the prep, timing, & performance-ability reqd, they will succeed at it, even w/the least statistically-likely students. I say this as one who watched it happen daily in my first hisch assnt, via a history-teaching colleague w/those gifts. [I had the same students, but had to do it my way]. And again, w/a geology teacher whose classes were wildly successful at my 3 sons’ hisch [& count them among the “unlikely”: he was one of their fave teachers & they learned a lot from him].
The attempt to standardize pedagogy is a fool’s errand. As Rage notes, even the sacrosanct “small classes” work for some, not for others. Examples:
–My [early] hisch teaching experience was in a private academy, where French classes ranged from 12-18. The smallest classes could be systematically derailed by one bad actor w/a clique following, requiring some sophisticated psychological maneuvering by teacher (of which only some are capable).
–Likewise in my current 20-yr experience as a PreK Spanish special, tiny classes are problematic: kids that age need the support of a decent-sized peer-group to get the courage to sing or speak. You pretty much have to radically re-invent the curriculum for smaller groups – & again, only the most experienced/ creative teachers can make that happen.
I’m going to say it again! The attempt to standardize pedagogy is a fool’s errand. The only thing to standardize is “what do I want these kids to be able to do by year’s end?” It’s a curriculum goal. And even then, those goals/ expectations will be modified to an extent by the varied backgrounds of those fresh September faces. The pedagogy[/ies] that gets the teacher from Sept to June has to be left to the professional teacher. Train them in every pedagogy known: provide them w/a big toolkit. Any attempt to standardize it for all [teachers, & students] is by definition dehumanizing, subtracts tools from the teacher toolkit, narrows curriculum, diminishes learning potential for all students.
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What is hisch?
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Mate,
High school
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Uhh. Thx. 🙂
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I have to speak up against the classist (and, really, racist) arguments by Ponderosa and Pondisco that simply by virtue of being poor, and of color, that students exihibit more “difficult” behaviors and therefore need “different” discipline.
Treating all students, regardless of color or poverty status, as human beings, capable of good behavior and of learning, gets schools and classrooms a lot further than strict rules and frequent punishment. I have taught in at risk schools for 16 years. I know whereof I speak.
Ponderosa, for the record, I do not think you are racist or classicst. But the arguments are. .
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TOW:
You make a good point: ALL teenagers, regardless of class, have the capacity to engender chaos in schools. All teenagers, regardless of class, need discipline, and you’re right that high SES schools need discipline too. But do you really think the generalization that lower SES kids are less likely to “play school” well is false? In the tracked public high school I attended, low and mixed-track (mostly white) classes were often chaotic; the honors-level track (certainly not all white) was misbehavior free.
You, and Steve, and others here speak as if just being nice to kids is all that’s required. Love is the answer. If only this lovely simple answer were so! Love is part of the equation, but negative consequences must be too. Kids are not demons, but they’re not angels either. They’re humans. Giving them discipline is acknowledging their non-angelic side. Treating them as if they’re angels, not humans, is just as dehumanizing as treating them as demons. Classists demonize the lower class; leftists angelize them.
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What I have talked about works great in my classroom, Ponderosa, so YES, I am saying it works.
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This is an important point, TOW. To what DO you attribute the different behaviors if not race or class? My suspicion is that the cause is abuse, neglect, trauma, that is to say emotional. Or it might just be intelligence, as in the old fashioned IQ test. What do you think?
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Harlan: ” Or it might just be intelligence, as in the old fashioned IQ test. ”
How horrible to suggest that blacks are innately lacking in intelligence. I’d like to think that sort of barbarism has been overtaken by intelligent thoughts on the matter.
………………………………………………….
Stresses of poverty may impair learning ability in young children…National Institutes of Health
The stresses of poverty — such as crowded conditions, financial worry, and lack of adequate child care — lead to impaired learning ability in children from impoverished backgrounds, according to a theory by a researcher funded by the National Institutes of Health. The theory is based on several years of studies matching stress hormone levels to behavioral and school readiness test results in young children from impoverished backgrounds.
Further, the theory holds, finding ways to reduce stress in the home and school environment could improve children’s well being and allow them to be more successful academically.
High levels of stress hormones influence the developing circuitry of children’s brains, inhibiting such higher cognitive functions such as planning, impulse and emotional control, and attention. Known collectively as executive functions, these mental abilities are important for academic success…
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/stresses-poverty-may-impair-learning-ability-young-children#.XT1rN86rC24.gmail
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Sure, trauma is part of the issue, Harlan. As are the ludicrious class sizes I have to deal with, because kids will do anything to get attention when they need it.
But IQ???? NEVER! I’m not a eugenicist. IQ is NOT science.
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TOW: Ponderosa is not Pondiscio. Pondiscio is not even a teacher!
RE: classroom setting: kids need rules and consistency. So do adults, for that matter. What you seem to be missing is that each teacher does this in his/ her own way, & there’s no magic formula, because each teacher comes at it from their own background/ personality, carrying their own individual bag of tricks. Don’t try to tell me you run your classes sans rules & just build the airplane while it’s in flight, cuz I don’t believe it. You, too, have your way of working consistently with your students. If you didn’t there’d be no respect and no buy-in. It’s absurd to call Ponderosa racist (and classist) because he’s found a way to connect w/students built on stricter adherence to rules – how do you know that doesn’t actually work for him & his students?
We need to keep in mind that midsch & hisch students are (or should be) exposed to a wide spectrum of pedagogies/ methods/ teaacher-leader personalities, & that’s a good thing. It gives them a chance to size up how things work in the world they meet post-grad. Standardization is for birds.
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It’s only become “about class” because the wealthy elite have come to realize they can significantly increase their earnings if they can treat more people in ways similar to how they have been treating black people in this country. Poverty is a tool. Its use is becoming more widespread. Charter schools, no excuses, and teaching like a champion at the very least won’t help. At the very worst they are additional tools to make things worse.
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Probably not.
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Integration helps a lot with students’ anti-social behavior, and I am not just talking about black students. Many of my ELLs were from very poor, chaotic countries. They lacked what we would call appropriate social skills. In addition to working with students on this issue in the ESL classroom, it helped that they also spent part of the day in the mainstream class. It helped them understand more pro-social, normative behavior. They got to see how middle class students behave in class. Behavior is a much bigger issue when students do not have appropriate role models as when the whole school is poor and chaotic.
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I have told this story before about one of my special ed students, so I won’t repeat the whole thing. She was a handful! It took the influence of higher performing kids and the concerted efforts of all her teachers to turn her around. When she was placed in a class where the expectations were higher and her peers were clear what they expected; she changed. She wanted their approval. The same kind of thing played out on the basketball team. Her team mates would not put up with her out of bounds behavior because it hurt the whole team. She was a good athlete and wanted to be part of that scene, so she reined herself in. The modeling was key. The adult influence came into play in letting her know that we knew she was capable of much higher level work. We never gave up.
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It’s called the “peer effect,” and it often works unless a child is deeply troubled.
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OMG, your contempt for poor (“lower class”!) people is beyond belief! For the record, since in your world “anecdote” = “data”, in my experience, the rich kids cause vastly more problems than poor kids, it’s just that no one does anything about it since the rich kids are often charming about it and definitely connected. No poor kid in my school could have gotten away with a tenth of what the rich kids did openly and brazenly because they knew they could.
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“in my experience, the rich kids cause vastly more problems than poor kids”
I agree with dienne77 on the previous statement. Rich kids with helicopter, snowplow, or tiger parents are almost always the worst and they can do a lot of damage. Even school boards fear them so good teachers often get crushed and destroyed to keep those loud-mouthed rich parents happy and off the backs of school boards and admin-animals.
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BTW, I like how you blithely pretend there’s no link between race and “class”. So how is it that, per capita, blacks are far more impoverished than whites? I guess blacks just really are inferior? Or do you think there may be structural and overt racist forces that keep blacks among the “low class”?
I’ll disagree with TOW on one point: you are both racist and classist.
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“you are both racist and classist.”
It’s time for you to STFU. One can disagree without this crap.
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Personal name calling has no place here, bitch. (Do you get the point?)
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Harlan,
I agree with you here. It’s better to debate issues, not to stoop to name-calling.
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And, finally, if I’ve read your posts correctly, I believe you work in a “low-class” (high poverty) school? If that’s correct, I’m begging you to quit. Your contempt for your students (all but the quiet and obedient few) is palpable and toxic and causing harm to every student you encounter (including those quiet and obedient ones).
Please go join the military where people for unfathomable reasons sign up to be abused Maybe you could be a drill sergeant or something where you could legitimately expect people to obey you without question and never do anything out of turn. Of course, you might find that it’s awfully hard to make drill sergeant – you’ll have to earn it by being that “disciplined” and subservient yourself.
But please leave those innocent, already traumatized and chaotic kids alone if you’re not willing to make any effort to see the world through their eyes, which, by your own posts, you are not.
Sorry to be harsh, but the last thing poor and minority kids who’ve already gotten the short end of life’s stick need is contempt from privileged white people like you, especially in the guise of what’s good for them.
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dienne if you see this, I can’t tell which “you” you’re referring to – thread format too hard to follow.
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Robert Ponsiscio is a segregationist, he is a paternalistic bigot who wants black children treated like prisoners instead of like young people, and he is not going to apologize. Ponsisco will continue to call for funding to be drained from schools most black students attend to pay for huge executive salaries and low wage, inexperienced, poorly treated, temp teachers, which is like waving a Confederate flag in Harlem, but he’s not going to ever say “excuse me” and stop. No excusing. All the racial sensitivity of Donald Trump and the rest of the Republicans.
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Robert Pondiscio is not “a segregationist, [or] a paternalistic bigot who wants black children treated like prisoners instead of like young people”
He simply understands the level of chaos and disorder found in many inner city schools. He understands that student behaviors in these schools produce stressful classroom dynamics that can make learning nearly impossible. And he views the no-excuses charter option as a viable alternative for parents who feel the same. He does fail to take the side of public education policy which promises to offer opportunity to all, forced to ignore chronically disruptive behaviors that negatively affect the majority of students.
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so….a slick marketing maneuver on his part.
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Gigantic classes and few resources do not help inner city schools at all. Many of the these students are trauma victims that require lots of support and attention. Inner city students should be in small classes with supports.
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What Pondiscio fails to take into account is that the “level of chaos and disorder found in many inner city schools” is a direct result of the way we run our society: huge rich-poor gap, poor w/”choices” like single-parent families/ 3-gigs to make rent/ the criminal path – all squeezed into ghettoes with underfunded schools. No-excuses charter schools being one of the piss-poor alternatives folks like him dream up & support as a mini-bandaid on open wound.
yuh – it IS racist &/or classist. Recognizing that would be a start toward turning one’s eyes to needed change.
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The charter school argument unfortunately pits parents against public policy. No one can blame the parents for wanting the best for their children. Affluent white parents who live in cities do the very same by choosing toney private schools instead of the public option.
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I think that is part of the privatization agenda. If we make the public schools unbearable, parents will seek out another option. That is one of the undercurrents of all the disinvestment. We have the money to fund public schools, but politicians are refusing to deploy it and invest in public schools.
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A non-theological Amen to that!
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“It’s part of the evil genius of the pro-charter zillionaires that they have found a way, yet again, to pit one group of relatively poor people of color against another group of relatively poor people of color, in order to advance their zillionaire interests.”
— Michael Kohlhaas
http://michaelkohlhaas.org/wp/2019/03/24/baldwin-hills-elementary-school-parents-present-resolution-to-west-adams-neighborhood-council-declaring-school-a-charter-free-zone-co-locating-privatizers-from-new-los-angeles-charter-scho/
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The blogger Michael Kohlhaas is relatively new to the whole corporate ed. reform phenomenon, so it’s interesting to hears his outsider’s opinion of how corporate ed. reformer have pitted groups against each other.
For a newcomer, Kohlhaas hits the nail on the head while he tries to consider the testimony of charter school parents defending their kids school’s right to invade a pre-existing traditional public school campus. Kohlhaas is careful not to demonize either them or the points they’re trying to make.
However, in spite of his compassion for charter schools parents’ point of view, Kohlhaas concludes that, nonetheless, those parents are sadly being played by money interests.
It’s this kind of nuance that needs to be communicates to the public at large, and has yet to be.
http://michaelkohlhaas.org/wp/2019/03/24/baldwin-hills-elementary-school-parents-present-resolution-to-west-adams-neighborhood-council-declaring-school-a-charter-free-zone-co-locating-privatizers-from-new-los-angeles-charter-scho/
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MICHAEL KOHLHAAS: (italics mine, JACK)
“Listening to these parents is hard. It complicates the issue immensely. It’s essential. These are parents who want the best for their children and they’ve chosen this charter school, New Los Angeles Elementary, to give it to them.
“And it’s not reasonable, it’s never reasonable, to dismiss what a mother, and they’re mostly mothers speaking here, decides is best for her child. It’s just not.
“It’s part of the evil genius of the pro-charter zillionaires that they have found a way, yet again, to pit one group of relatively poor people of color against another group of relatively poor people of color, in order to advance their zillionaire interests.
“Obviously zillionaires don’t care at all about anyone whose kids go to their charter schools. They don’t care about the kids. But that doesn’t mean that the charter school isn’t offering the kids something that’s valuable to their parents.
“But this hard fact can’t possibly be enough of a reason not to oppose the co-location, not to oppose the very existence of charter schools. If it were a reason, then the zillionaires have already won, because they can always, will always be able to find people who need something badly, an education, whatever, and who will take what’s offered for the completely incontrovertible reason that they find it best for their child.
“And these parents aren’t dupes, they just have different goals than people who are opposing charters.
“But whatever they think, however right they are, it can’t be a reason for supporting charter schools or even for failing to oppose them. In the long run charter schools will destroy public education.
“But for a parent with a child who needs an education right now looking into the future isn’t always going to be the first priority.”
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Jack,
Spot on!!! Thank you for posting this.
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No, it’s not a parallel. Urbans who can afford tony private schools have the alternative of moving to suburbs w/good public schools (& higher taxes). Charter families feed at the public trough. The charter v pubsch conflict is precisely as Jack describes below, a way to get the poor/ wkg/ lomid classes tussling over a single pot of public $, thus distracting them from the underfunding of public goods, due to 1% holding the bear’s share of assets.
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“Robert Ponsiscio is a segregationist”?
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Yes. If someone says there should be a separate “academy” for black people because they need harsh discipline, that is a call for segregation. There should be integration instead of no-rights charter schools.
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I just skimmed his article, but I didn’t see him saying that black people should go to separate schools because they need harsh discipline.
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Have you seen any pictures of Success Academy students?
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Have you read about Success Academy’s methods?
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LeftCoastTeacher,
I agree that it is certainly hard to imagine the integrated school FLERP! is imagining that Pondiscio supports where African-American students get harsh discipline and white students are treated the same as they would be treated in any good suburban public school.
Maybe I am missing something about how Pondiscio’s belief in the ncessity of treating African American children harshly could be done in integrated schools where Pondiscio understands that white students do not need to track eyes at all time and march in rows and learn to blow air bubbles.
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Does Robert Pondiscio have kids? If so what kind of schooling do they have? (or have they had) If it’s different from what he recommends here, then why the difference?
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His daughters go or have gone to very expensive private schools in Manhattan.
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Then my obvious follow up question (not that you are obligated to answer) is why can’t “under-privileged” kids have the same kind of education as his own kids?
Just applying the Golden Rule.
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Because the golden rule doesn’t apply to “us folks”….only to those that deserve it by way of wealth and social status.
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Where did your kids go, Steve? Grandkids?
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My children went to public schools in a diverse suburb of Cleveland. They both went to public universities. My older granddaughter went to a public/independent school in Vermont. My younger granddaughter goes to a public elementary school.
I went to public school.
Thanks for asking.
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Thanks for answering.
So none of the Nelson clan was forced to choose between a disorderly, chaotic, or dangerous inner city school and a free, no-excuses charter option.
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Well, that’s one of the benefits of white privilege in a racist, anti-democratic society.
It is not a reason to support abusive charter schools.
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I don’t want Robert to have an excuse to dismiss my comment. It is Brooklyn, not Manhattan.
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“Just applying the Golden Rule.”
Or alternatively to quote the famous line from the movie, When Harry Met Sally, ‘I’ll have what she’s having.’
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I’ve had ugly exchanges with Robert. I miss them, so I’ll give him some bait.
The “no excuses” mantra is condescending and racist. It implies that a measure of tough love is somehow necessary for children who already have it tough enough. The unspoken stipulation is that order cannot exist without strict discipline. This defies all that we know about behavior. Loving attention and patience produce a different kind of “order” that does not require depersonalization or humiliation.
The “no excuses” nonsense accompanies an educational approach which assumes, without a scintilla of evidence, that all children learn and develop in the same ways. They don’t and such programs are not only of limited efficacy, they neglect – often demean – the very qualities that should be nourished, including rebelliousness, individual expression, skepticism, imagination and effusive enthusiasm. As Jonathan Kozol so eloquently expressed, children are not just raw material to be formed into some future productive use.
I have seen, met, and loved strong-willed children who balked at “no excuses” and were brutalized and demeaned. Some kids can and do comply, but compliance is among the least important qualities to nurture in children.
Robert’s comrade in arms Whitney Tilson was once challenged on the tough love, no excuses practices in the schools he has funded and perpetuated. These schools, of course, serve (disserve) mostly students of color. His response: “Because they need it.”
Yes, the children of privileged white men like Pondiscio, Tilson (and Nelson!), deserve well-funded schools with small classes, warm relationships and great opportunities for personal expression and critical thought. But poor children of color “need” rigid structure and lots of negative reinforcement because . . . well, you finish the sentence.
Of course you can force many children to wear little ties and blazers, follow the rules and memorize things so as to get better scores. That’s not education.
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Can you explain why so many black and brown parents agree with Pondiscio? They enroll their children with the full knowledge of a no-excuses approach.
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As Rahm Emmanuel famously stated, “I don’t have to be homeless to understand their needs”.
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Yep, I can.
One, they are left with few alternatives because of the systematic underfunding of public schools, the demeaning of public school teachers, and a multi-million dollar propaganda campaign. It’s rather like defending Donald Trump by pointing out how many people watch Fox News.
Also, many parents don’t know a great deal about child development or the psychological damage that can be done in places that look so shiny, orderly and aspirational.
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So what do you suggest they do? Place their kids in chaotic and even dangerous schools while hoping that more funding will magically change student behaviors?
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Rage, you’re assuming that all schools of poverty and color are “chaotic and even dangerous.” I have taught in a number of schools that are high-poverty and have high numbers of minorities that are NOT as you describe. I maintain, and will continue to maintain, that treating students of all descriptions as capable and worthy of learning and self-control lessens the difficult environments.
And I’ve taught in some pretty difficult schools, including alternative education. There are always a few students who are difficult to reach, of course, but the vast majority of students really respond well to that kind of attitude and environment.
Further, the most chaotic and dangerous school I ever taught in was a high-income area. There was no discipline whatsoever, and we had riots and lock-downs and the whole thing. And this was a middle to upper middle class school where the vast majority of students were white. But they were allowed to get away with anything, and it showed in the treatment of the school and the teachers by the parents, students, and administration.
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Rage-
The alternative is to enable education oligarchs to rob Americans of their most important common good. The alternative is to give up democracy for authoritarianism at the local, state and federal level.
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Maybe I didn’t explain properly. The charter argument/debate has two sides that matter: parents (what’s best for their kids in the here and now) and public policy (what is theoretically best for all children and their parents). No parent who advocates for their child’s educational opportunities can wait for change. Poor parents don’t have the option of shopping for the best school district they can afford. I will never fault any parent who chooses a no-excuses charter option over a dilapidated, disorderly, and underfunded neighborhood school. Put yourself for a moment in their shoes and tell which of the two options you would choose. And remember there is no other choice because you can’t put your child’s life on hold.
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Rage: I understand what you are saying about the conflict between a parent’s need to provide for their children immediately and a citizen’s concern long-term. Parents –I am one– often choose educational opportunities not because they like their choices, but because they cannot do otherwise. There are schools that would crush my timid young daughter, brimming as she is with love of reading. These same schools might be the savior of another student, for education is a very individual thing.
Conservatives famously criticized Obama for his choice of schools for his daughters, but I understand. Being president is not like being me. Every kid is different.
It is for this reason that I accept the idea that school choice is actually the opposite of the phrase. I know one school system that made it a habit of removing students hostile to the climate of a functioning school. Then along came NCLB and they were forced at gunpoint to keep every dysfunctional child in school while other schools skimmed off the functioning students. The school choice model is choice for the few, and restriction for the many. But parents cannot but do what they can.
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Good educational policy would be to offer kids “school choice” within schools, not by creating a smoke screen for mean-spirited charters and privitization.
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I think another part of the issue is that many ‘black & brown’ parents have not been exposed to the kinds of schools that Pondiscio and others provide their own kids. If you don’t know of what alternatives are available, then you might think, ‘no-excuses’ is the way to go for your child’s success.
By the way, a common retort for shutting down this kind of discussion is for someone like Pondiscio to say something like, ‘where we enroll our kids is a personal matter, and we would appreciate you not going there.’
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Some urban public schools offer specialized schools based on interests, talents or needs including magnet schools. Not all students attend the neighborhood public schools. There is some level of choice within the system.
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Yes. Black and brown parents enroll their children in no excuses bc they want to avoid more disruptive peers, large class sizes and fewer resources. And, they think they are getting something that they are not. They are told about graduation rates and college acceptance rates that are gamed.. severely. And they believe that if their child is put in this school it means that their child will be successful. It’s not a vote for no excuses. It’s a vote for a future. If “no excuses” charters were “competing” on a level playing field w fully resourced public schools that were NOT no excuses w extra curricular activities, great campuses, low class size, and expedited removal or discipline for disregulated kids… do you really think they’d be buying No Excuses? Doubtful.
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No excuses charters advertise well. Public schools don’t advertise. Parents believe advertisements.
To put it differently, parents are misled by charter schools—and by the whole reform movement.
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I would also suggest that it’s NOT about what the parents can do. That’s not the right question. They will do what they must. Our conversation should be about how to address self dealing entrepreneurial ed reformers and their billionaire patrons who use parental need to force feed free market philosophy onto the public ed sphere. The question is: What are we going to demand from our policy makers and politicians so that predators can not make use of our kids and injustice in society to turn everything over to them for their benefit?
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“The question is: What are we going to demand from our policy makers and politicians so that predators can not make use of our kids and injustice in society to turn everything over to them for their benefit?”
Forbid false advertisements and reduce the whole volume of ads by, say, 90%. What we buy and do shouldn’t be dictated by ads, but by what we really need.
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RageAgainstTheTestocracy asked:
“Can you explain why so many black and brown parents agree with Pondiscio? They enroll their children with the full knowledge of a no-excuses approach.”
Rage, you asked the wrong question. Can YOU explain why so many of those parents who enrolled their child with full knowledge of a no-excuses approach did not have their child remain in that school?
You think they didn’t like “no excuses” when they tried it? Or is it that “no excuses” has always been about making all kinds of excuses for why a charter school doesn’t have to take any responsibility to teach a kid who struggles to learn but can humiliate and punish him into leaving?
Those excuses involve scapegoating young kindergarten and first grade children for their own failure to learn.
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Half of the children accepted at Success Academy do not enroll.
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Parents do not see the Success video where the teacher screams at the kid. No, what they may get to see this the not-so-obvious class mismanagement as this one
https://greatschoolwars.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/sa_math.mp4
For most teachers, this is horrifying, and math teachers even understand the bullcrap factor involved, but for parents, this may appear simply as a well-disciplined class.
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Those kids are being trained to be robots. They move in unison. I imagine that scene was produced in the best class after many had been eliminated from the school.
What happens to the poor child who DOESN’T get what the teacher is saying? That’s what I’d want to see in the video. This type of propaganda makes parents think, “My child can be that smart and this is the school that can change things around.”
Both the teacher and the ‘speaker’ were young. They’ve bought into this prepackaged ‘cr*p”.
I’m wasn’t a math teacher but I’d worry about the state those kids would be in when they came to music. I always wanted freedom to move and to work creatively. Obviously I’d be the odd woman out. There is NO room for creativity when everyone is a robot. There is a lot of repression and fear of being yelled at.
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“What happens to the poor child who DOESN’T get what the teacher is saying?”
I am not sure there is much to get there. The so called explanation the kid gives to the procedure and which is approved by the whole class in unison with “always works” at the order of the teacher is complete bs. It’s not even wrong.
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Agree re: sch choice w/n schs, Steve Nelson. My 3 boys got very different choices under one roof that served them very well. I had mixed feelings about it, though. Mainly because I knew they would have been toast in an ordinary, less well-off schsys. Few districts can afford to run resource rooms and tiny self-contained classes and a whole alternative project-based program side by side with AP & regular, plus a host of electives and extracurriculars.
Mixed feelings also because I never could buy that segregation by learning-style was the way to deal with differences. There’s a long period where “differents” feel “not as good as.” Ultimately it worked: the ample midsch/ hisch extracurriculars became places where everyone mixed, all types needed to put on shows/ make things/ win games etc – places where kids learn to value other kinds of talents. But my own ’50’s rural ed did a good job for all too, w/o any of those frills. Just very small grade-groups (often more than one to a classroom) with excellent, veteran teachers. Kids learned to work as group and help each other from very young age; draconian sanctions not reqd. Support by community orgs helped it work.
Both alternatives seem hopelessly expensive today. No doubt reflecting hollowing out of middle/ wkg classes.
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Eva Moskowitz, Robert Pondiscio and everyone that thinks like them are no better than the crime lords that run the illegal trafficked global sex industry where children are kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery. Did you know that the average life of a child that works in that illegal industry is only seven years. Most of them are dead before they can reach age 25.
No excuses corporate charter schools are five-day-a-week concentration camps for children that live in poverty. Because they were born into poverty, they must suffer and be beaten and brainwashed into submission.
Why don’t these corrupt, power hunger human monsters just send all children born into poverty to U.S. Marine Corp style boot camps starting on their fifth birthday and keep them there until they reach 18 or are dead?
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I agree that certain behaviors are incompatible with learning. These include several aggressive behaviors, several passive ones, and several that are neither. When we identify aggressive behaviors as incompatible with learning, we damn the kids raised in aggressive environments. Why do we select these behaviors? For the same reason all human beings do things. We are biased in favor of the behaviors we understand, and against those we do not understand.
There are, no doubt, people who thrive in the structure of strictness. Others are crushed like bugs (to borrow a phrase from my daughter). Some teachers are allowed in public schools to use a culture of strictness to teach only one group of students. Using their harsh discipline as a shield against the world, they create a climate many students and their parents avoid. Parents who want their children to get a good education and know there is one to be had in these classes teach their children to persevere so that they can go on to he next level. It happens all the time in every school. Sometimes these teachers are good practioners of their field and have a good reputation. The community tolerates their idiosyncratic nature because they value what they have to give. Often there exists the sense that they do not really do anyone any good and are just using their strictness to avoid behaviors they find difficult to tolerate.
When this happens in a public school, the process has a democratic edge to it. Students who want to play basketball often play despite the harsh coach. When it happens in a private school, it seems to have an autocratic edge to it. Instead of students and their parents choosing to subject themselves to this harshness, they are forced to ask for the privilege of doing so, placing the fate of the child in the hands of an authority who can pick and choose the child rather than the other way around.
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Fordham’s charter school ally, the Center for American Progress, is going to have difficulty spinning Pondiscio’s words.
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Ensure poor children of color full bellies, living wages for their parents, fully funded schools and community resources, affordable and appropriate health care, and retroactive back pay for the wealth this country has accumulated on their backs and ancestors’ backs, and we’ll have so called achievement gaps on their way to being closed by this time next year.
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Word.
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You must be a communist, or a socialist!
😉
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Indeed. Until the underlying poverty is addressed, little progress will be made. Yes, it is true that in some schools the most disruptive students are those of rich helicopter parents–students who have learned that they can get away with anything. I’ve seen this firsthand. But I’ve also seen kids who were SEETHING with anger and resentment related to living lives in which Mama was always sick and scared to death that the rent wasn’t going to be paid; in which the only adult role model around who had a handle on anything was the viscous, violent tough supplying Mama’s drugs; who lived with role models–often random collections of people crammed into a small apartment–who were constantly screaming at one another because their lives were so desperate; kids who were basically feral. This stuff has everything to do with social class and nothing to do with imagined “race,” which I know very well from having taught poor white latchkey kids in a declining factory town. As John Prine put it, “There’s a hole in Daddy’s arm where all the money goes.”
Years ago when I was young and stupid, I moved to Washington to feed for a time at the government trough, and there I enrolled my preschool daughter in a school that had stables with ponies, a professional theatre, a lake and a boathouse, beautiful gardens and paths through these. Imagine picking up that kid out of that aforementioned apartment and placing him or her in such environs, with such advantages! We desperately need to invest in afterschool environments and wraparound services for the poorest children, and in making their schools oases. Here’s the thing: that stuff doesn’t come cheaply. But as Jesse Jackson has always said, it’s cheaper than prison on the other end.
In the town I grew up in, back in the day, there was a Boys and Girls’ Club open every evening and on weekends, and it had a gymnasium and offered classes and crafts and films and games, and there were counselors and coaches always present, and poor kids good go there an play and socialize and learn in a safe environment, and there were enough adults around to ensure that safety. How valuable was this place? Priceless.
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Yeah, I’ve worked with kids whose anger leaked from their pores or whose living conditions were so atrocious, it was almost beyond understanding how they got to school everyday. Teaching students whose basic needs were not being met at times seemed futile, which is probably why a lot of them ended up in special ed classes not unlike mine. One of the advantages of a self-contained class was that I could take the time to build the support systems the kids needed that had nothing to do with the class content. I was horrible at pacing in that regard because we did what was necessary on any one day whether it involved getting through my lesson plan or not.
Why does it seem so hard to provide even the kind of Boys and Girls’ Club environment you had, Bob, now?
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Indeed, yes, Bob.
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“But I’ve also seen kids who were SEETHING with anger and resentment…”
I’ve mentioned that I did subbing in Chicago. The suburbs always had a different schedule and I’d manage to get in some days around Christmas time or when school had ended. It was my ‘second’ income.
I remember one first grade class. These children were having a party and the anger that they showed was, to me, astounding. I hated to think what these children would be like when they became teenagers.
I’ve worked in all black schools in Chicago Heights, IL and never saw this.
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My grandson goes to the Boys and Girls Club in his town, and he loves it. They still do great work in some areas.
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All useful measures, maybe even reparations, but you left out the crucial element, social capital transmitted by parents.
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Desperate parents have a difficult time doing the job properly. We must, as a society, address the underlying inequities.
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I want to say a word about the comment, above, “being nice to kids.” I taught middle school sped (L.D./B.D. Resource)–all the grades–6-8–for 13 (lucky!) years–after teaching Early Childhood SpEd (again, for 13 “lucky” years!). I used to teach, sometimes, depending on what was going on (&, believe me, it was an exercise in “reading” the kids, on a daily, even hourly, basis) w/a “cruel to be kind” philosophy. That having been said (& you’ve read my comments here), it was never too cruel, but it was discipline. When I pulled kids out, & had a class of 5-10 kids (yes–class size matters!!)–I has a “Kids’ Court,” whereby a “judge,” “prosecutor,” “defense lawyer” * jury of peers (if the class was big enough; otherwise, it was the “judge’s” decision) which would hear from the student “offender,” & would come up w/a fitting “punishment.” Wow–did this ever work!!!
W/O becoming too wordy, the “punishments” really did fit the “crime!” (& the “offender” never–not once–committed one again. The principal came in to observe this (I told you I’d always had great principals, & he was the best), & he instituted it for the rest of the school.
I also ran a lot of after school detentions (I felt like giving my peers–who could see up to 150 kids a day) a break, since I had, of course, a much smaller caseload, even though I also helped other kids in classes, like all the other L.D. Resource Teachers. If the detention # was small enough, they could fit into my tiny room, I’d help them w/their homework, &, then, we’d have a “*itch” session, whereby I’d tell the kids to talk about why they’d acted out, what they thought of the teacher(s) who’d sent them to detention (dangerous territory!), & write how they felt on the white or black board (& draw pictures, as well). Of course, this allowed them to let off steam & would, hopefully (it did, in many cases), diffuse some of their anger & frustration, so they could function in classes the following day. It worked.
Finally, I sometimes had to take students (some weren’t even mine–all 3 of us resource teachers were on unofficial “social worker substitute duty”–we had one social worker for 450 students (yes, I know, now social workers are at many schools, & often have a caseload of, say, 3K-?). She might be having sessions or tied up in a meeting (I can tell you, she never took lunch or break–a saint if there ever was one!).
We had a 7th grader who had been–in the past–abused by a neighbor–& he was letting all his anger out just this year. I would take him to my room, let him scream & rage, throw a rubber ball against the walls as hard as he could & then, finally, he would collapse at a desk & just cry his heart out.
I also had a 6th Grade young lady for whom I would load up a desk with papers, & she would knock all the papers off the desk; I would re-place them on the desk, & this would be repeated until she, too, sat down & sobbed.
Yeah, “military” “Success” Academy & KIPP would’ve worked out just great for these kids.
What’s the saying?–“fixing kids is easier than repairing adults.”
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You sound like a wonderful teacher.
There are some traumatized kids that need the sort of TLC you gave them, but they are not the majority of misbehavers. It’s important not to not conflate the misbehaviors of these few traumatized kids with garden-variety kid misbehavior. For the average human —a fortiori for the average child–negative consequences DO work when “being nice” alone does not cut it. That’s why every society ever has issued punishments of one sort or another for law-breaking. To say otherwise is crazy-time utopianism at its worst.
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Oops: only one “not” in Sentence 3.
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Oh, great, now you even know more about another teacher’s kids!
BTW, punishment for law-breaking doesn’t really work, does it? Isn’t that why we have to keep people locked up for so long? And keep locking them up? Ever notice how it’s the same people that seem to cycle through jail/prison? Maybe “consequences” for “bad behavior” only confirm the problem behavior, no?
Have you ever been punished and thanked your punisher for teaching you? Or did the punishment just lead to further problems down the road? Punishment is rooted in power and control – the ultimate ineffective way to handle creatures that are hard-wired for freedom.
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I also have high demands of my students, and my classroom runs quite smoothly. My students do very well on assessments, and their reading and writing drastically improve. I don’t just “be nice” to the kids, and I demand manners and respect of each other. But I also don’t go all “no excuses” on kids, either. It’s not one or the other, you know.
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Agreed. It is possible to have discipline with dignity. It starts with mutual respect. It is difficult to maintain that same level of communication in huge classes with few supports. Volatile students need teachers with compassion, and it is difficult to create that same level of understanding in overcrowded, under resourced schools.
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Would have loved to have had you for a middle school colleague!
That’s the toughest job I ever loved.
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Oh, & one of the best pieces of advice, from a fellow teacher, about middle school/junior high-aged students:
“As big as these kids are, always remember, they’re still children, & treat them as such.”
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This, 100%.
Middle schoolers deserve specialists who get them and love them anyway.
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One word for this sickness: Behaviorism, and Taylorism.
Well, that’s two words. Sorry.
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Ed: Pardon my ignorance (& it may be really ignorant because, perhaps, as an educator I should be familiar w/”Taylorism” {& not Liz!}). However, may be a senior lapse. That having been said, could you explain who Taylor is/the term? Thanks!!
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I did a Google search for Taylorism and found this:
“the principles or practice of scientific management. … Scientific management is a theory of management that analyzes and synthesizes workflows. Its main objective is improving economic efficiency, especially labor productivity. It was one of the earliest attempts to apply science to the engineering of processes and to management.”
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Taylorism+
In other words, Taylorism is a “THEORY” and probably not the best method to apply labor productivity.
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Frederick Taylor was the father of scientific management. He was loathed by labor. Congress passed a law (at a time when workers who create GDP lived in an American democracy) that prohibited the use of Taylor’s work. Frederick used a stop watch to assign a time that workers must achieve a task. His theory was that workers would get a reward for the productivity gain if the standard was exceeded. Like today, the capital owners took all of the gain.
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Taylor is in my new book
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“Frederick (Taylor) used a stopwatch to assign a time that workers must achieve a task. His theory was that workers would get a reward for the productivity gain if the standard was exceeded.”
This sounds exactly like the way workers are treated in Amazon’s warehouses, and when workers can’t keep up with that “stopwatch”, they get fired. I’ve read that Amazon keeps decreasing the time to get things done and if you can’t keep up, you get fired.
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“Continuous improvement” has as its stated objective the removal of resources so that the worker is forced to produce more with less.
It is the process that has enabled the providers of capital (often debt) to widen income inequality while dragging down GDP (estimated at a 2% loss).
Concentrated wealth has strangled economic opportunity. Now, DFER’s cannibals have expanded their feeding to the workers’ Main Street schools, the workers’ community taxes and, the school resources allocated for the workers’ children.
“Scientific management” is the tool Bill Gates employs in his education policy. Claims, otherwise are merely PR packaging. It is somewhat evident in terminology such as, “quality seats” which conveys the dehumanization of labors’ children.
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Linda, indeed, let’s not get taken in by “scientific management” dressed in “continuous improvement” now by Bill Gates. And let’s never associate it with Deming’s teaching of “continual improvement.” Two very similar sounding terms having very different meaning and extraordinarily different effects in practice. The former promotes Taylorism riding on behaviorism, requiring educators and students to only do, to comply and perform without failure or suffer the consequences–“no excuses.” The latter promotes advancement of educators and students learning from and of each other all the while aiming to honor, preserve, and develop students’ inborn dignity and human qualities, unlike “no excuses” that attacks such human qualities and excusing the attacking behavior by naming it “tough love” or something like that.
Well, Atlanta’s systemically massive test cheating scandal resulted from Beverly Hall’s tough love for especially schoolhouse administrators practiced as “continuous improvement” but presented as business-styled Balanced Score Cards full of targets. Hall demanded educators achieve the targets, continuously, or get fired.
Retiredbutmissthekids, you might stick a toe in this…
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Ed-
The “sickness” is bigger. At the website, AWrenchintheGears.com we can read about the plotting of organizations like Ann E. Casey Foundation, United Way and Aspen.
The following is from the Surgo Foundation, “STiR and Surgo have established a strategic partnership with the goal of integrating data and behavioral science approaches into StiR education programming and strategies across the globe.”
The co-founder of Surgo has “held several roles at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation”.
The Gates are anti-democracy.
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I would have been humiliated by a teacher who yells in this manner at a student in front of the whole class. I can still remember when my second grade teacher told me privately, as she bent down while I was sitting my my seat, that I could do better on a project. I can see the large blue stars and how I wasn’t arranging them correctly.
………………………..
At Success Academy School, a Stumble in Math and a Teacher’s Anger on Video
Feb. 12, 2016
At Success Academy, the charter school network in New York City, current and former educators say the quest for high scores drives some of them over the line.
In the video, a first-grade class sits cross-legged in a circle on a brightly colored rug. One of the girls has been asked to explain to the class how she solved a math problem, but she has gotten confused.
She begins to count: “One… two…” Then she pauses and looks at the teacher.
The teacher takes the girl’s paper and rips it in half. “Go to the calm-down chair and sit,” she orders the girl, her voice rising sharply.
“There’s nothing that infuriates me more than when you don’t do what’s on your paper,” she says, as the girl retreats.
The teacher in the video, Charlotte Dial, works at a Success Academy charter school in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn. She has been considered so effective that the network promoted her last year to being a model teacher, who helps train her colleagues…
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I’ll see if the video link copies. [The last time I tried a video link like this it didn’t work.]
In 2014, an assistant teacher at Success Academy Cobble Hill secretly filmed her colleague, Charlotte Dial, scolding one of her students after the young girl failed to answer a question correctly. The children’s faces have been blurred and their names obscured to protect their privacy.
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Well, that didn’t copy well. It was a full article from the NYT.
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I think it bears repeating over and over again that this was NOT some kind of aberration.
This is the story of the video: The assistant teacher in the room was watching Success Academy’s model teacher day after day demonstrating the methods that got her recognized and honored by the network.
The assistant teacher felt something was wrong, but all her questions to Success Academy administrators and other teachers were dismissed and she was told that she was the one who didn’t understand how to properly teach students the way model teacher Charlotte Dial did.
Finally, the assistant teacher decided she needed to know if she was being gaslighted by the Success Academy network or not. So she decided to videotape the actions that she had been witnessing so other people outside of the network could see if they were as benign and wonderful as she was being told they were by Success Academy staff.
When she showed other people — it may have been one of her parents or other relatives — she learned that indeed Success Academy was trying to gaslight her by telling her that what she was seeing was perfect teaching and there was nothing wrong with it.
The fact that Eva Moskowitz claimed this was an anomaly is outrageous and for the media to even report that smacks of the same kind of enabling reporting they did when Trump blatantly lied and they treated his lies as “here is one side, here is the other, you decide since both sides are equally plausible.”
We are supposed to believe that an assistant teacher was out to get this perfect model teacher and sat with her phone just waiting for the one time all year that model teacher Charlotte Dial did something that was not the Success Academy approved teaching method.
That is absurd. Clearly the only reason an assistant teacher would take the chance of surreptitiously videotaping is because she had witnessed this behavior over and over and been told in no uncertain terms that is was perfect and she was the one who was a bad teacher for not embracing that.
That assistant teacher did not get lucky and catch Dial during the one time all year that this happened.
That assistant teacher videotaped the regular methods that model teachers like Charlotte Dial are taught to use. She videotaped those methods because she was being told by Success Academy that they were wonderful and she wanted to know if her perception of how awful they were was correct or not.
The fact that the entire public recognized how awful they were speaks volumes. Those are methods that are intentionally designed to humiliate and punish struggling students so that their parents pull them from the school.
But it seems that Pondiscio would say that the child “needed” to be treated that way.
Pondiscio can’t deny that Charlotte Dial was a model teacher. He can’t deny that she did what she did. I’m guessing he embraces the absurd lie that Dial was perfect all other times and the assistant teacher was just laying in wait to catch her doing something that is not the Success Academy-approved way for model teachers to teach. Poppycock. It is clear that treating struggling learners that way is exactly what model teachers get honored for doing.
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Thanks for all the info. on Taylor. & I look forward to reading about him in your new book, Diane.
That having been said, there are a few school experiences that made me want to become a teacher:
#1–The loving, excellent, wonderful, GREAT teachers I had (I was lucky enough to go to suburban public schools in the late 50s & throughout the 60s (while I lived in a home where there were plenty of overwhelming problems {dire financials; father in a coma &, after he came out, was too sick & lost his business–was diagnosed w/MS; mother w/various medical problems, etc.): before my parents got sick, I was taught to come home from school & do my homework–w/my older sister–at the kitchen table, & this became part of our M.O., even after my parents weren’t there to ask us to do it) &–
#2–The mean (yes!), impatient teacher who, in 3rd Grade, yelled at me in front of the whole class because I hadn’t memorized the times tables (I’d been home for at least a week w/German Measles, & my parents didn’t make us do homework/work sent home when we were sick). I can never forget that she called me “Stupid!” in front of the whole class. I hated Math after that, & only found that I loved Algebra when I was teaching middle school & worked with the wonderful Math teachers there (I became a Math whiz very quickly!)
Also, my 1st Grade teacher had been a nun, & she thought she was teaching in a Catholic school rather than a public one. She rapped kids knuckles w/a ruler, stuffed an eraser in a boy’s mouth (who had been talking), put another boy in a garbage can for losing a puzzle piece–! (it wasn’t a tall one, it was one of those old ones that would come up to, say, your 1st grade knees {nevertheless…}), & she would say, “I’ve had it up to here w/you kids!” then proceeded to knock over a pile of books she had stacked on a shelving unit.
She was fired either before the year ended or at the end of the year.
But–not to end with that–there were so many, many, many more great teachers who inspired me, & so many stories. Thank you to all my wonderful public school teachers, all of whom, I’m sure, would never have taught in a “no-excuses” school like Success or KIPP.
&–BTW–there are NO excuses for people like Eva & that KIPP director in Chicago (who was fired for nefarious reasons) to even be working in the field of education.
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Isn’t it interesting that even the suburban public schools had their monster teachers and yet we still feel lucky if we got to attend these schools? A good school was a different animal back then; a lot of what was done would not make the cut today. I do remember that if you spoke without raising your hand you took your life in your hands, or at least it felt that way. Standards of behavior were not that far off the “no excuses” brand of today.
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The Kochs and the other libertarians believe that tax dollars should be spent on only on the military and police, so on organizations that defend their fortune. We can read
The study, which utilized demographic data collected by the Defense Department, found that of the 167,000 enlisted women in the military, 31 percent are black, which is twice their percentage in the civilian female population. Black men represent about 16 percent of the male enlisted population, which is proportionally equal in the civilian population.
In contrast, white women represent 53 percent of women in the military, while accounting for 78 percent of the civilian female population.
This means, black girls should receive militaristic education in public schools to prepare them for an honorable service in the military. It’s just logical libertarian thinking.
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Our wars have long been fought by poor people, which also happens to mean, in this country, brown people. Recent stats from Pew:
As the country has become more racially and ethnically diverse, so has the U.S. military. Racial and ethnic minority groups made up 40% of Defense Department active-duty military in 2015, up from 25% in 1990. (In 2015, 44% of all Americans ages 18 to 44 were racial or ethnic minorities.)
In the same year, blacks made up 17% of the DOD active-duty military – somewhat higher than their share of the U.S. population ages 18 to 44 (13%). Blacks have consistently been represented in greater shares among enlisted personnel (19% in 2015) than among the commissioned officers (9%). The share of the active-duty force that is Hispanic has risen rapidly in recent decades. In 2015, 12% of all active-duty personnel were Hispanic, three times the share in 1980.
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Baltimore, Maryland is the target of Trump’s current race baiting, which immediately followed Fox’s negative coverage of the city.
Unrelated-
Chester Finn who founded the conservative Fordham Institute (Non-Partisan Education Review detailed the Institute’s funding chronology) is a member of the Maryland State Board of Education.
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Your president and mine is quite the multi-tasker, even though he only shows up for work about four hours each day. For example, not only is he locking up children in concentration camps, he is also cutting food stamps so that more children, across the nation, will go hungry.
Parasitic wasp larvae have a more highly developed moral sense than does the occupant of the Whiter House.
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Trump is a blood-sucking malaria-carrying Mosquitoe. WHO estimated that in every 30 seconds a child dies due to malaria and 500 million cases of malaria reported every year.
Trump is envious of the real mosquitoe and wants to beat it at its own game.
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A general observation about the GOP as a whole-
Trump emboldened lower class, white nationalists to express their racist views overtly.
Trump emboldened the professional class to promote their schemes, couched in thinly veiled racist terms.
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In Pondiscio’s linked article at EdWeek, he references papers created by CREDO.
Mother Crusader (12-7-2012) has a brief synopsis of (1) the funders of CREDO which were identified as the Waltons and Pearson…. and (2) CREDO’s links to the Hoover Institute where the husband of CREDO’s Director is affiliated (Fordham’s founder, Chester Finn, is also at Hoover.)
Mother Crusader reported about the reluctance of the Director of CREDO to identify funders…(seriously)
Based on Stanford’s products like the affiliated SIEPRE (Institute for the Evisceration of People’s Retirement) and the Stanford Social Innovation Review, democracy lacks a pillar at the university (or, is the institution more aptly labeled a think tank?).
The founder of Theranos got her start there and so did the founder of 4 major Gates-funded ed organizations.
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CREDO’s Director is Margaret Raymond. Her husband is economist Eric Hanushek, who has testified in court hearings against additional funding for schools.
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I also flinch when I read a mindless reference to CREDO’s favorite metric “days of learning” lost or gained.
“Days of learning” is a statistical fiction having absolutely no connection to the length of a school year (in days, hours, minutes) OR the allocations of time for instruction OR the difference between allocated time and actual learning…. OR the fact that students encounter instruction in more subjects than math and ELA. This fiction is one of Eric Hanushek’s favorite stats which CREDO’s Director, Margaret Raymond, dare not dispute.
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The plan of the Academic Capture Warning System which UnKochMyCampus.org is developing is to expose the subversion of
university academic independence.
Here’s a great idea, Mr. and Mrs. Big Data, Bill and Melinda, can give some of the funding they provide to CAP and to Fordham, to UnKoch.
Last night, 60 Minutes interviewed a billionaire who warned against the threat of concentrated wealth and he said Bill Gates agrees with him. Evidently, billionaires have a sense of humor. Gates lives in the state with the most regressive tax system in the nation. The poor pay a rate up to 7 times higher than the rich in the state of Washington.
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Linda, which Billionaire was on 60 Minutes?
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He’s Ray Dalio of the investment firm, Bridgewater Associates. My take is he wants visibility and credit for his do-gooding. Like a lot of billionaire’s wives, his has self-appointed to improve schools. They are both into big brother data, the usual buzz words, “scalable”.
While he didn’t mention democracy, I presume he thinks he’s democratic because employees are told to rate him and each other in real time and with visibility to all. Employee turnover at the firm is 30% in the first couple of years of employment.
Like the Chan-Zuck’s, they target public schools. There’s a good critique by Connecticut Public Radio (David Desroches, 4-16-2019).
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” I presume he thinks he’s democratic because employees are told to rate him ”
The International School of Kuala Lumpur also asked us teachers, the last few years that I worked there, to ‘rate’ the principal and superintendent. Most of us lied or didn’t turn in anything.
They both were awful people and since there was no job security the ratings meant nothing. Fear does wonders in making those at the top better than they are. We were afraid that since the rating work was done online that the authors of bad comments would be fired.
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This reminds me of the “democratic” election process in Hungary under Communism: 99.9% of the people voted, and 99.9% voted for the president to be reelected. Sounds fantastic, except it was mandatory to vote and there was only one candidate.
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My understanding is that the Dalio family of Connecticut abandoned charter schools and instead supports the public schools where 90% of kids are and tries to help them meet their needs.
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Yep, Carol.
And, the fact that the concern isn’t on Ray’s radar makes him like any other among the clueless, entitled elite.
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Glad to hear the Dalio’s abandoned charter schools. They had an opportunity to say so while appearing on 60 minutes. We all know that the media, Obama and DeVos’ Depts. of Ed., deform groups like Fordham, state depts. of ed, etc. deliberately mislead by referring to charter schools as “public”. Dalio could have set the record straight when he and his wife had a national audience but, that wasn’t their agenda.
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Charter schools don’t seem to know that the world changes rapidly, and that we human beings need to do the same to make our lives work well in a new era. Those are the facts that most charter schools and their supporters refuse to recognize, and the results are not positive for their students or teachers. Such expectations as overly long school days, data driven instruction, school uniforms, and walking through hallways in straight lines have no meaning or value for students who are living in a different world. Demanding those actions from them does not improve their learning or increase their chances of being accepted by a good college. How much better their learning would be if charter schools began to operate in a more realistic and humane manor.
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The purpose of charter schools is to enrich the managers and owners?
Ohioans have been fleeced out of an estimated $1 bil. by charter operators and the state appears to have little interest in recovery of funds which may relate to the campaign contributions of charters to Ohio’s politicians.
Adding to the problem, a large number of Congressional members have former TFA’s as legislative aids. Politico recently wrote about TFA as an “arm of charter schools”.
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The article about TFA as an arm of charter world was in ProPublica
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Network charter school are followers of WEB Du Bois’ “talented tenth” philosophy, recruit the students with highest social mobility, in effect, segregating schools by academic talent. Charter schools are effectively tools of segregation and supporters of charter a reincarnation of the segregationists of the Deeo South
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Thanks, Peter. Talented tenth philosophy leaves everyone else worse off
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Eugenics was Du Bois’ motive for the “Talented Tenth,” I recently learned. And the “brown bag test” applied.
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Extrapolating on Pondiscio’s prescription, success is the result of “attention, focus and affirmation”. Based on the advancement of Chester Finn in the description of Fordham’s rise, there was something much more important? (NonPartisan Education Review)
Pres. Obama would have been poor if his grandparents hadn’t stepped in. Did he need a no excuses school?
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“Attention and focus”, the privileged, marginal student who got $1 mil. from his father at graduation, who had his dad’s contacts, and who was subsequently elected President of the U.S. has neither.
Back to the drawing board, Robert.
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Children are being affected by lead based paint inside their schools. Districts don’t have the money to inspect this problem and it is affecting the brains of students.
……………
Lead-Based Paint Found in Half of All Inspected Schools
With all the emphasis that has been placed on making sure children are safe from the hazards of lead-based paint at home, similar efforts would seem just as important for America’s schools.
After all, outside of the home, young children spend the majority of their day – 6.8 hours a day – at school.
Yet a new federal report found that an estimated 15.2 million children in the U.S. go to schools in school districts that found lead-based paint. This is happening more than 40 years after the United States’ 1978 ban on the use of lead-based paint in housing…
Lead, breathed in or ingested, can affect children’s brain development.
The report, released June 24 by the U.S. Government Accountability Office, highlighted how many school districts – 72% – are not even inspecting their buildings for lead-based paint hazards. The Government Accountability Office restricted its analysis to school districts that had at least one school built before 1978, and those that obtained drinking water from a public water system.
https://truthout.org/articles/lead-based-paint-found-in-half-of-all-inspected-schools/?utm_source=sharebuttons&utm_medium=mashshare&utm_campaign=mashshare
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I am late to this conversation, but there is a big point that is being missed here with regards to Success Academy.
I believe “No excuses” has almost nothing whatsoever to do with this so-called behavioral need that African-American students need that white students do not.
No excuses is the EXCUSE that Success Academy schools (and perhaps other charters) can use when they drum out lower-performing students who are unable to become top-performing scholars when taught by ill-prepared fresh out of college mostly white and middle class teachers who themselves never struggled to learn and are taught that any child who isn’t thriving under Eva Moskowitz’ “one way fits all” method of learning is being “bad” and must therefore be punished.
I don’t believe that many of the people posting here realize that this is about 5, 6 and 7 year old children. Those are the kids most subject to the “no excuses” because by the time they are allowed to reach 3rd grade – the testing years – the students who have problems with learning or behavior are not there. It is 5 year old Kindergarten children and 6 year old first graders who are being labeled violent and suspended multiple times. I don’t think people posting here understand that if a 7 year old at Success Academy is not performing well enough under the inexperienced teacher, he or she is flunked — as many times as necessary – because flunking a student is the easiest way to either 1. prevent him from ever reaching a testing grade and 2. making his parent realize that unless they pull them from the school, their child will continue to be humiliated and punished and held back indefinitely.
Eva Moskowitz takes Kindergarten students who win a lottery. (Attrition spots are filled for first to 4th graders, with the vast majority of low-income African-American students starting in the very lowest grades.) She then requires parents to attend multiple pre-enrollment meetings in which she makes it clear what is required from both the parent and the students. As many as half the lottery winners don’t even enroll after attending those enrollment meetings. The students who actually DO enroll at Success Academy as Kindergarten children may be from low-income families, but they are the low-income families with parents so dedicated to their children’s well-being that they are willing to go the many extra miles to enroll them.
But that is not enough if their child is not able to thrive in a classroom with inexperienced teachers. The fact that so may of these very young children are given suspensions tells you how much they are humiliated into acting out.
Here is what I know — if you take a 5 or 6 year old white student and put him in a classroom where the teacher does nothing but humiliate and harangue him for his learning struggles, you can bet that child will act out. Either directed at someone else or inward at himself. It has nothing to do with their race, and everything to do with allowing a school free reign to punish and humiliate a very young child for academic struggles beyond their control.
You can’t punish a student into learning but racists like Robert Pondiscio are so certain that it is so hard to find a single African-American child in all of NYC who does well academically that he is certain that it is the punishment that makes them into scholars. That is because the students who do well in NYC public schools without being subject to that harsh punishment for wrong answers are invisible to Pondiscio. Even if there are many tens of thousands of them. Or hundreds of thousands of them.
Success Academy functions as a magnet school for low-income students whose families are willing to do absolutely anything required of them with regard to their child’s learning. (Some parents who enroll don’t realize that what is required of them is to get their child out of the school because the school finds teaching him too much bother. ) The bottom line is that many at-risk families are discouraged from even enrolling their child.
But even with that extra level of selection that any public school would be absolutely thrilled to have, Eva Moskowitz was not satisfied because she did not want any students who would not reflect positively and give her the bragging rights that she seems to be unable to function without. (In that Moskowitz is exactly like Trump — a deeply insecure person who needs complete idolization from her staff and needs to brag nonstop and any child, teacher, or politician who challenges her outrageous boasting is her enemy and she is ruthless at going after them — even releasing private information about a child!)
The kind of debate seen here about “no excuses” and whether it works for kids who are much older distracts from the main issue of HOW Success Academy uses “no excuses” to drum out struggling students.
I suggest everyone again closely watch the video with Success Academy’s “model” teacher — the one who so perfectly demonstrates the practices that Success Academy demands every teacher in their network follow — targets for punishment a student who was behaving perfectly.
This was in one of the schools Eva started opening in affluent neighborhoods where the percentage of at-risk students is quite low compared to the overall percentage of at-risk kids in NYC. The student being targeted clearly wasn’t performing at the academic level that the teacher demanded and the “model” teacher demonstrated on video exactly how model teachers at Success Academy use techniques to humiliate them and punish them. This student behaved perfectly, but I certainly would not blame any 6 or 7 year old subjected to this over and over again if they acted out. Any white student subjected to this would also likely act out, regardless of their family income. But the punishment and humiliation was about academics, not behavior. It’s just that repeated humiliation of a 5 year old for their academic struggles is a good way to get them to act out behaviorally.
Only racists believe that the high percentage of kids acting out in their kindergarten classes at Success Academy is because of the natural violent tendencies of the non-white children, while those of us who actually look at the evidence understand that when a charter is suspending up to 20% of their Kindergarten and first graders, it isn’t because of their race but because the charter can’t teach them and so humiliates them until they act out. The humiliation causes the acting out, as anyone who was less racist than Pondiscio would understand. These are YOUNG children.
I think this fraud will eventually be seen for what it is just like the assistant teacher in the room who surreptitiously videotaped the class of the “model” teacher eventually realized what was wrong.
And the people who realize what is wrong with Success Academy are not advocating for wild west classrooms with no behavioral expectations. They realize that those rules were never about teaching — they were designed to EXCLUDE by a dishonest charter CEO who preferred to blame 5 and 6 year old children for their own failures than admit that she could not teach so many of the truly at-risk students who won her lottery. In that way, Moskowitz and Trump are two of a kind. It’s all about what is best for them, and the dishonesty — and all the children who are harmed by it — does not matter as long as they “win”.
Pondiscio used to honestly say “why shouldn’t charters get to teach only the most motivated students?” Now he clearly got his marching orders to shut up and pretend that Moskowitz has discovered some miracle. Shame on him. I think he will end up like all of Trump’s toadying staff who lie for him and cover for him end up taking the blame for him.
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Eva Moskowitz reminds me of the film “Sleeping with the Enemy,” but Eva isn’t the young woman in the film played by Julia Roberts who faked her own death in an attempt to escape her nightmare of a controlling monster of a husband.
”
The husband in that film was a malignant narcissist and/or a sociopath or psychopath.
Eva is no different than the husband in “Sleeping with the Enemy” but her victims are five and six-year-old children.
“Who Are the Perpetrators of Child Abuse?” ANSWER: People like Eva Moskowitz
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/somatic-psychology/201105/who-are-the-perpetrators-child-abuse
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“caring support for students is essential to the success of no excuses schools… no-excuses discipline failed if it was not combined with the sure knowledge on a student’s part that teachers cared deeply about them and their education…”
While true in a sense, this is a naive, even stupid statement in the context of promoting school policy. People who can pull this off are extremely rare. Go seek among teachers, parents, social workers – find me the ones who can implement a very strict disciplinary code—the kind of code designed to protect vulnerable children from being drawn into delinquent street culture, via unquestioning response—while simultaneously eliciting complete trust via pure love—because that’s what that requires. Pure, unselfish love such as one may encounter from certain nuns– from people who’ve had a tough upbringing but managed to convert hard-earned life lessons into non-angry, positive inspiration– from gifted outliers. I’ve been privileged to know maybe 4 people like that in 70 yrs.
99% of us are faulty humans. Take ordinary young adults and require them to implement ‘no-excuses’ policy via handbooks or PD sessions: they can’t get this right. They will feel licensed to treat children with anger or cold disapproval whenever they’re tired or frustrated; they’ll channel whoever treated them badly because they haven’t yet digested that they deserved better.
I can’t tell you how many PreK teachers I’ve encountered like this in my travels in free-lance PreK enrichment. The PreK world—particularly the commercial chains that cater to low-SES families– is peppered with minimally trained folks who conduct class the way they were raised/ raised their kids, & a lot of it ain’t pretty– & these are not even “no-excuses school” teachers. I shudder to think of that cohort translated to primary-level charters w/instructions to march kids around silently, sit w/hands folded etc.
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Pondiscio ends his column this way:
“‘No excuses’ meant exactly that: If kids are failing, we are failing…”
Pondiscio is so tone deaf and does not even recognize the blatant hypocrisy in what he just wrote.
Kids “fail” all the time in “no excuses” schools. They are counseled out. They are put on got to go lists. Their parents don’t get renewal slips sent home with them for next year. They are flunked — the nice word charters use on the rare times that they are ever forced to talk about this is “retention”. The “no excuses” charters that “retain” kids in great numbers blame the kids! They don’t blame the ineptitude of charters’ inexperienced teachers or the one way their curriculum tells them all kids will learn. Charters have every excuse in the book when it comes to the kids who the flunk or who disappear — the only people who are never to blame are the charter CEOs and their overpaid administrators.
Pondiscio only has to read the comments to his column to see that no one else with any integrity believes the lie he is promoting anymore. Everyone else knows that the no excuses are only superior to the other charters because they shed their lowest performing students with far more ruthlessness and with no concern whatsoever about what happens to them.
When Pondiscio publishes his toadying book praising no excuses, he is going to cement his reputation for being the lapdog of Eva Moskowitz. And like we saw with other sycophants of Trump, I’m guessing Pondiscio will be thrown under the bus just like all the struggling students are when his usefulness to the no excuses charter movement’s billionaire funders is over. And he won’t even have his integrity left.
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I saw complaints on Twitter that I had allowed readers to call Robert Pondiscio a racist and a segregationist. One person on Twitter said I should block all such comments or stop allowing any comments at all.
I responded that I block foul language but I don’t censor opinion.
Long-time readers know that I block insults directed at me personally, which is my right since its my blog. If you enter my capacious living room, you play by my rules. When commenters say the same thing over and over and over, I give them a warning. If they continue, they go into moderation. If readers become obnoxious, they go into moderation. Moderation means I review comments before they are posted.
If readers are sincerely persuaded that something said or done is racist, they say so. I think Trump’s attacks on people of color are racist. That’s my opinion. Some don’t agree. I have a right to my opinion. And you have a right to yours.
I don’t think Pondiscio is racist. I know him. But I do think he is wrong. As I said in the post, I think that no-excuses schools specifically for children of color is a colonialist project. That’s my opinion. You can express yours too.
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Thank you.
I think someone can believe they are not racist while espousing views that demonstrate that they have internalized racist views. Most of us do that unwittingly. But when called out on something they said or wrote, people who aren’t racist try to examine closely what they wrote to try to figure out if indeed they might have made assumptions that were “colonialist”. When someone simply denies that anything they wrote had any assumptions they would not have made about middle class white students, that speaks for itself. When someone turns on people calling out writing that has racist implications instead of trying to closely examine what it is they are saying, that speaks for itself.
I would love to get Pondiscio’s answer to the following question:
In NYC anywhere from 25% to 35% of the African-American and Latinx students in PUBLIC schools are proficient in state tests, despite the fact that they attend underfunded public schools without anywhere near the resources that Success Academy has. Why does Pondiscio ignore their existence and the fact that there are clearly multiple times as many students doing well without no excuses learning as do well with it?
Why would Pondiscio insist that it is no excuses that accounts for those charters’ better test scores when there are so many students doing fine WITHOUT no excuses? We aren’t talking about a handful, but anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 of the most disadvantaged students of color who attend NYC public schools and do well without being treated in the militaristic way that Pondiscio insists they need.
And given that more than 1/3 of white students are not proficient in NYC public schools, why didn’t Pondiscio write that if only those white students were subject to the harsh discipline of Success Academy, they would be guaranteed to be top performing scholars? Why the double standard?
Finally, Pondiscio intentionally ignores attrition rates here. Pondiscio and other people who desperately are trying to make every excuse for the high suspension and attrition rates of the youngest elementary school students in no excuses charters will only compare those no excuses charters’ attrition rates to the attrition rates of the public schools teaching the most challenging students.
But why isn’t Pondiscio looking at the attrition rate of other CHARTERS that are not “no excuses” and comparing that attrition rate to the no excuses charters?
it is interesting that “no excuses” charters have higher attrition rates than the charters that are not “no excuses”. Pondiscio can’t explain that except by some frankly racist innuendo that African-American parents would be far more likely to leave the highest performing charter network in the state than a mediocre charter simply because those parents don’t appreciate good schools when they are given this once in a lifetime opportunity. Pondiscio would rather blame African-American parents — implying that they would pull their child from a top performing no excuses charter more frequently than from a mediocre charter because they just don’t want their kid in this wonderful school where Pondiscio knows that their kind of child (but not his) needs to thrive.
And here is something you should ask Robert Pondiscio that he seems to want everyone to forget.
In January, 2016, Reason did an interview with Pondiscio. Here is a quote:
“”I have no problem at all with charters functioning as a poor man’s private school,” says Robert Pondiscio, who’s a vice president at the education think tank the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, who adds that private schools boot kids all the time.”
A few years ago Pondiscio told the truth because there were ugly stories of the way that charter treated the kids they could label “disruptive” (like that child who didn’t know the right answer and was punished and humiliated).
Pondiscio could not deny how those kids were treated, so he started saying why not let charters be like PRIVATE schools so they don’t have to teach them.
I want to know why Pondiscio is now singing a new tune as the rest of the country has started to recognize exactly what he stated clearly in 2016, that these no excuses push out kids they don’t want to teach.
Charters that push out low performing kids will ALWAYS have better results than charters that do not push out low performing kids. That is why so many people in the charter movement are questioning them instead of doing what Pondiscio is now doing and insisting that these top results are because children of color NEED harsh discipline to do well.
If Pondiscio is unwilling to look at how racist that innuendo is, then how can he get mad when people believe he must be racist himself?
I repeat — anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 of the African-American and Latinx students in NYC public schools are proficient on state tests. For Pondiscio to write something that implies that students of color need no excuses charters when those no excuses charters are only willing to teach the students who do well is truly suspect. I don’t know what else to call that kind of writing except racist. You use the word colonialist, but in this case, the colonialists would be deliberately ignoring all the people doing well without their colonial system.
No excuses charters have higher attrition rates than charters that are not no excuses. Pondiscio has no interest in knowing why that is so, but clearly other charters know that his 2016 writing said it all. No excuses are like private schools and teach who they want. And the rest get treated horribly until they leave.
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Fordham’s funding chronology detailed at NonPartisan Education Review is proof that when the richest 0.1% finance an operation, the rules for their hirelings’ success are uniquely tailored.
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Robert and Eva Moskowitz pontificate about criteria for success….but, uh…
Chalkbeat reported in 2018 that Eva’s 19-20 year-old son, a general studies student, stepped into a job teaching economics at Success.
And, of course, Pondiscio is at Fordham Institute. How many Fordham execs are black?
Eva is a graduate of Bloomberg’s Johns-Hopkins (check out the Dept. of Ed’s advisory board) and Trump’s alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania. Both are private and presumably can use legacy and family financial gifts as admission criteria, unlike state universities.
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I am going to post quotes from Robert Pondiscio’s US News opinion article from Nov. 6, 2015, posted at 8:00am. (I will try to post the link in a follow up.)
“Uncomfortable Questions
Why is it “unfair” to give poor families the studious, disruption-free schools the rich take for granted?” by Robert Pondiscio
“My object is not to condemn or praise Eva Moskowitz. But let’s suppose for a moment that the charges are true, that she achieves her extraordinary test scores by “counseling out” the kids least likely to produce such scores. As a thought exercise, consider this awkward bit of calculus: If counseling out some number of unruly, disruptive or hard to teach low-income students enables a school – any school – to bring 25, 50 or even 100 times that number of other students to levels of achievement that “regular” schools have historically proven unable to equal, are you OK with that?”
“One final question, perhaps the most awkward of all: If all this creaming, counseling out and ensuring just the right school and just the right environment is a standard part of American education for so many, why does it become a problem – why does it make national news – only when someone gets caught doing it for poor black and brown kids?”
This op ed from 2015 by Pondiscio was not as offensive as the one linked to above where he is implying that those children NEED “no excuses” to thrive. Pondiscio in late 2015 was recognizing that by excluding the students who were hardest to teach and concentrating only on the ones who are easiest to teach, charters could help those who were easiest to teach, period. Pondiscio made no ugly pronouncements that children of color NEED harsh discipline to succeed.
Pondiscio’s 2015 article did have one serious flaw. Pondiscio justified Success Academy ridding their charters of unwanted students (the ones Pondiscio insists must be “disruptive” because Eva said they were) by using example of PUBLIC school systems where seriously disruptive students were removed from the classroom. But Pondiscio ignores the enormous difference — that those public school systems that removed the students were STILL financially responsible for those students’ education. If they removed a student, they were obligated to pay for a private school — much higher tuition — to teach him.
At no time in the entire 2015 op ed does Pondiscio acknowledge that when a public school system pays an enormous amount of money for a private school placement for a student, that is very different than a charter school telling a parent the child is no longer allowed in their school and someone else should have responsibility for their education because the charter school no longer wants to teach him.
It was beyond outrageous that Pondiscio wanted the public to believe that there is no difference between a charter acting like a private school and telling a student “leave, we don’t want any responsibility for your education anymore” and a public school system which REMAINS financially responsible for that child’s education and may bar a student from a school but would then have the high cost of paying for private tutors.
Success Academy isn’t paying for private tutors for the kids it doesn’t want to teach. Success Academy isn’t paying for private school placement for the students they claim are so incorrigibly violent and disturbed at age 5 or 6 that no public school could ever teach them so why should anyone expect Success Academy to keep those kids?
Nope, no excuses charters simply make up all kinds of excuses for why they don’t want to teach kids that they know they will have no financial responsibility for once they are out of their school. And they are enabled by their cheerleaders like Robert Pondiscio.
Although I do find it odd that Pondiscio — who was criticized back in 2015 by pro-charter folks for actually recognizing the obvious about Success Academy — has now backed away from the truth he recognized in 2015. I’m guessing Pondiscio got his marching orders and now he is mouthing the same tired rhetoric about the miracles that are achieved when African-American students get harsh discipline.
Pondiscio reminds me of the Republicans like Ted Cruz who once were willing to criticize Trump but now realize that their own careers will be more successful if they jump on board the bandwagon to support Trump’s lies and stop calling them out. And we all know that Trump will throw those Republicans under the bus as soon as they stop having any value to him or become more useful as scapegoats to take the blame for him.
Again, I do believe that Pondiscio will be abandoned by the pro-charter forces when he no longer has any value to them or he becomes a useful scapegoat for them. And he will not even have his integrity left when that happens.
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A person working for Fordham or its ally, CAP- integrity?
Read “Corruption Consultants” (July 22, 2019) at CAP, written by Malkie Wall, Danielle Root,…, note the glaring privatization omission, and then, make a case for organizational and individual integrity.
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