This reviewer enjoyed the book and says she learned a lot. But she felt turned off by the tone of some of the comments on the blog. Some are nasty, some are sarcastic. I told her that many readers are frustrated and feel powerless because the tiny elite that now controls education doesn’t listen.
As readers know, I don’t censor comments except for cursing and vendettas. When the tone turns vicious, I block the writer altogether.
Otherwise, join in. We need a place where parents and teachers can speak their minds and exchange ideas and opinions, fears and hopes, while getting the latest news
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Diane Ravitch's blog 
I think the level of discourse in the comments section of this blog is much more civilized than most other places on the internet–look at the comments under most youtube videos, or on a site like Gawker, for instance.
That said, Ms. Gonzalez makes a good point that this community would be more welcoming to newcomers if we strive to refrain from snark and vitriol as much as possible. I, for one, will try to remember that attempts at humor or sarcasm often don’t come across well in a hastily typed comment.
“I think the level of discourse in the comments section of this blog is much more civilized than most other places on the internet”
I know, right.
If the comments here offend you, please stay off the internet!
😉
I’d like to tell this reviewer that I am glad she loved the book (Me too! What a book, Diane!).
But as long as we are not threatening each other’s well being, or cursing, or being acutely, grossly mean, why not let us speak our minds, vent, and join together in the diversity but mostly solidarity of ideas?
So what that we use colorful metaphors. We also use data and facts, rhetoric and philosophy, get instincts and common sense, and our view of morality and justice. We use our experiences as educators in the trenches.
We use our heads, out hearts, and our soul.
We had a vicious labor movement in the 1930’s. We had a violent civil rights movement in the 1960’s. Now are are fighting for public education, public trusts, the middle class, and income redistribution to whittle down income disparities . . . .
These are all part of the growing pains of a still young democracy . . . .
There is ALWAYS hope . . . .
Correction:
” . . . . . gut instincts . . . . ”
I did not mean “get” instincts . . . .
I need to learn how to type!
Robert Rendo: eloquent.
I agree but let me add…
The current times are not kind to those like her: “If you’re anything like me, you shy away from talk of politics, current events, or any kind of legislative issues for two reasons: fear of sounding ignorant, and fear of being attacked.” [click on the link provided in the posting]
So while I do not discount what Ms. Gonzalez writes, there is nothing airy and abstract about the struggle to preserve and improve public education in order to ensure a “better education for all.” Real lives, real hopes, real dreams are at stake in the attempt by the charterites/privatizers to radically socially re-engineer American society.
Let put this a bit in context. You heard of that William Lloyd Garrison fella? And then there’s that Frederick Douglass agitator, not to mention that Harriet something person who is always stealing other people’s property. All shrill and strident and prone to either committing illegal acts or inciting others to do so—haven’t they ever heard of the messy middle where reasonable people meet and work things out? Worse yet might be that Thomas Paine nut who so contemptuously dismisses divine and natural law in human affairs. He shouldn’t be such a hater—not all kings are that bad. And I won’t even mention the names of those unruly denatured women who pretend to the right to vote—since when do such perversions deserve even a moment of our attention?
So—honest, open, heartfelt opinions make people uncomfortable?
Diane Ravitch follows in an admirable American tradition shared by Frederick Douglass:
“Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground.”
“Diane Ravitch’s Blog A site to discuss a better education for all” — a website where there’s a lot of plowing up the ground to prepare for the crop of better education for all.
😎
Beautifully said, KTA!
Thank you Krazy.
Yours is an eloquent post as well.
Believe me when I say I have to restrain myself from using inappropriate language on this blog because some of the issues I write about and some of the posters infuriate me to no end.
There is a Hebrew saying “A bone in my throat”. . . .
That’s how I feel about some views and people here.
However, I find refuge in continuing some very colorful and peppery dialogues, quite bold and saucy, offline at my own private e-mail account, and that has additional cathartic and therapeutic benefits as well . . . .
It’s sort of like “Rendo, Unplugged” . . .
Heat in the kitchen and plow digging are completly par for te course.
If one does not like the heat, then lock yourself in the bathroom or attic and get the crap out of the kitchen.
The American psyche in general does not have enough opposition and confrontation to begin with. But those primordial intelligences are being roused and awakened as more and more people are feeling the sting of the plutocracy out there.
Perhaps we must hit some rock bottoms before we can even think of rising to the top . . . .
As for my offline private notes to various colleagues, all I can say is that potty mouth-dom is a land I am king of and I rule my words as my subjects.
Of course, if the NSA is spying, then what they’ll get is an acute education in the truth about public education and the reform movement . . . . .
Krazy TA, you’re exactly right. To Robert, again, this blog has millions of page views, and will have a place in history. It doesn’t hurt any of us to practice some mindfulness when we write.
This isn’t about shrinking violets like this blogger, but it is about hundreds of thousands of readers who need the subjective and objective content we provide together. Even venting can be mindful, in such a context.
For example, no, the civil rights movement wasn’t a violent movement, not even the Panthers. And, to interrupt the comment thread by Mercedes with a reference to snuff films is vandalism and self-promotion, and you shouldn’t do it. Read the wikipedia article on that, if you don’t realize what kind of imagery you raised. You should not bury other peoples’ contributions in bushels of thoughtless crap.
Chemtechr,
I had written to you a response to your last posting under the remark that mentioned a snuff film. I accounted for it and offered some reflection as well.
May I assume that you read the response?
Goodness, it would you seem to have some kind of heightened awareness of – and objection to – my writing style, which is certainly fine.
I do follow Diane’s rules: no cursing, no vicious attacks against other posters, and no vendettas simply for the sake of attacking another person. I could be wrong, and I have an open mind, but other than a few infrequent exchanges with Harlan Underhill (who once bizarrely stated on this blog that I was a “wife beater and addicted to pills and booze”) and TE, which were servere but also offered substance in the arguments I was posing to them, it is my perception that I follow the rules of this blog. I recall Diane featured three of my comments as articles on her blog. While it does not me a writer make, it might suggest that I have been fair about the norms and tenets set forth by the host.
Months ago, I received a personal note from someone who had read my comments on the Ravitch blog. This individual(s) claimed he/she saw my blog and liked it. They took the time to correct errors in spelling (how embarrassing!) in another site where my bio was featured. They also offered to a series of links that they thought I would be interested in. When I opened them, they were all obituaries of Jews who had died or had been murdered. This was clearly an anti-semitic attack against me. I wrote back to the sender that I would not have any contact with him/her because he was not revealing hisher true coordinates and identity. He/she wrote back to me in German, stating, (translated) “I understand your reasoning”.
This Chemtchr, to me, is a reason to object to one’s writing. This is a great reason to censor someone or curtail them on the Ravitch blog, and it’s too bad, I have not yet forensically traced the sender. Of course, if you object to me that much, please continue to let me know why. You know, you are welcome to reach me also at artwork88@aol.com, and I have no issues disclosing who I am and where I am based.
Chemtchr, I should also let you know that I have never received a complaint from the host here or in my private e-mail, nor have I received complaints from other posters. Certainly, if anyone does have an objection to my comments, I have a very sincere open mind and am willing to listen to diverse views that take themselves seriously.
And I do take your intentions quite seriously, Chemtchr. It is more than clear that yours is no act, and I take refuge in that.
These are severe times, and the reform movement has pushed a silent violence (I take some poetic liberty here, Chemtchr . . . please forgive me) upon the general citizenry by lying about teachers, developing expensive and too often effective propaganda campaigns against them, mischaracterizing children’s intellectual and cognitive capacity, destroying labor rights, wasting precious tax dollars on new federal and state mandates from RttT, forcing the wiring of children’s brains in a direction that will produce failure, demoralization, and little critical thinking, which, when you think about it, Chemtchr, changes the internal landscape of society, culture, democracy, and equality.
Still, there are aspects to the reform movement – not many of them – that have provoked great thought and discussion in pedagogical effectiveness and developmental stages of learning. It’s a pity those who make policy don’t engage in those conversations or take them seriously. It’s also a bigger pity thaty the vast majority of policy makers are not educators, have no background in education, and perform no cognitive research.
So, Chemtchr, there is a certain amount of reasonable anger, if not fury, that goes along with what is happening, and where has there never been a firey verbal attack on one’s nemesis by some of the greatest movers and shakers in history, as mentioned by KTA. Something tells me Harriet Tubman and Rosa Parks, at their meetings with those like-minded, did not sit around with their hands folded or knit doilies . . . Mark Twain had some very provocative things to say, as did Chaucer.
And I think we are most fortunate to have a forum that allows language – without too many language police around – as a surrogate for what might otherwise be deemed as unacceptable actions and behavior.
The pen can and should be mightier than the sword, and aren’t we all better off with that arrangement? Even if it involves some hyperbole, some metaphors, some similes, and occasionally some wicked humor? Can one actually utilize those things without being branded a troll?
Freud said humor was anger dressed up.
It could be worse . . . .
Please keep posting. I’ll keep reading . . . . .
As far as what you state are my “bushels of crap”, I view the civil rights movement as an era marked and too oftened defined by unspeakable violence: Kent State, the students from the North who went down South to help black citiizens register to vote and were murdered for it, the Kennedy assasination, the egregious and horrifying demise of MLK, the take-down and scandal of Lee Harvey Oswald, Eugene Connors hosing down protestors with the mighty force of a fire engine hose, the murder of Medgar Evans right outside his home, the murder of Malcolm X, and race riots in a large black enclave in Los Angeles. That’s the short list.
I’m sorry, Chemtchr, really I am.
But this era involved a lot of horrifying aggression against innocent people who were simply exercising their constitutional rights.
Yes, it involved beautiful and coordinated acts of non-violence, but what occured otherwise has laid down, for me, a thick, almost opaque film of meaning and sadness that marked the era as a tumultuous and dangerous one.
If you reduce my view in this as taking a thread and burying people’s discourse in my bushel’s of crap, and let me by guilty . . . . . .
Meantime, Chemtchr, maybe it’s time you and I divorce. I mean, I still love you, but you are showing me that you no longer love me. What’s the point of staying married?
(That was a hyberbole, readers.)
But I will still fight against this corporatization of public education with you and for you.
One must always think of the greater and common good . . . . .
Corrections:
” . . . far as what you state are my “bushels of crap”, I view the civil rights movement as an era marked and, to my regret, defined in part by unspeakable violence . . . . . ”
” . . . that have provoked great thought and discussion of pedagogical effectiveness . . . . ”
” . . . . If you reduce my view in this as taking a thread and burying people’s discourse in my bushels of thoughtless crap, then let me by guilty . . . .”
I have to say that I’m a little tired of people who complain about the “tone” of comments on forums like this. These policies are wreaking havoc on people’s’ lives. Tearing apart families. Destroying schools and communities, and if unchecked, entire professions.
This is real life. And it’s important, vital, messy stuff. Frankly, I’m surprised the tone isn’t even more hostile. I know that my colleagues and I feel stretched to our breaking points. So forgive us if we care a little too much.
Exactly. If she doesn’t like it, she can go somewhere else.
I also don’t think reading her longwinded post she truly understands the real issues that are going on in the privatization movement. It goes much, much further than education–this is all about undermining democracy and selling off its institutions for private gain.
Her comments are the same kind of nonsense I read over at the Facebook BAT page from time to time. It’s almost as if people like her are control freaks and can’t stand it unless they are the center of attention.
Ooh, careful…your comments might go into her blog! 😉
I get that some of us want the whole world to reflect the social values we try to teach in school–everyone’s opinion matters, everyone gets a voice, etc.–but we also teach children about the choices they make and the consequences of such, etc. Many reformers, whether they “mean to” or not, are destroying public education by their affiliations with the privatizing aspect of their movement. If a person who comes into the discussion with interest in improving education is ignorant of this, they ought to read a bit before posting. No one here has an obligation to pre-test another poster on the topic. If you visit, read, read, and read some more before posting a comment.
LG,
“If you visit, read, read, and read some more before posting a comment.”
I don’t know that there should/is necessarily a “reading” prerequisite before posting here. One of the advantages of posting here is that many will respond and hopefully try to “correct”/enlighten the poster as to the fallacies of his/her arguments.
I say post away those who wish to. And I wish more would post.
Agreed! I think we express the passion well, and it’s a necessary element if we are to save public school, and education in this country.
Diane, sometimes it is hard to read what other writers have to write. I, for one, tend to go back and reread what others have said. Sometimes things appear to be nasty, when they are really just a form of validation for another frustrated reader. You seem to have summed it all up, and Robert Rendo completes that summation when he writes: “we use our heads, our hearts, and our souls.” We have been in the trenches. We ache for our own losses in a profession that we loved and we fear for those that follow in our footsteps. We worry about the children who must leave childhood behind prematurely for a system of administrators that doesn’t understand the child.
But, Diane, we are grateful to you for the information you generously share. This information allows us to do the homework required to make informed decisions, to share what we know, and to act, in some small way to preserve democracy in the way it was meant to be preserved.
Thank you.
Please visit #knoxteacherquotes. Knoxville, TN educators admire and appreciate you!!
I am not so much bothered by the tone as I am occasionally offended by the direct insults some people throw about.
Also there are occasionally some posts that give the feel of being planted to cause problems or divert the direction rather than try to come reasonable solutions.
Not to be snarky or sarcastic, but seriously, I can’t imagine anyone who writes “If you’re anything like me, you shy away from talk of politics, current events, or any kind of legislative issues for two reasons: fear of sounding ignorant, and fear of being attacked.” having any reason at all to read this or any other blog.
Yes, Karen, I think Jennifer kind of overdid the “gosh golly gee whiz” thing there.
Here’s somebody who started a blog of her own last July, and remarks, “I had worked with the Common Core standards for several years already…”
Her criticisms remarkably similar, in structure and content, to thoise of the highly organized paid advocacy industry, except they start out locating her on our own side, rather than in opposition. Maybe she is.
Jennifer, welcome aboard. Nobody is going to dial this back, though, or tone it down, or “shy away from politics, current events, or any kind of legislative issues”. Those are what we’re here for, duh. You’ll get used to it.
I am a regular reader of your posts Diane and usually I read all the comment as well. I have been very impressed that even when people disagree there is a civil tone. Most of the frustration seems directed at the right thing – Corporate Reform.
P.S. In the interest of full disclosure Diane, I often like a little more vulgarity in my discussion of the predatory reformers, but I will concede to the need to for restraint, and profanity’s incendiary character… 🙂
I often like a little more vulgarity in my discussion of the predatory reformers
quite understandable
Our high school has created a rubric for “respect.” In the section on “respect for another’s opinion,” the rubric states that the lowest level of respect you can show for someone is “acknowledging another’s point of view.” The highest level of respect you can show for someone’s point of view is “promoting or advocating another’s point of view.”
To me, this encapsulates the problems in our society. Those with whom we disagree are being taught that we are not showing them respect, and become uncomfortable with the dialogue and debate that ensues. Conflating an emotion like respect with a person’s point of view is a flawed and destructive model to the critical thinking process.
As educators we are called to advocate for our students. Passion for our students, our profession and the future of public education is the message that permeates throughout the discussions on this blog. I welcome all of it.
Did you see in today’s news that Virginia is delaying the implementation of its A-F grading of schools?
¿Qué es esto?
https://soundcloud.com/educationweek/arne-duncan-on-indianas?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_content=https://soundcloud.com/educationweek/arne-duncan-on-indianas
I get a little acerbic at times….but doggone it, these edu-reformy and admin folks are demons! ooops, there I go again
Keep saying it because they have harmed a lot of good people out here. It is really sad.
The so-called reformers close schools, disrupting lives, livelihoods and communities.
They lie about and scapegoat a noble, ancient and socially necessary craft.
The undermine democratic governance.
They use carefully crafted lies and rhetoric to turn over a precious public resource to a small cabal of billionaires.
They threaten to ruin education for an entire generation of young people.
But the tone of some people commenting on this blog is the problem?
Exactly, Michael!
I ask, instead, where is the outrage? There should be a lot more of it.
Agree
❤
Perfectly put, Michael.
OK, in the interest of reducing the vitriol, just assume, in the future, that whenever the term
Common [sic] Core [sic] State [sic] Standards [sic] in ELA
appears in my writing on this blog in the future, just imagine, if you will, that the term is preceded by a string of colorful Anglo-Saxon adjectives.
We’re all teachers here. We don’t like being told what we can think by the likes of these deformers. And the well-being of children is at stake. So, these matters raise strong feelings in many of us.
Just wait until the new tests are given nationwide. If you think you’ve seen vitriol, just wait until you get a load of the parents’ and teachers’ reactions nationwide. What you are going to see is a first-class policy supernova.
She should stand outside a faculty room and listen to the frustration, anger, outrage, anxiety and powerlessness (indeed) of teachers trying desperately to do their jobs in a culture that undervalues them and bashes them constantly (nasty? sarcastic? Puleeze!)
Indeed, I have to wonder how has anybody been “working with the common core” for several years and not noticed what is going on?
GAGAer is the reason why folks don’t notice what is going on.
Diane, I look forward to reading your blog and quite often read the comments. I find it encouraging to read the frustrations that other teachers and administrators are living. We have all been through a lot and do need a place to voice our opinions. However, there is no place for overt rudeness or viciousness.
I worked overseas and now know that the International School of Kuala Lumpur now is using Common Core. My last year there was in 2006-2007. The high stress brought on by the administration micromanaging everything caused, in my belief, the onslaught of a rare nerve disease which caused tumors to grow in each of my hearing nerves, those which go from my ear to the brain. I could no longer work because as a music specialist I couldn’t hear well enough to perform my job.
I do send emails from Diane’s blog to my teacher friends and a custodian who are still working at the school. I want them to know that there is a protest going on within the US against practices that are increasing stress, demoralizing teachers and do not benefit the students.
I just wanted to add that I’m planning to go back to Kuala Lumpur to visit. I did purchase Diane’s book and want to read it on the plane, or in other quiet moments. I plan to leave the book at the school so that teachers can read and understand the complexity of problems in the recent ‘education reform’. ISKL is an American international school and all classes are held in English. We get children from 52 countries around the world.
This blog is one of the only places where teachers and administrators who are on the front lines of the reform wars have to vent their frustrations, share their very upsetting stories, and commiserate with sympathetic colleagues.
I’m always suspicious of tone arguments since they are so frequently used by privileged people to silence and disappear those who don’t share that privilege and therefore are offended by criticism of that privilege.
I’m personally looking at losing my teaching license, negating a dozen or so years and roughly $50,000 worth of college degrees, a National Board Certification, and my earned pension at the age of 53 because I had the audacity to choose to teach poor children of color for the last 20+ years.
Every single day I force myself to get up, get showered, get dressed, and go to school with a smile on my face despite the fact that I am treated like an uneducated fool who does everything wrong. EVERY THING. There is no winning or civil debate with the reformers who have taken over my school.
I suffer from chronic insomnia, depression, nausea, and other gastrointestinal maladies that I won’t share for fear of offending the sensibilities of those in more secure and pleasant sinecures.
If I get a bit heated or cynical or testy I have a right too do so — my livelihood is on the line, my future is on the line, and I am one paycheck from abject poverty and homelessness. If that is uncomfortable or offensive to some bloggers, well, it sounds like a first world problem to me and frankly I don’t care for it.
Deal with the discomfort and fear like I do. Every. Single. Day.
I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I wish there were more I could do to help. For what it’s worth, I think everyone on this blog is behind you.
What you said.
😎
I have seen this happen to many teachers..yet you have people who are still trying to Stop your Voice from being heard. It is not going to happen,…The word is out…As Dienne says below…they are attempting to derail the conversation…..if they win….the teachers and the students…lose..
Hi Chris,
I am so sorry for all you are going through.
I am right there with you, my friend.
Please hang in there, obviously your students and unboubtly some of your colleagues need you.
Ang
How dreadful. I myself am a coward: from college age I decided to avoid academia– it seemed a place of top-down arbitrary administration & behind-the-scenes snarkiness. I sneaked in for a few yrs, managing well because it was a tiny private place w/small classes, bright kids, & a principal who minded his own business. But it was easier on pocketbook & emotions to work in a biz job where goals were clearcut. Parenting LD kids spurred me to stick toes back in– still a coward, just a free-lance part-timer supplementing family income. I would be sick like you if I did this fulltime in a public school. When I have encounter arbitrary, unfair treatment (most recently when a longtime client got a reform-y director whose nutjob re-ordering of the place left no room for me), I can leave– & even still it crushes me for months. You are very brave & I wish you well.
Very sad. You should be praised by the USDOE and the president for your service to children. But no! You have been trashed and neglected.
There are some commenters who post here who are obviously trying to derail the conversation, not contribute to it. I’m sorry if this reviewer is offended, but I for one have no respect or patience for people who try to interfere with free speech while trying to claim their own free speech rights. So, yeah, I’ll admit I tend to be rather disrespectful to those sorts of commenters. They have it coming. The word for them is troll.
Other commenters seem genuine in their beliefs and/or simply misinformed, so I try to be more patient, but I’m still going to post forcefully and adamantly because there really isn’t room for acceptance of the “reform” agenda. I’ve never claimed to be a centrist. I don’t believe compromise is possible if competing sides can’t at least agree on some basic tenets. At this point, the “reformers” want to destroy public education (along with democracy itself), whereas we’re trying to save it. Until and unless they agree that public education is worth saving, there is no room for compromise.
And I’ll add, even though I’ve said it before, it’s really hard to be civil when someone has their boot on your neck. Just read some of the posts above about the extreme financial, psychological and physical distress that teachers are in and tell me why I should be civil to the people causing that.
Well said Dienne…..So true
it’s really hard to be civil when someone has their boot on your neck
yes, I have found that this definitely affects my civility
All God’s critters have a place in the choir.
Perfect response…
Is that a song? Ever since I first read your comment early this morning I’ve had a tune kicking around in my head, but I can’t put the words together. Thanks!
Even those critters who choose and actively work to destroy the choir???
Joanna: ❤ this!
This reviewer gives solid advice on how to grow your ranks and win the fight you want to win.
And that advice is. . . ?
I suspect the same tactic has been used to woo so-called leaders in the unions: we really like you personally, but your followers are too shrill/harsh/negative/etc.
It’s a subtle divide and conquer strategy.
I talk to people a lot, and it’s hard not express some anger at times. But we have a problem. The deformers have convinced many people, to greater or lessor degrees. Diane’s blog reaches many, many of us and chips away huge ice blocks, and each day starts all over again. She is indefatigable. It shouldn’t have taken this long for us to wake up, but it has. If this was an easy fight, it would already be won. Whole communities are beginning to stir and fight, (I love the fight in Newark) but we have a long and dangerous road ahead. No allies should be shunned, though some are less developed than others. Great people like Diane pull it all together. Full steam ahead!!!
I’ve read that many people in Detroit are disgusted that Obama has teamed up with Snyder in regards to school reform and the issues with pensions for Detroiters. Things do seem to be stirring and changing.
Looks like Jennifer Gonzalez has seen the vitriol aimed at people like me in the comments section of this blog and taken note. I am glad to be making a difference in pointing out the ad hominem hate that is pandemic of the anti-choice movement.
Setting yourself up as a victim is a great psychological strategy, because then anything anyone says to disagree with you can be taken as “proof” of just how “persecuted” you are.
Unfortunately for you, people are starting to see through the ploy.
I dont mind the attacks, Its good, it shows who I can ignore as they lose credibility intantaneously for their attacks. Generally when someone is proven wrong or caught outright lying, they get aggitated and go on the attack. Actions speak for themselves, this is basic human nature. I let facts and reality speak instead of insinuation and make believe to support preconceived notions.
Dienne: quite so.
The always popular “Miss Michelle, the bad kids are picking on me!”
Because the leaders and followers of the charterite/privatizer movement can’t win by the “power of their ideas” they torture numbers, massage logic and invent facts.
It’s a fact, dontchaknow, that choicers are the victims of public school advocates—like the Prez and his Sec of Ed who refuse to give charters and vouchers a moment of their time or a smidgeon of their effort . Nope, they’re 100% dedicated to putting the special interests of unionized teachers and public school parents and students and their communities first.
Uh-huh. And don’t forget how dreadfully wasteful and thoughtless those public school people are in Los Angeles, spending all that bond money on iPads while strangling the baby of charter school expansion in its crib. We need to put rheeal rheephormers in charge to straighten out such Broadly destructive actions…
Oh my, word salad thou art…
Keep commenting. I’ll keep reading.
😎
“. . . of the anti-choice movement.”
I don’t remember very many abortion advocates posting here, or the supposed pro-lifers either.
MS,
You refer to “lazy teachers” in a pervious thread and get some angry responses. You accuse everyone who disagrees with your assertions re: success academy as ” not having the facts” and other put downs and dismissals.
And somehow you paint yourself as the victim of ad hominem attacks?
#notbuyingit
Ang: apparently someone presumes that none of us who post here ever reads the comments of others, remembers what they have written, and contrasts and compares their various claims to see if they walk their own talk.
Is there a “pattern on the rug” here? For example, a certain participant in a $tudent $ucce$$ rheeality show took her students from the 13th percentile to the 90th. Except that, er, there’s no documentation about said “fact” and the principal who allegedly told her that has never ever confirmed it; now that assertion is like the Voldemort character in the Harry Potter series [“He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named”]. And haven’t heard much of the masking tape technique of Teach Like A Champion either lately…
Far be it from me to remind viewers of this blog of Dr. Steve “Strap Up Head Injuries” Perry [“American’s Most Trusted Educator”—it says so right in big letters on his blog!] just likes using colorful metaphors in his tweets when he’s collecting his school paycheck for helping the neediest kids—multitasking, don’t you know, while he out of his office and school on private well paid gigs.
LAUSD School Supertendent John Deasy who observed a substitute teacher, Ms. Patrena Shankling, for a few minutes doing exactly what she was required to, and then had her fired. EduExcellence at work—especially if you consider the $1 billion iPad fiasco done under his direct supervision an example of constructive sustainable advancement of the second-largest public school district in the country.
Could it be that shameless half-truths, lies and omissions an “education reform” movement make?
Sorry. Maybe my tone is out of line.
Or not. Perhaps I could learn something from someone who was in it to win it:
“To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker”
I think I’ll go with Frederick Douglass on this one.
😎
MS. From what I have seen, you have been quite civil in your responses. That speaks highly of you.
Why thank you Robert.
Robert, From what I have seen, you have not done close reading and detected all the invective spewed by MS. That does not speak highly of either of you.
1) I hear from teachers all the time that they don’t want to get involved in politics, they just want to teach. That seems to be at least part of what I am hearing from Ms. Gonzalez. I hope that attitude is starting to change because teachers have to take the lead in the fight for public education.
2) The “tone” argument is always frustrating, because many times in life there are things worth fighting for that require, well, fighting words.
3) I have never gotten the impression that anyone here or who follows Diane thinks everything is hunky-dory and that all teachers are wonderful. This is kind of a variant of the “defending the status quo” argument that we hear all the time. The problem is that nothing constructive in the way of reforms can happen until this drive to privatize education is defeated. People have tried to work with the “reformers” and have gotten kicked in the teeth for the effort. There can’t be a “Kumbaya” moment where we all just get along until those trying to destroy public education” are kicked to the curb, and that fight is going to be nasty at times because it is so important that we win.
We know that not all teachers are wonderful. We have ideas for what to do about it. We have to level the playing field so our ideas can be heard.
This blog is valuable in that it promotes the pro-union, anti-reform, anti-choice extreme left of the spectrum on education in this country. The far left has a place at the table for sure, as does the far right and eveyrone in the middle. The problem is that extremist views on either side are usually not the panacea but symptoms of the overall problem.
I post on this forum specifically because I find the anti-choice, anti-charter rhetoric to be so over the top its disgusting, but more importantly Mrs Ravitch and the commentors here are to a T completely wrong in stating their psudo-facts. I can honestly put some of the level of infacutal claims on naivety, many simply follow what they hear in the media and assume its true, but there is a greater undercurrent of designed lies, deception and attacks that eminates from the union side that cares little about the truth let alone the children. I post on this forum to educate the readers about the truth around the charter school my kid attends in this city.
MS: what charter chain and what city? Kipp, Gulen, or Rocketship, etc. Your post is lacking in facts.
Success Academy.
Id like to make another point to highlight the hypcoracy of the anit choice movement here in NY. We consistently hear that SA ‘picks’ who it admits. This of course is incorrect, they hold a blind lottery with the only preference being proximity to the school and legacy for families already attending. Yet we have many zoned schools that not only get to pick which kids they want, they force kids to test in at grades as young as K. Look no further then the top public school in the city, PS 334, the Anderson School. That school admits about 50 K per year out of 600 who score in the 99ht percentile of the gifted and talented city tests. But of course this is ok, openly testing 5yr olds to get into the best school in the system, yet a charter having a blind lottery is some how skimming off the top?!
We call this a double standard. You see the folks on the extreme anti-choice left do not care if you skim, or pick, or do anything you want with kids as long as its done within THEIR controlled system. Once someone exists that system and shows any level of success, it becomes an attack on their control, and that is all this is really about. The establishment fighting to maintain control against parents demanding better for their kids.
This is the kind of non-sequitur that MS routinely offers as a distraction. He knows full well that New York State’s charter school law prohibits charter schools from screening its students for academic ability — http://goo.gl/8LNSTk.
Anderson and all other selective traditional DOE schools replace students who leave, and they run their classes at above the legally mandated maximum student size. A few weeks ago more than 500 fifth-grade students took an exam in the hopes of landing one of 14 seats Anderson makes available due to larger classes in its middle school.
Success schools, of course, do not accept new students after the very first day of third grade, not even their schools that currently run K-8, K-6, K-4, etc. This is in violation of the NYS Charter School Law (more on this in a post that is awaiting moderation due to multiple links).
Tim, you are comparing apples to oranges. Schools like Anderson and dozens of other grade schools are not open to the general public, they have specific standards that keep 99% of the cities student population from attending. Charters are charged with picking and choosing who attends and this is wrong in the view of the anti-choice movement. Yet the anti choice movement has no problem with specific standards for THEIR schools!
Why is it ok for Anderson School to only allow in the top .01% of NYC school kids based on academic merits yet a blind lottery for charter entry is an unethical process of ‘picking’ who attends based on how well they might test?
Why dont you go ahead and admit its a double standard too…
Oh and just to point out another inconsistency in the anti-choice argument, they claim charters are not ‘public schools’ because of their admittance policies, yet schools like Anderson somehow are public schools with much more strict and defined admittance policies.
See what happens when you pull the hood up on the lemon the anti choice movement is puttering around in? You find a carborator fuull of hypocracy!
I have issues with selective enrollment public schools too, but that’s not exactly the issue here. The issue is that charter schools claim to be educating the same kinds of kids as general public schools and getting better results. But the reality is that the application process itself and the parent volunteer requirement guarantee that charter schools are not educating the same kinds of kids. Parents have to be pretty well together and savvy to manage the charter school process – kids of parents who aren’t that savvy/together go to public schools.
Public schools (general ones) also do not have the ability to “counsel out” kids who will not perform well on the tests, which charter schools do routinely (which such kids, incidentally, go back to public schools usually). And as Tim pointed out, Success Academy does not accept new kids after the first day of third grade.
And finally, of course, there is what is meant by “results”. Success Academy puts pretty much all its eggs in the test prep basket and test scores are the sole means of gauging “results”. Personally, to me, “results” are when children feel confident and secure, when they love learning and have the freedom and the self-direction to ask and answer their own questions, to explore their own ideas, to express their own thoughts and opinions. Those kinds of results don’t happen in a “no excuses”, drill and kill environment where everything is scripted and controlled.
We went to 1 prospective parent meeting at SA, asked some questions, filled out an online form and were accepted. We were not recruited nor was the application process inconvenient in any way. I can also tell you from teh quality of some of the parents at our SA, they are hardly savvy or together. One of the kids in our class has a crackhead mother who sits on the corner in front of the PJs all day.
As for this failed claim of creaming out bad test takers, it seems to go against the facts that have been shown by the IBO who’s study found that Charters citywide have lower attrition rates then zoned schools. This begs the question, are zoned schools creaming? Why do they have higher attrition rates?
As for results, SA goes well beyond just tests, take a look at how well their chess teams have done, they consistently rank in the top 10% state wide. Next we will begin hearing that the critical thinking learning chess at a young age develops is really bad and should not be allowed.
MS, you are disengenuis. My neighborhood public school (not a magnet) had a nationally award winning chess team, dance, choir, robotic program, honor and AP classes, on and on and on. Our students however could not get a high enough average score to “pass” the state test even though they earned millions of dollars in college scholarships. But they still said we were a failing school, fired all the teachers, replaced us with Teach for America, and stuck the students behind computers, no teaching allowed, and all programs are gone. You need to read Diane’s book.
How many homeless students are at SA?
I think MS got “schooled.”
“I think MS got “schooled.”
Now, now…let’s be civil when pointing out the obvious. Oh wait…you ARE! 😉
Yes, we know, MS. You love to shine your spotlight of truth until it falls upon something you don’t want the world to see. Then you deny, filibuster, argue with strawmen, introduce non sequiturs, or simply disappear.
Success Academy schools do not now, nor do they ever intend to, admit new children after the very first day of third grade. They have publicly rationalized this “no backfill” policy by saying children coming from outside the network “will be at a disadvantage.” http://www.citylimits.org/news/articles/4839/new-charter-high-school-will-be-closed-to-transfer-students#.Uuu8Yj1dW7A
The network is thus in violation of the NYS Charter School law, which clearly states that admissions to charter schools “shall not be limited on the basis of intellectual ability [or]measures of achievement or aptitude.” http://goo.gl/8LNSTk
I encourage anyone who is a stakeholder in public education in New York State to contact the SUNY Charter School Institute and let its leadership know that Success should not receive any further charters, or have any existing charters renewed, until they are in compliance with New York State law. http://www.newyorkcharters.org/contact.htm
Tim, it seems you remain confused on a number of points here, all of which I have already explained to you. Lets start wtih other forms of public schools that have even tighter admission limits then SA. Remember our discussion on Hunter College schools, well they stop admitting kids into their elementary school after Kindergarden as you can see from their own admissions site:
http://www.hunterschools.org/es/admissons
HCEM is a public school that stops accepting new students after K, but you do not seem to take issue with this form of acceptance but seem pretty wound up about SA. This would show you have a bias. You dont seem to believe HCEM is breaking the law with an even tighter admissions policy then SA. I see how it works with you.
Ive also asked you to explain, how with SA’s supposed attrition rate, it can even have a high school without new students? You have yet to answer that question as well.
These are typically lame attempts to deflect from the central issue, which is that Success doesn’t admit new kids after the first day of third grade, which is in turn a violation of the NYS charter law.
The attempt to insert Hunter into the discussion is a complete non sequitur, and one you’ve trotted out before. Hunter is not a DOE school. Furthermore, not only do they admit kids after K, fully 80% of their high school enrollment is made up of kids who test in for 7th grade. Can’t you get the facts straight even on your non sequitur?
And again, the question of Success and high school has been answered multiple times. Because you don’t have a real argument to make, the best you can do is repeatedly claim I’ve said Success’s attrition is so high, they won’t have any or enough 8th graders to fill a high school. This claim is false, of course. What I’ve said is that Success’s attrition rate is extremely high, and that the kids who leave aren’t replaced, but they have planned for the high school to receive a minimum of 34 kids from each of the Harlem Success schools. Once more, here is the EIS for you to read and process: http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/D5369995-5FC0-41F8-BF1A-6E8BAC200A23/142028/SuccessHSatNormanThomas_vFINAL1.pdf
Are you ready to admit that you’re wrong, and that your beloved network is flagrantly violating the law, or do you have any other old and easily debunked counterarguments you’d like to recycle?
Tim, you are flat out wrong. Hunter only admits kids in K and 7th. THats it. No other entry points at any other time. Their own website states as much. Hunter is also a public school that does not charge tuition and receives state funding. Ive provided their website, you can call them as well, their admissions office will tell you the same.
So instead of hiding or ignoring reality, why dont you answer this very basic question.
Why is it acceptable for a public school like Hunter to only allow entry at the K and 7th grade level but not ok for SA to allow kids at K, 1, 2 and 3rd grade levels?
What gives, why is one ok but the other not. Why do you have such a double standard on these two types of public schools?
I paitently await the answer.
Tim, you’re right on target and the example provided is MOTS. According to the school’s website, it is “not affiliated with the New York City Board of Education.” It’s “chartered by the board of Trustees of the City University of New York, and administered by Hunter College,” and it was long ago established as an experimental demonstration/lab school for gifted children in conjunction with the college’s Teacher Education program.
“Yes, we know, MS. You love to shine your spotlight of truth until it falls upon something you don’t want the world to see. Then you deny, filibuster, argue with strawmen, introduce non sequiturs, or simply disappear.”
I think the fundamental problem with the whole reform argument is that many are framing it with a short reach. We all have personal experiences that can refute anything someone else offers as a reason for anything.
This lack of experience in debating philosophical matters is a very big problem in our society. Everything becomes “truth” based on narrow experience to the average thinker.
One needs to see the big picture and be able to extrapolate what can and will happen within the confines of their points-of-view.
The basic philosophy of democracy is the crux of every argument on here, yet so many if us ignore this point because if our personal interests. We have a larger obligation to this society, and until we inject this responsibility into the debate, we are going to continue to run around in circles.
Tim, any response? Why is it ok for Hunter to only allow children into their schools in K and 7 yet wrong for Succecss Academy to do it K-3?
Hunter is a selective public school.
Success Academy is a private school getting public dollars.
How should one make a distinction between a public school and a private one. Clearly Dr. Ravitch finds the traditional ones (public is free to attend, does not require standardized tests for admission, is defined by law to be a public school, etc) adequate, so what criteria should be used? One might think it is control by the local school board, but that would eliminate state wide magnet schools like the one contemplated by my state and allow charter schools run by the local school district to be called a public school.
LOL, Diane you have zero credibility when you claim Hunter, which is a public charter school is any different then Success Academy which is also a chartered public school. The fact that you are ok with Hunter but hate Success makes your view hypocritical.
Its posts like this that make me smile, you have just shown your true colors.
TE, its only a public school to the anti-choice left if its unionized, that is their definition.
Many Teacher Education programs at universities across the country have long had experimental demonstration/laboratory schools. As I stated earlier, Hunter is one of them. It is for gifted children and it was chartered by the City University of New York decades before there were such things as charter schools run by non-educator profiteers.
I am surprised that Dr. Ravitch considers it a public school as it is controlled by CUNY and not the city department of education, so I am even more confused about how she distinguishes between public and non-public schools.
Should charter schools like Hunter be encouraged? This might provide some common ground between advocates of choice and those concerned with choice.
There’s a big difference between schools like Hunter, Stuyvesant, LaGuardia, etc and the current charter school movement.
Those schools were ADDED to the NYC school system as a means of furthering excellence and (very big AND) they didn’t run any other public schools into the ground.
They didn’t replace “substandard” (please note quotes) schools and then only accept a small number of students from the now closed school, letting the rest of the kids “go their way” to another public school that then became overcrowded with less funds than in the past because those funds were being now being diverted to charter schools (some for profit) that insisted on “sharing”. They didn’t allow for a domino effect of failing public schools as a result of irresponsible actions.
They were and still are subject to oversight. Books are open. Big difference.
Let’s not simplify this into an argument about the value of a charter school. This is about a large-scale movement to replace the current national public school system with a privatized model.
I am curious about how Hunter, a privately chartered school funded by taxpayers that uses a qualified admission process based on standardized exams that skims the best students from traditional zoned schools is a “public” school, while a school like the Community Roots Charter School in Brooklyn is not. Is it simply privileging the status quo?
Hunter is not a charter school. It is part of Hunter College, which is part of the public City University of New York.
Hunter is governed by the department of education of the city of New York?
Are schools that are chartered by postsecondary institutions good charters that should be allowed to skim?
Here is a list of the latest schools chartered by Central Michigan University:
http://www.thecenterforcharters.org/modules.php?name=Pages&sp_id=189
Are the 64 schools chartered by this public university good charters as well?
Here is a link to Eastern Michigan University’s charter page:https://www.emich.edu/charterschools/
They only oversee 12 schools. Again, is being chartered by a post secondary public institution make these schools “public” schools?
In many states, when charter school legislation was passed in the 90s, charter authorizers were identified and universities were provided as an option. The 64 charter schools in MI were authorized by CMU under the state’s charter school law. This is very different from a school that is an experimental demonstration/lab school which is an integral component of the university’s Teacher Ed college, like at Hunter.
What are the crucial differences between the CUNY chartered school and Central Michigan University (or Eastern Michigan or Ball State University) chartered schools that make the CUNY chartered school a “public” school and the others not a public school?
I think answering this question would be a valuable contribution to the dialog on this blog because it is likely to reveal the extent of the common ground between folks that are comfortable with properly regulated charter schools like myself and those that are not comfortable with those schools.
CUNY has no charters. CUNY is not authorized to grant charters.
This leaves me a bit confused. When Teacher Ed posted that Hunter school “..is for gifted children and it was chartered by the City University of New York decades before…” was Teacher Ed mistaken?
Is Hunter in fact run by Chancellor Carmen Fariña?
Hunter College was granted a charter by the State Board of Regents, just like Success Academy was. Hunter and Success are not part of the Department of Education, they answer to the BoR at the state level.
More importantly, Hunter only allows kids in at 2 entry points, K and 7th grade, and those entry points are based on being in the top 1% of test results in the city. We are talking about 50 K seats and 75 7th graders. Mrs Ravitch has no issue with this admissions policy by what she deems a public school. Yet Success Academy which has a blind lottery for k-3rd grades and accepts thousands of children is a ‘private school’.
Pot, meet kettle!!!
MS: this is not a sporting event. There are no “WINNERS!!!” in this discussion. So please take that sophomoric element out of your victory posts and give some thought to this:
Diane has never expressed a “hatred” of charter schools. In fact, she (and many others on this blog) has often spoken of their virtues as an alternative that was originally meant to work in conjunction with the public schools systems. Alongside the current system.
What Diane, myself, and many other experienced (and not so experienced) educators are speaking out against is the way in which these charter schools (and virtual schools, testing, VAMs, non-educators setting policy, etc) are being used to supplant and REPLACE the existing public school system. There is no co-existence, here.
Sheepshead Bay: two schools. One struggling. One excelling. The struggling school, despite gains in attendance/test scores/quelling episodes of violence, is closed and replaced by charter schools, receiving public funds. These charters take in a fraction of the population that was in the “underperforming” school (which was improving…just not fast enough) while the remaining kids end up going to the one that was doing so well.
I think you know what happened next: this once excelling public school becames overcrowded and was told they will have to work with a slashed budget, as well. Budget cuts coming every year, nowadays. Two years later and that school was slated for closure. A closure that our union foretold and warned the DOE about when the underperforming school was first slated for charter replacement.
This isn’t an isolated instance. It’s happening everywhere. Instead of working with the existing system, the charter movement is touting itself as being BETTER than the existing system and in competition with it.
The business world now controls our public education system. The business world’s model is one of competition. The philosophy: competition will bring out the best in all of us. But competition is only effective within the boundaries of a cooperative system. Otherwise it becomes corrupt and “fixed”. Buyer beware. But this isn’t Wall Street.
That’s what we’re speaking out against, MS. I understand that you’re a parent who has his/her child’s best interests at heart. I respect that. So am I. So please don’t denigrate the conversation with simplistic accusations such as what I’ve been reading in your posts. There are a LOT of teachers out there who are very angry and frustrated and for good reason. We’re not sitting on our a#%es, waiting for our pensions. We’re trained professionals who have much, much more than just a clue about what works and what doesn’t in our field.
Teaching Economist, I’m sorry that you’ve gotten caught in MS’s blizzard of deflection and misinformation. I’ll attempt to explain Hunter’s situation, and why it is a red herring in this conversation.
The Hunter College schools (known collectively as the Hunter College Campus Schools) are a K-12 system split into two parts: a K-6 school open only to children living in the borough of Manhattan. 25 boys and 25 girls are admitted to the K-6 every year; they have scored a minimum of ~150 on the Stanford Binet and then undergone a rigorous interviewing process.
The high school actually covers grades 7-12, and it is open to any child living in the five boroughs of New York City. Just about all of the kids graduating from the elementary school portion continue on to the high school. The rest of the seats–typically around 175 or so–are filled by children who have achieved a high score on NYSED state tests in 5th grade and sit for Hunter’s legendary entrance exam.
The Hunter College Campus Schools are public schools administered entirely by Hunter College and its school of education. It has no relationship at all with the New York City Department of Education, nor is it a charter school. The elementary school portion has been around for at least 100 years and the high school since the 1930s–well before the modern charter school law. There is no other school like it in New York City.
MS’s constant harping on this issue is an intentional distraction. He knows full well that the New York State charter school law is crystal clear and forbids charter schools from screening their students academically. He also knows that New York State has laws providing for the screening and education of gifted students. Last, he also knows that when districts provide gifted options for students, this does not absolve them of their responsibility to educate all other kids, including the severely disabled, English language learners, and so on.
Not coincidentally, his child’s network is in violation of the New York State charter school law. They do not admit any new children after the very first day of third grade, even in schools that currently run through grade 8. Their publicly stated rationale for this policy is that they don’t want newcomers to be too far behind the current students. This clearly violates the requirement that charter schools must not discriminate by academic ability. If MS wants to argue that this portion of the law is unfair, that might be more intellectually honest, but I suspect he knows that changing the law to allow charters to screen would be a political non-starter.
You would place Hunter as a fourth category of school, not a public school, not a charter school, not a private school but something else?
Thinking back on the arguments given here about the failings of charter schools, most would seem to apply to Hunter, especially the lack of public control over the school and the damage inflicted on public schools by skimming the most motivated and able out of the traditional public school system. In addition, given our discussion of the relationship between SES and performance on standardized tests, I would think that Hunter might be criticized as a private school masquerading as a public school where the relatively wealthy get taxpayers to pay the tuition.
TE: my daughter’s best friend got into Hunter because she scored well above the average on both the math and ELA tests. She applied to and was accepted into that program.
My daughter, on the other hand, though well above the average in ELA, was slightly below that plane in math. She was not accepted.
Neither I nor the family of my kid’s friend are wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.
Both girls are now seniors. Both have had great educations at their respective schools. Both have been accepted, early decision and early action, to the excellent colleges of their choice.
Hunter isn’t skimming anything off the top. This is a very big city with a lot of great schools putting out serious college ready individuals. Hunter provides a good alternative for those who meet their criteria. It operates in conjunction with and cooperatively with the public school system of NYC. It is not in competition with the existing system for funds and space. And there are other excellent schools already in place through all 5 boroughs.
It seems to me that if charter schools skim by requiring students to enter a lottery, schools that require students to take standardized exams for admission also skim.
Who pays for the staff, space, and resources used at Hunter?
I am trying to understand why Hunter is getting a free pass here and schools like Community Roots Charter School are condemned, despite the fact that every specific objection to schools like Community Roots I have seen on this blog also seems to apply to Hunter.
You’re going beyond my field of knowledge in terms of who funds Hunter and the specifics of Community Roots Charter School.
What I do know is this (though I’m not sure if it’s true of Community Roots):
Hunter is not in competition with the NYC Public Schools system. Many of the charter schools are. It doesn’t supplant existing schools, leading to migrations of the castoffs to other schools which end up being overwhelmed by the influx and budget cuts. It doesn’t co-locate into buildings where the public school kids get to see state of the art classrooms for the others compared to the run down conditions they’re being exposed to on a daily basis.
And, as I said before: it’s not skimming the best from the public schools. It’s taking in kids who did exceptionally well on both math and ELA standardized tests. That’s not “the best”. My daughter’s best friend is the first to admit that she’s nowhere near the writer that my daughter is. But she is better in math. So be it. The kids that don’t get in (or didn’t even try) can still get excellent educations from the other schools in this city. I know mine did.
I already stated the above, btw. Was I unclear the first time? I’ll always say when I don’t have knowledge of something. And I’m more than willing to admit when I’m wrong. But as a 30 year resident of NYC, I’m talking from experience when I do speak. My friend’s kids, their parent’s kids (us), etc have received quality educations from the public school system, here. Despite the official’s claims to the contrary.
If you don’t think that basing admissions on standardized test scores is skimming, can I assume you also don’t think that asking parents to fill out application forms for random lotteries is skimming as well?
Tim,
You hare flat out, 100% wrong. Hunter does not accept 50 children annually, they accept them ONCE, at the K level, never again for the next 6 grades. There is one chance to get into Hunter Elementary and that is by testing in at the K level. Their is no application or acceptance for grades 1-6. Why do you continue to state that there is?
Now, I am sorry but I can not allow you to get away without answering to your double standard. Explain for us all why it is ok that Hunter Charter School only has 2 entry points for their entire K-12 system yet it is not ok for Success Academy to have entry points at K-3 only?
Whow many times will I have to ask this question before you answer it?
gitapik,
Your post really crystalizes the double standard put forth by the anti choice left. Why is it great and wonderful that we have charter schools like Hunter yet great and wonderful charter schools like Success are evil?
YOu are not allowed to have it both ways, if you are ok with how Hunter opperates, you MUST be ok with how Success opperates, otherwise you become a hypocrate.
Ive been asking Tim this for weeks now and he only runs from it. Hunter is harder to get into then Success and uses even greater admissions requirements as well as being chartered by the state and not controlled by the DoE nor having its books open to the public.
Anyone who favors Hunter but opposes Success Academy has no choice but being a total hypocrate.
Gitpak, you are incorrect in stating that charters ‘replace’ existing schools. That is not true. Charters are given space that is unused in public school buildings. However, this does not stop exsisting zoned schools from cheating to steal space from the public charters. Let me give you an example. At SACH, they were awarded an empty floor in the building they are currently in, as the process of creation was taking place the existing schools in the building started holding makeshift classes in the empty floor so that they could claim that they had room being stolen from them by the charter. It was a ploy, a cheap tactic to sell to the media types like Juan Gonazles who blindly support anything anti-charter. If that is not enough, the teachers union sent spies and bullies to photograph and intimidate teachers and administrators at SACH over their changing of lightbulbs. This is the sort of tretchery that the charter system has to put up with.
As for the point, charters are not walmart, moving in and pricing out the competition, they are a direct result of a demand within the community for a solution to a problem that has plagued our schools for generations. Parents have had enough of failing zoned schools and being told by the union how things will work. This is why their is so much anger towards charter, they are the upstart grass roots revolutionary concept that is changing the system for the better and those who control the system are scared out of their minds. The hate eminating from the power elite is personified by their actions and on this forum. Mrs Ravitch represents this old guard line of thinking that fears change and wants to keep the failing system in place. Too bad she is on the wrong side of history here.
The “failing public schools” are given little chance or funds to institute change in a limited time frame, so they are closed. Then, yes: there is space available. Enter the charter schools.
As I said before: the kids who are not admitted to the charters go to neighboring schools that end up being overcrowded and underfunded. Soon they are slated for closure. Then, yes: there is space available. Enter the charter schools.
It’s a domino effect. One school after the next is closed and replaced by charter schools that are given much better supplies and accommodations than the students in the original school were given. The castoffs go to a school that has less.
Some (if not “much”) of the charter movement in NYC is being fueled by parents who’ve either moved into gentrified neighborhoods or have seen improvements through strong efforts within the community. I’ve taught in those neighborhoods prior to gentrification. Gangs walking around with guns clearly visible. Kids not being allowed outside to play after school. The schools in those neighborhoods were dangerous places in which to teach. Teachers and the union are blamed for the failure of those schools. Have you ever prepared unit and lesson plans and then tried to execute them in front of a class where you’re cursed out period by period on a daily basis? Where students slash your tires and bait you to fight on your way to that car? Where the gangs run through the halls, smashing bottles against the walls, tearing down bulletin boards, and trying to force open the doors that we’ve been ordered to lock down during these episodes?
Gentrification starts to take place and the parents take a look at the schools and say, “What kind of education is this? How can these people call themselves teachers!? And the unions PROTECT this!?”.
The problem isn’t specific to the teachers. It’s not specific to the union. Safer neighborhoods allow for better learning environments. I wish you’d understand that I and many others are not against charter schools. We are against throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I’m no Pollyanna. There are problems to be solved and nowhere more than in inner city neighborhoods. I KNOW this. But I don’t believe that replacing our public school system with a privatized one is the solution. And the way in which the charter school movement, in tandem with other education “reform” initiatives, is being instituted is creating a strong ripple effect that, in the opinion of many, included myself, will do just that: destroy the entire public school system.
Teaching economist,
Thank you for also recognizing and highlighting the double standard being perpetuated by the anti choice posters in comparing Hunter to Success.
That being said, Hunter is just one example, there are dozens of schools around the city like Hunter that are not DoE schools, non unionized, and have extremely intensive admissions requirements as well as only allowing admissions at certain points. These schools have been around for generations as well. Yet, they do not receive the same ire as other public school networks like Success Academy, KIPP, etc.
Why do you think the anti charter side cant answer for their double standard on this issue?
The Hunter website says, “The schools are publicly funded, chartered by the board of Trustees of the City University of New York, and administered by Hunter College. They are coeducational laboratory schools for students who exhibit superior cognitive ability and are organized as research and demonstration centers.”
http://www.hunterschools.org/cs-about
So Hunter is in fact chartered by CUNY?
“Hunter College Model School (an elementary school) was established in 1870 as an integral part of the Teacher Education Program of the Normal College.”
“When the New York City Board of Education closed its experimental school for gifted students in 1940, Hunter College recognized a unique opportunity to create an experimental and demonstration center for intellectually gifted pupils. The Hunter College Model School restructured by transferring the seventh and eighth grades to Hunter College High School and by adding a nursery program. In the Fall of 1941, the name of the reorganized school was changed from The Hunter College Model School to Hunter College Elementary School.”
http://www.hunterschools.org/history
“They are the laboratory schools of the City University of New York and together they are known as the Hunter College Campus Schools. Our schools are not affiliated with the New York City Department of Education.”
http://www.hunterschools.org/admissions
TE,
Thanks for the links, they clearly show that not only is Hunter a charter school, it has no affiliation with the DoE yet receives its funding from the state of NY Board of Regents. Oddly enough, this is identical to how Success Academy operates. Yet Hunter is a sterling example of how charters can be ‘labratories’ for innovation while SA is an evil corporate demon trying to destroy our school system.
I mean you really can not make this stuff up, it’s complete hypocracy!
The Hunter College Campus Schools are not charter schools. The only entities with the power to grant charters in New York State are the New York State Education Department (NYSED), the SUNY Charter School Institute, and the New York City Department of Education. Hunter isn’t affiliated with any of these; it is operated as a laboratory school for the intellectually gifted under the approval of the trustees of the City University of New York. Here is a link to all of the charter schools in Manhattan (New York County), you’ll note Hunter’s conspicuous absence: https://reportcards.nysed.gov/view.php?schdist=district&county=31&year=2012
Teaching Economist, I would categorize Hunter as a public school with a highly selective admissions process, similar to Thomas Jefferson, Stuyvesant, etc. It isn’t relevant in a discussion of charter school admissions for several reasons. Hunter is an historical oddity that no one is proposing to replicate; Hunter itself has no plans to expand or add seats. It is educating a tiny number of kids–it admits 50 Manhattan children for K every year out of approximately 20,000 five-year-old Manhattan residents, and 175 7th graders out of a citywide population of approximately 90,000 twelve-year-olds. Most importantly, the New York State Charter School Act of 1998 strictly prohibits charter schools from limiting admission “on the basis of intellectual ability, measures of achievement or aptitude, athletic ability, disability, race, creed, gender, national origin, religion, or ancestry.” This is where the conversation begins and ends.
The Success schools are in violation of state law, as they do not accept new students after the first day of third grade and they justify this policy on the basis that new students won’t be able to handle the work. I apologize for repeatedly circling back to this point, but it needs to be done: this entire discussion began with MS denying that Success even had such an admissions policy. Then he came up with a flimsy, unsupported story that the network would admit older kids at some unspecified point in the future. Now that he has been presented with incontrovertible evidence straight from the network itself that they have no intention of ever changing the policy, even as they plan to open a high school and have many schools currently running K-4, K-6, and even K-8, and it is evident the policy is unprecedented for a public or charter school, he has resorted to drawing a false parallel with Hunter.
I strongly support choice, be it district programs or charter schools. I agree with MS’s belief that there are enough students, density, scale, school leaders, and facilities in New York to accommodate a wide range of options for families. However, what Success is doing is unusual and illegal, and their charter authorizer, the SUNY Charter School Institute, should not renew their existing charters or issue the network new ones until they admit new children up until the terminal grade of K-8 schools and up until the 10th grade in their high schools. The policy also gives the mayor and chancellor an ironclad justification to stop any future co-locations of Success schools in DOE buildings, and to phase out any schools currently co-located in DOE space.
Several posters have argued that a major issue with charter schools is the lack of control over them by publicly elected school boards. Many posters argue that parents have no voice in that situation. It seems to me that this objection may well apply to Hunter as well, given it’s independence from the DOE.
I don’t know about their board, but Hunter has a PTA –which charter schools do not typically have.
I don’t know if this is comparable, but the Community a Roots charter school has a community council. The description is here: http://www.communityroots.org/community/council
“I mean you really can not make this stuff up,”
Actually, MS, you can and you did. Nothing on the Hunter website says that Hunter gets “its funding from the state of NY Board of Regents.”
What it says is this:
“The Campus Schools’ funding comes from multiple sources: the City of New York, the State of New York, CUNY, and the City Council.”
http://hcespta.org/content/2013-2014-pta-handbook
“extreme left”
Now that’s funny
Arne Duncan says that this anti-deform stuff is all coming from the extreme right. LOL.
Hi Everyone. “Shrinking violet” here. I thought I’d come over and continue the conversation. A few things I’d like to respond to:
(1) Most of the truly nasty discourse is on other sites, which I’ve reached through links from here. I have always seen a more respectful tone on Diane’s site than anywhere else. I thought that was clear in my review, but maybe not.
(2) Chemtchr: I know it’s hard to believe someone would not know what’s going on. I have been out of the classroom for 8 years and spent 2008-2012 working with pre-service teachers, right during the time when the CCSS was introduced in our state (we were early adopters). I’m sure part of my ignorance is based on the fact that I have three young children and have stayed away from the news since around 2009, when debating health care online for several hours every night left me feverish and angry and frustrated and, ultimately, with a few less friends. Since then, I’ve avoided getting involved in anything like that because it can consume your whole life and ultimately lead nowhere — I don’t think I changed anyone’s mind about health care in all those hours of online arguing. Plus, the kids really needed my attention. Still, I can also say with certainty that in the university where I was an adjunct, I didn’t pick up on any controversy. Honest to God. Which leads me to my next point…
(3) Detroiter, I like the way you put it — “less developed.” That’s exactly what I was getting at. I understand that when you’ve been plugged into an issue for a while, it’s seems impossible to believe that everyone isn’t as up to speed as you. And that disbelief can naturally lead to suspecting the motives of a person who demonstrates ignorance. Call it “gosh golly gee whiz,” but I swear it’s not an act. I know plenty of teachers who do not know who Diane is, and I think they need to. But if their ignorance is going to be mocked the moment they step in the door, or if they are immediately accused of being on someone’s payroll, they will leave, and they will never learn all the important things they should. Sometimes those with the quieter voices actually have something to contribute, and maybe they need more backbone, but most will never develop that. Are the “less developed” allies just not welcome?
I’m not interested in curtailing anyone’s free speech. I just think that speech is more effective when you are telling your own story and educating people about the facts, not name-calling or attacking someone you don’t know. Carol Ring and Chris in Florida are experiencing incredible stress and of course have a right to get testy, and if my position comes from privilege then educate me. I get that if I’m not part of the solution, I’m part of the problem, but you will get more people involved in the solution if you stop attacking them personally.
They used to complain that Paul Krugman was “harsh”.
IMHO, the trolls and shills who visit this blog serve an invaluable purpose. They remind us that decency and honesty serve the interests of those in favor of a “better education for all” and are anathema to those seeking to destroy public education in pursuit of $tudent $ucce$$.
For example, any assertion that the MSM is not on the side of the leading charterites/privatizers and their corporate rheephorm agenda is patently absurd.
Equally absurd is any assertion that the BBC, malanthropies, and celebrity enablers are absent from or only a very tiny part of the charter/voucher movement.
Sadly thin is any claim that charters in general serve “the same kinds of kids as public schools.”
And as for unions—I think it fair to say that those who are for a “better education for all” are frequently as much in opposition to the “education” establishment as they are to the “union” establishment.
Folks, don’t expect to see the end of the hype, spin and pr. Here on this blog and elsewhere. Predicted long ago by one of those old dead Greek guys:
“A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true.” [Demosthenes]
😎
Be especially wary of those claiming to be “centrist” and promote it as if that’s the most sensible view, when nothing could be further from the truth. That is how Clinton described himself, in order to capture the southern vote, and it was under his leadership of the “New Democrats” that neo-liberals first turned the Democratic party hard right, against working class people and the common good, in support of corporations. (Remember that Clinton’s promotion of NAFTA is what paved the way for the out-sourcing of millions of American jobs to workers in foreign countries, for slave wages, and now our “centrist” administration wants to fast track TPP, a similar “free trade” agreement developed in secrecy. See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-p-hoffa/its-time-to-end-the-secre_b_4421089.html )
“Centrist” is a euphemism that means anti-labor unions, pro-corporations and pro-privatization of public services. The grossly inequitable distribution of wealth in this country and the privatization of public education are reflections of how right-leaning alleged “centrists” truly are. It also helps to explain why the two major parties seem so eerily similar and are on virtually the same page regarding education, except for the TeaParty fringe.
The reviewer also confesses she is worried because she has reviewed books in Teach for America publications and spoken at Gates-funded venues and she worries that people who read or participate in blogs like this will personally attack her because of this.
Just to clarify: I reviewed an ed tech site that was created by a Teach for America grad, and another site that is funded by Gates, which I only found out afterward.
(I also posted another comment that has yet to show up, so more later…)
Hey Jen, if you really want to see the vitriol of the extremists on this site, just go thru my posts and the responses.
Hey Jen, if you really want to see the vitriol of the extremists on this site, just go thru MS’ posts.
Hi Everyone. “Shrinking violet” here. I thought I’d come over and continue the conversation. (I posted this about 10 minutes ago and it has gotten stuck somewhere, so I apologize if this is a duplicate!)
A few things I’d like to respond to:
(1) Most of the truly nasty discourse is on other sites, which I’ve reached through links from here. I have always seen a more respectful tone on Diane’s site than anywhere else. I thought that was clear in my review, but maybe not.
(2) Chemtchr: I know it’s hard to believe someone would not know what’s going on. I have been out of the classroom for 8 years and spent 2008-2012 working with pre-service teachers, right during the time when the CCSS was introduced in our state (we were early adopters). I’m sure part of my ignorance is based on the fact that I have three young children and have stayed away from the news since around 2009, when debating health care online for several hours every night left me feverish and angry and frustrated and, ultimately, with a few less friends. Since then, I’ve avoided getting involved in anything like that because it can consume your whole life and ultimately lead nowhere — I don’t think I changed anyone’s mind about health care in all those hours of online arguing. Plus, the kids really needed my attention. Still, I can also say with certainty that in the university where I was an adjunct, I didn’t pick up on any controversy. Honest to God. Which leads me to my next point…
(3) Detroiter, I like the way you put it — “less developed.” That’s exactly what I was getting at. I understand that when you’ve been plugged into an issue for a while, it’s seems impossible to believe that everyone isn’t as up to speed as you. And that disbelief can naturally lead to suspecting the motives of a person who demonstrates ignorance. Call it “gosh golly gee whiz,” but I swear it’s not an act. I know plenty of teachers who do not know who Diane is, and I think they need to. But if their ignorance is going to be mocked the moment they step in the door, or if they are immediately accused of being on someone’s payroll, they will leave, and they will never learn all the important things they should. Sometimes those with the quieter voices actually have something to contribute, and maybe they need more backbone, but most will never develop that. Are the “less developed” allies just not welcome?
I’m not interested in curtailing anyone’s free speech. I just think that speech is more effective when you are telling your own story and educating people about the facts, not name-calling or attacking someone you don’t know. Carol Ring and Chris in Florida are experiencing incredible stress and of course have a right to get testy, and if my position comes from privilege then educate me. I get that if I’m not part of the solution, I’m part of the problem, but you will get more people involved in the solution if you stop attacking them personally.
But if their ignorance is going to be mocked the moment they step in the door, or if they are immediately accused of being on someone’s payroll, they will leave, and they will never learn all the important things they should.
Jennifer, that’s very well put.
Jennifer Gonzalez: welcome to “Diane Ravitch’s Blog A site to discuss better education for all.”
😃
I won’t promise to agree with you. I won’t promise to disagree with you. But if you write what you mean and mean what you write, and give respect to get respect—
I promise I will read all your comments.
However, even will Diane’s quite sensible “Rules of the Road” for this blog [reread her posting], I think forewarned is forearmed:
“Fasten your seat belts, it’s going to be a bumpy ride.” [misquote of Margo Channing in ALL ABOUT EVE]
😎
Thanks so much for the welcome, KTA. I have already learned so much in just a few short months. On my own site (which has a WAY smaller audience than this one), I try to reach teachers who aren’t active politically, so I’m really hoping I can take what I learn here and carry it there. I’m ready for the ride!
Welcome!
Oops, I tried to recall without checking and garbled what she said, which was that she favorably reviewed a TFA publication, not that she published in a TFA publication and and that she recommended the Teaching Channel, not that she had spoken on it. MY ERROR:
“Just last month I reviewed Educanon, a free and really useful online tool that was developed by a former Teach for America teacher. Once I started reading Reign of Error and Ravitch’s blog, I learned that Teach for America has been identified as being kind of part of the problem – on the naughty list, so to speak, and I thought, crap. Now anyone who sees that review is going to think I’m on someone’s payroll. In October, I urged readers to go to Teaching Channel – turns out that’s funded by the Gates Foundation, another member of the “other” side. I wondered if, by promoting the channel, I was already picking teams. We can’t do that – start viewing every great idea or innovative product with suspicion, wondering who is behind it and whether we “should” like it. And the creative people whose ideas end up getting scooped up by the wrong side shouldn’t be punished, either, because my guess is, they know about as much as I did three months ago.”
I’ve been teaching for 20 years. Through this ENTIRE tenure, I’ve been told by the mayor, chancellor, governor, president, media, etc that we don’t cut it. I read, hear, and see media pieces that distort the truth and incite the public against us. Articles which are later factually refuted, time after time, yet those refutations are never given the air play they deserve. This is not coincidence.
To the poster who requests a more civil tone: you should sit down for coffee with just one of the thousands of very good, experienced teachers who’ve either lost or are perpetually in fear of losing their jobs because they don’t want to “take the kid gloves off”. Teachers who’ve been given partial curriculums that are faulty to start with and told to work miracles with them. Teachers who know SO much better.
Do you know what it’s like to lose your livelihood after years of good service for no other reason than because you would question or have difficulty administering a new, unproven system that you know, through experience, is not in your class’ best interest?
I agree with one of the first replies here: the tone is remarkably civil, considering the abuse we’ve seen in the schools. Considering the smear tactics that are still being employed by the hired guns of the corporate takeover movement. There’s no secret to their motives when you’ve taken the time to really look and read about what’s going on in this country. It’s shameful and borders on illegal.
NY State Commissioner King said school reform is the Emancipation Proclamation of our times. I’d say he missed the head of that nail by the proverbial mile, there. DEFEATING the current version of school “reform” is the Emancipation Proclamation of our times. And if you’ve watched the movie, “Lincoln”, I think you might see how Thaddeus Stevens’ not so “civil” approach could very well have been the driving force to securing the passage of that bill.
Great response. I keep thinking of the politicians who said, “Teachers feel that they are entitled” and other belittling statements. Or the repeated attacks on nightly news degrading teachers while Arne Duncan gladly approved of firing teachers in the one of the most difficult school environments in America. It is shameful and many people are just plain out of it when it comes down to what is going on in the classrooms across America.
well said!
Jennifer’s review was so refreshing. I read this blog weekly, enjoyed the book, and agree with so much of what Dr. Ravitch has to say about the ills of the corporate reform movement. I have seen the damage first hand here in TN before I retired from my 36 years in public schools. Where I cringe (and I expect to draw attacks now) is I fear that, to a degree, this site is populated by the “old line” pro-union crowd, which frankly turns me off quickly. You form your opinions on your experiences, and I had many an expensive and time consuming battle (mostly won) against union lawyers protecting teachers who were hurting kids and parents. I blame the success of the misguided corporate reform movement to a degree on unions who protect teachers who are cruel to kids, sitting at their desk handing out worksheets and staying on the computer half the day doing “union” business, and worrying about their own well being over the children. Is there room on this blog for anti-reform AND anti-old style union? Probably not, so I will just keep on reading, not posting much, and enjoying the good comments from those who seem to have public schools interest at heart without the union overtones.
RS,
“”. . . this site is populated by the “old line” pro-union crowd, which frankly turns me off quickly.”
Now, if you had “old line pro-union” teachers doing what you say and you didn’t do what it takes to document through the proper channels/mechanisms then the problem was not with the union but with you.
I have dealt with union positions and had to “get rid of” an alcholic employee that we had to hire due to seniority and the fact that no other of his bosses was willing to do what it took to document this empoyee’s problems (this wasn’t a public school but a public university hospital pharmacy). The vaunted union couldn’t do a thing about a properly documented and handled case.
Again, the problem wasn’t the union but the other managers who didn’t do their job. And that is how it is with your supposed “old line” union teachers. It is the administrators who did not do their jobs in not handling the discipline properly. That is not the fault of the teachers’ union.
No, I am not an “old line” union person but I do believe in the need for unions as a counterbalance to the power and money that is on the other side. And as far as I’m concerned the NEA and AFT supposed leadership has sold out its members.
RS, please post more as I’m sure your experiences can help this “site discuss better education for all.”
Thanks,
Duane
No one on this blog defends an employee who does nothing. Have you ever talked to teachers who have worked in charters without unions? You should try. Also it appears you haven’t been in a classroom in years since you retired as a super. You should see what it is like in for profit charters. It is a nightmare.
Well said RS, while private sector unions are the fabric of a vibrant economy, public sector unions should not really exist. One of our greatest presidents, FDR knew this well which is why he opposed public sector unions as they defeat the purpose of collective bargaining. The reasoning for a union is to fight for labors share of a profit pool that they created. In the public sector there is no profit pool, only tax dollars. What is worse, unions can elect in their own officials (as they have with our new mayor Mr Wilhelm) and end up being on both sides of the negotiating table.
Mr Wilhelm already made the ameturish mistake of admitting to the state in public hearings that he only wants a tax on the rich to pay out nice fat union contracts.
What does this have to do with teaching and how unions relate to creating a decent working environment with actual pay raises and benefits?
Nothing, Dee Dee.
Labor unions were put in place for public service workers because the previous ”spoils system”, prior to unionization, permitted patronage hiring and promotions, which fostered cronyism and nepotism, as well as the firing of skilled workers for political purposes and other erroneous reasons. That was a corrupt system which tax dollars should not be supporting, especially if we want career teachers, social service workers, police, firefighters, etc. with the proper training, experience and expertise serving our nation, and not a revolving door of novices who happen to have connections to political clout. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-epstein/what-is-the-meaning-of-li_1_b_832052.html
FDR was a strong supporter of labor unions and just tried to prevent strikes in federal agencies because of national security concerns. http://www.federaltimes.com/article/20120923/ADOP06/309230003/Correcting-misinformation-FDR-8217-s-union-views
I agree that many of the regulations around public school employment are designed to protect the local community from the problems that might arise from having politicians in charge of the largest local employer.
There are no “nice fat union contracts” which stipulate salaries for educators that come anywhere near to rivaling the six figure incomes of charter school “CEOs,” like Eva Moskowitz and Geoffrey Canada. Both receive about two times what superintendents earn overseeing entire school districts with hundreds of schools, but MS has previously written that’s just fine with him.
And, no, I have never belonged to a teachers union, but I support them.
“Well said RS, while private sector unions are the fabric of a vibrant economy, public sector unions should not really exist. One of our greatest presidents, FDR knew this well which is why he opposed public sector unions as they defeat the purpose of collective bargaining.”
Please explain how public sector unions “defeat the purpose of collective bargaining.” As a “civil poster” on here you should understand that comments without validity will be fact-checked. A poster’s credibility lies in the truth of his or her commentary.
“The reasoning for a union is to fight for labors share of a profit pool that they created.”
Actually, “the reasoning for a union” in the public sector is to bring a collective voice to the employees by way of a negotiation team acting on behalf of its members thus protecting their rights to contracted employment. The average union member is neither lawyer nor arbitrator. The team is trained to lay out terms of its collective, consider terms of its employer, and work with the local school board and it’s admins to form a fair contract for all parties.
“What is worse, unions can elect in their own officials (as they have with our new mayor Mr Wilhelm) and end up being on both sides of the negotiating table.”
Endorsing a candidate is not the same as contributing to one’s campaign. An endorsement is a vote of confidence. It doesn’t put politicians on the payroll. That is illegal, and if you suspect such, call for an investigation, but please spare readers the rhetoric unless you have proof
I understand that you paint yourself as a very “civil poster” on here. It appears as if you have a lovely new name for the mayor. What happened to “Deblaze?” I was so fond of that one!
Carmen Farina earns about as much as Eva Moskowitz annually but no one minds that. Yet another double standard perpetuated by the anti-choice extremists.
Carmen Farina oversees the education of 1.1 million children
Eva M: 7,000.
Carmen has a 40-year pension.
Eva: $499,000 ad she is not an educator.
No spin in this zone.
Yet another double standard. Shocker. Carmen is earning $412,000 a year. Quite a payday, but that is ok, because she is part of the establishment, they have different rules. Only Reformers get criticizm for ‘excessive pay’.
MS: Carmen Farina spent 40 years as an educator. She earned a pension. Now she is chancellor of a system with 1.1 million students.
Eva Moskowitz is a politician, not an educator. She runs a chain of charter schools with 7,000 or fewer students. She is paid $499,000, more than the president of the US. That is ridiculous.
Are you suggesting that their responsibilities are equivalent?
1.1 million is more than 7,000.
I can honestly say I think Eva pays herself too much. It is too much of a political lightning rod to take that kind of salary in my view. I think she earns every penny of it, but given the politics, she should not take that much of a salary IMHO.
Charter schools are all about the children and union teachers are greedy? That is opposite world.
In NYC, “16 charter school CEOs earn as much as $500,000 a year.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/funds-drained-article-1.1578760
I worked 10 years in management, supervising and working with 8 union employees. The disdain generated from upper management towards the union was palpable. Sometimes the anger was well placed. Often it was misguided, imo.
I’m in agreement with Duane on this one: firing union employees is a part of the job. A distasteful part and a real PITA…but it can be done. You definitely have to have your ducks in a row. And then there are other ways of making a lazy and/or disruptive union worker WANT to leave. Totally legal and within your rights as an administrator, as well.
None of this is fun, but the vast majority of teachers I’ve worked with are doing the job right and more. Shelling out our own money for supplies. Staying late and coming to work early when necessary. Working at home. These are the people who the union is designed to protect and represent.
The slackers are very much in the minority but, unfortunately, those are the ones who the “reformers” single out as the prevalent problem. Every successful propaganda campaign begins with a grain of truth to which the public can all relate. Anyone here ever had a bad teacher? I know I have. Do they out number the good ones? Not in my experience.
“Old line” pro-union crowd”. You obviously have some issues in that area and I’ll always respect what another’s experience has taught them. But I’ve seen both sides of the fence, sir, and there’s just as much dead wood sitting behind managerial and administrative desks, with a whole slew of different reasons for their being protected.
“You form your opinions on your experiences, and I had many an expensive and time consuming battle (mostly won) against union lawyers protecting teachers who were hurting kids and parents.”
Isn’t that exactly what you are doing here? Your opinions are based on your experiences where you color all teachers unions as the ones where weak administrations somehow are powerless against union “protections.”
As it stands, unions do not and cannot do the jobs of administrators. If an administration has a legitimate issue with a particular teacher, there are channels through which the administrator can go to not only bring charges against the offender, but prove the charges are legit.
Unions make sure that all members have their day in court. They do not strong-arm an administration into not doing its job.
There are two sides to every contract and school boards along with their administrators sign these contracts in good faith. So either your administrators are agreeing to contracts they do not want (their fault) or they are not making legitimate complaints against the people who are in violation of said contracts (their responsibility).
Your comments say more about the administration than the union.
The principal who came to work in our district in 2005 was sent in on the Hate-filled Express. She has been there 8 years. The staff has been miserable all 8. Our staff is excellent and has done everything possible to make the school Excellent with Distinction for years. It is never enough for her. She is condescending, mean, humiliating, demanding, hateful, cruel, and lies.
She has gotten rid of newer teachers for reasons that were simply trumped up. If teachers don’t look up to her, she finds every way possible to get rid of them. Of the teachers who were there prior to her arrival, no k, no 1st, one 2nd, two 3rd, two 4th, and the art teacher remain. There have been either 5 or 6 at each level over the past 20 years. So, 2/3 of the staff has left. She has driven off many of those she hired to replace those who left.
Some retired. Some driven away. At least one with a near nervous breakdown. She has been the a terrible morale killer. And she us only concerned about test scores. She supports some teachers who simply have no ability to show love to their students. It is terrible.
Can you imagine working: n a high functioning school and having continuous turnover of successful teachers? It is horrid to work there.
As long as this is the preferred “model” I want no part of it. I was in a unique situation in that I was tenured and not someone who could be driven away as quickly, although I wasn’t in any way underperforming. Still, she made life miserable. I couldn’t deal with the cognitive dissonance. It drove me away day by day. I left when I could afford to retire.
This is what is happening even in suburban rural districts. We even have a high number of kids on free lunch and with many needs. And we have been very successful with all children. Those with so many needs take up an inordinate amount of time. If we fall short itvis with the gifted kids, but we try to give them options that work well for them.
The push for the common core began in our district in 2007 and hasn’t let up. But we had to teach both CC and local curricula. We didn’t have a minute to breathe. Documentation became a nightmare. We held CSP meetings on students to identify emotional and academic needs. But it was/is exhausting.
And with all that … We got no respect. We were always feeling like we were walking on eggs. And we survived by using tunnel vision to ignore her as much as possible. Wages have been frozen there since 2007. There have been futile negotiations. And, best of all, we have been told to “be quiet, shut our mouths a,nd do our jobs” when anything arises that we have felt ws unfair. We were gently prodded to retire so they could hire willing young people for half the wages and hope and live in their eyes. What a sham it has all been.
I am simply sad for the turn of the profession. And not w our “governor” wants Ohio to be a “right to work” state and he continues to work against unions and to be all for privatization of toll roads, prisons, and schools. How is this good for anyone but the 1%? How?
The reasons for reactions to all these changes are as varied as the number of people posting. I don’t know that there are any real answers as to what is the solution.
It seems to me that if there was a real effort to improve education, then rather than limiting access to what is deemed as “best” we should be providing the “best” to ALL students. ANY school that “selects” is being discriminatory.
We keep dancing around the topic with people defending charters as if they are some panacea to our educational issues. Then we object to changes in the curriculum that only apply to some schools.
We need to get real. We need to stop private monies being used to assist some not all students. If these privatizers want to help then they need to put money into all schools and stop worrying about their profits. Otherwise it is a venture in greed.
Gates et all have strings to their philanthropy. That makes it self-serving and hypocritical. JMO.
And the opinion of many other well read, informed citizens, deb. Common Sense…not Common Core.
Uh, gitapik, you must not have read my previous posts. I am not an advocate for the infusion of Common Core into schools.
All I was trying to say is that public education is under attack from many fronts. I find that to be unproductive for ALL students. People often want what they think is best for only their own children. They often care for no one else.
Yes, remove a child from dangerous schools. But to act as if some communities of children don’t “deserve” as much as others is no way to improve education in the US. Sometimes I think the message is lost. The problem is in segregating. It is no different than tracking.
I don’t know where the confusion’s coming from, deb. I’m in complete agreement with you, as are many others as the facts finally begin to come out. I’m teaching 5 year olds with autism and am being told to align my lesson plans with the CCSS. It’s beyond absurd…it’s destructive. I want the CCSS out. At best, make them voluntary for anyone that wants to use them. But that’s not what Gates and the rest of the profit motivated philanthropists have in mind. It’s either you buy into the standards, associated tests, and (eventually for anyone who can connect the dots) curriculum or you don’t get the money.
Ok. I misinterpreted your response. Sorry. : )
I think that part of the reason that education policy discussions are so difficult is that there are competing goals for education, some of which are incompatible with each other.
Take the notion that we should treat students as unique individuals with very different goals and needs from education discussed by poster deb AND the goal that each student should attend a school based on the street address of their residence. The two seem to me to be incompatible with each other given any reasonable level of school funding.
Here is a concrete example. The mathematics curriculum at Thomas Jefferson High School in Fairfax County Virginia (a qualified admission public magnet school) includes, among other courses, BC Calculus, Multivariate Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations (this is the equivalent of the first two years of mathematics an engineering or science student takes at the university where I teach). Is there any plausible level of funding that would allow every traditional zoned high school to provide this mathematics curriculum to the very small number of students in the catchment area who benefit from this curriculum? I think the answer to this is no, and the reasonable compromise is to gather students together across catchment areas so that this type of curriculum might be taught at a reasonable cost. I think the same logic applies to students who would benefit from curriculums commonly taught in schools that students can choose to attend (Waldorf, Montessori, etc), but absent in traditional zoned schools.
In larger cities with options at the high school level for certain advanced coursework to be offered to students that might be able to attend different buildings or through online learning options makes sense. When transportation is a problem, it isn’t as feasible.
My perspective is from the elementary level. Little kids don’t need to be hauled away from their local schools for reasons that turn out to provide racially and culturally segregated opportunities.
In high school different options can and should be made.
I simply believe that, whatever occurs, no private gain should be made via the collusion of private corporations when it comes to educating our children. If they wish to plug in private money and claim to be philanthropists, then the money should be for all students everywhere, not for elite groups.
I certainly agree that density is an important issue, and think that one good way to address it is to make use of the resources available on the internet. I also agree that it is more important in the high school end of K-12 education than in the elementary end of K-12 education.
My larger point, however, is that giving each individual student the “best” education may REQUIRE schools to select students based on criteria other than the street address of their residence.
TE, The NYC school system has a large variation of schools that cater to individual needs, such as the gifted and talented programs at schools like the Anderson School, Brooklyn SI or STEM in Queens. These schools test kids at the K level and only accept the top 1% of students. This is clearly an example of a public school that is not meant for everyone. Oddly enough, the anti choice movement has no issue with this, because the schools are within the system they control, not outside of it. If a magnet or charter comes along and has anything close to the same requirements as these G&T programs they are all of a sudden private schools stealing money from the system.
Its not about the school, its about being in control of the system.
Au contraire. Most general educators have had some training in special education and understand that gifted children have special educational needs, so a lot of us support gifted programs in the school system.
This is where I think the area of study makes a huge difference. A gifted writer can write a story worthy of publication in the New Yorker to satisfy an assignment in a creative writing class. The gifted historian can get an A on a paper that offers the most complete analysis of the causes of old war one ever written. The math student, however, must solve the problem presented in the class, not the more difficult problem they are capable of solving. The gifted mathamatician can not pass the typical high school mathmatics class by exercising his or her gifts to the fullest extent when the gifted writer will no doubt get a very high mark as a result of writing better than anyone else in the school.
Interestingly enough our zoned schools are cutting G&T programs because they are not ‘diverse’ enough.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/30/nyc-school-cuts-popular-gifted-program-over-lack-d/
Because, as every progressive knows, melanin is far more important than any other factor in determining academic success.
Be the change. It’s time to stop the rhetoric and finger pointing and take action. http://savingstudents-caplee.blogspot.com/2014/01/a-call-to-action.html
civil posts are all I find here. I find people are very outspoken and honest about what is happening to the kids they teach and the schools they are in. It is not civil what is happening to them and they are not being treated in a civilized way. Bullied, bossed, slammed for doing a good job by people who have never taught. I ask the woman who is upset by the tone to try and teach for 1 month at any school of her choice, or volunteer, and she will understand why teachers are outspoken and frustrated. No one is speaking for them and the students they love so much, so they must speak out somewhere and tell the truth. If the truth bothers you then so be it. But the tone is and has been, as far as I can tell, very civil, educated and frankly patient considering what is happening to teachers across America.
Just wanted to bump up Frederick Douglass’ quote from KrazyTA’s comment :
“Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground.”
Christian D.: I will not be so presumptuous as to speak for others on this blog about which American traditions to honor, but I am partial to the abolitionists.
With all due respect to the owner of this blog, I sometimes feel the following by William Lloyd Garrison describes in part the spirit of this website:
“With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will surely be lost.”
And how could an eminent historian of education be so impractical as to think that a “better education for all” is possible when so many billionaires, powerful politicians and world-famous celebrities are determined to prove her wrong?
“Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.” [Harriet Tubman]
In the same vein but presented in a very different format, from the musical SOUTH PACIFIC, the following lines from “Happy Talk” by Rodgers and Hammerstein:
“You got to have a dream, if you don’t have a dream
How you gonna have a dream come true?”
When you’re in to win it, you can and will make the “dream” of a better education for all come true.
Of that, I have more than a 98% “satisfactory” [thank you, Bill Gates!] chance of being right.
😎
KTA,
I agree.
If we choose to feel defeat, we allow fear and helplessness to paralyze us. If we choose victory and unwavering tenacity, we stand well to save democracy.
FDR: “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.”
Yes, we will reason, we will plead, we will be serious, humorous, detailed, brief, or whatever works to try to communicate. That is the mission.
“Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground.”
Amen to that. A wise fellow, that Douglass. One who spoke from personal experience about these matters.
And how exactly should we feel and speak when the LA Times posts the scores of all the LAUSD teachers, and one of them commits suicide? How should we feel when the teachers at the school in Rhode Island are all fired without cause? How should we feel when high-tech egotists are filing lawsuits against teacher “tenure”, which is actually due process? How should we feel when governors require teachers in their state to pay more into their retirement, and then take that additional money and put it into the state’s general fund? How exactly should we feel when our class sizes are increased dramatically? How exactly should we feel when we are required to follow policies and teach curriculum that we had no input into? How should we feel when the school chancellor laughs when she’s firing someone in her district?
Outrage, mathc, PURE outrage.
You have every right to feel that outrage — and keep sharing those stories. Yes, many of us are “out of it,” it’s true. Like I said above, educate us. Those of us who have been out of the loop, we will be on your side — we will — but we need to hear your stories. I know it’s hard to believe that everyone doesn’t know them, but they don’t.
You’re right about that, Jennifer.
One does not know to get to an issue until they really know the internal mechanisms of it.
Thank you for your insight and support. Beautifully put!
Jennifer:
As you say, some are are new to this blog and new to the idea that education reform is killing our beloved public schools. I was there once myself. This blog is a wonderful place to learn more, as is Valerie Strauss’ blog at http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/ and Mercedes Schneider’s blog at http://deutsch29.wordpress.com/about/. Oh, and Anthony Cody’s articles at http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/.
Rhode Island Teachers: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/rhode-island-teachers-fir_n_475234.html
Teacher in LA:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7N_cSWgvAkwJ:www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php%3Faz%3Dview_all%26address%3D389x9210387+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Teacher “Tenure” Trial:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/teacher-tenure-goes-on-trial-in-los-angeles-courtroom/2014/01/26/b6574ed0-8545-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html
Teacher retirement funds:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-03-14/news/bs-md-union-rally-20110314_1_state-workers-budget-cuts-state-employee
Policies and Curriculum: See common core stories here or on Mercedes Schneider’s blog.
Jennifer:
Something else I do, when I have time, is to go to http://www.guidestar.org/ and look up the information about an education reform organization. (You’ll have to register on their site.)
Start with any of the bigger organizations. Look at their Form 990s to see where their funds come from and where they are spent. See who their Board of Directors are. Google the people on their Board of Directors and see where they work and what their backgrounds are. Check Guidestar for those directors that work at non-profits, and do the same thing with those non-profits. Follow the money as they say, and you start to see how interconnected a lot of these people are. Some are more in the center of it all than others.
I used a copy of Inspiration to create a connected map of organizations and people associated with them. It gets sickening after a while.
Math s, when Mercedes Schneider’s new book comes out, you will see all those connections.
That’s great Diane, what a great resource she is! That takes a lot of time and energy to figure all of that out.
This was a nice conversation, everybody. No, seriously, it’s really good to just make ourselves more comfortable sometimes…
… because we’re in a very desperate fight, against time, to save public education from some very ill-intentioned people, and we have to defeat them by strength, clarity, and determination. We’re doing our part. Here’s some good news, for instance:
http://www.nj.com/education/2014/01/senate_committee_passes_bill_giving_schools_boards_a_say_in_school_closings.html
There is some hope in this world. I had my fingers crossed. Thanks for the update on the bill.
“Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world…would do this, it would change the earth.”
William Faulkner
It is difficult to be polite when someone is holding a pillow over your face trying to smother you, or more specifically, smother our children.
Which poster on this blog do you believe is “holding a pillow over your face trying to smother you, or more specifically, smother our children.”?
I don’t think Mike is talking about this blog, te. He’s talking figuratively about the “reform” movement and it’s effect on teachers and students in the public school system.
Given that we are discussing civility, name calling, and ad homonym attacks, I thought that the poster was seeking to justify incivility here.
“Answering Back: SOS Report on IBO’s Comparison of Public Funding for Charter & Traditional Schools Doesn’t Make the Grade”
http://ibo.nyc.ny.us/cgi-park/?p=763
Anyone looking for a more balanced cite covering Charters please go here:
http://www.nyccharterschools.org/blog
MS, are you serious? Go to the paid advocates of privatization for a “balanced” view?
Diane, out of curiosity could you tell me your personal view of Eva Moskowitz?
Balanced…? Looks a little closer to propaganda to me… Maybe you mean “balanced” in the way FOX news means balanced…?
I would also suggest you watch this independent award winning documentary about the lottery process at Success Academy. Its a heart warming and heart breaking tale of families getting seats at SA as well as missing out.
http://www.thelotteryfilm.com/
Don’t listen to just one cheerleading parent whose child has been in a Success Academy charter school for less than a year. Read what other SA parents had to say in response to reports about high application numbers to SA and their experiences, in the comments section here: http://carrollgardens.patch.com/groups/schools/p/success-academy-charter-schools-tout-record-high-enrollment
We are in SACH, the above linked article has 2 alleged moms complianing. We can not be sure they are telling the turth, there is a tremendous amount of fake posting all over the internet by those attacking the school. You can find some other fake posts about SACH on insideschools.org too but they make the mistake of describing the school incorrectly and blowing their cover. The overwhelming bias is not only in blogs but the MSM which has whole heartedly sided with the anti-choice movement.
I dont deny that parents may pull their kids from SACH, it isnt for everyone, no one says its perfect. I can also tell you the MORE kids are being pulled from zoned schools citywide as the IBO recently found in its attrition rate study. So while cosmic thinker can cherrypick a few possible stories here and there, the overwhelming truth is kids are staying put at charters more then zoned schools.
Here is another little nugget of beauty showing how the union thugs operate:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/success-academy-spied-students-photographed-union-article-1.1327894
So the union’s job is to collectively hold hostage the city for more money AND spy on their competition!!!
From the article http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/success-academy-spied-students-photographed-union-article-1.1327894#commentpostform:
“The Success Academy charter school is in the midst of a nasty spat with the two district schools it shares a building with over renovations.
Teachers at the district school say the charter is getting preferential treatment from the city on repairs to the building.
City education officials denied those charges, but admitted that contractors working for the charter school did unauthorized work on the building in July.”
Shall we continue to deflect the unfairness of charter school funding by inviting debate based on rhetoric and propaganda in the news? What is your answer to the above statements, I mean, since we are all cherry-picking here, “pot?” Or is it, “kettle? I’m having trouble keeping it “strait.”
A poster commenting on the article says it best:
“It’s about fairness. All schools should contribute equally in a co-located campus and all should receive equal resources for the good of ALL students. It’s that simple!”
So, I ask again MS, do you as a citizen accept your responsibility for all the community’s children or just your own? You just keep ignoring this question–a question that is fundamental to the entire argument of whether or not charter schools are public schools. Still waiting for your answer.
LG,
I may be incorrect as I don’t know the details, but I believe MS has claimed that charter schools receive less public funding per student than traditional public schools. If true, would this inequality between the resources lead you advocate an increase in public funding for charter schools because all students should have equal resources for the good of ALL students?
It seems to me that what divides people on this topic as well as in politics is simple: self or all.
People either talk about their expectations for education for their children and what their demands happen to be OR they focus on the ways to deliver the best possible education to the most possible children.
Then all kinds of modifiers come out of the woodwork. There isn’t real agreement as to what IS best for our own children, let alone ALL kids.
One thing for sure is that some people will move heaven and earth to make sure that their own children have EVERYTHING better than everyone else’s children.
What makes anyone think that their own kids are more deserving than other people’s children?
If we ever address this, we might get on with how to prevent private ownership of public education.
If there is general agreement here, it is that there is not a single best for every student.
That is why I think it important that students not be assigned to a school by street address, but that students and their families be given the freedom to find what is best for their students even if they do not have the income that allows them to purchase a privately provided education.
So, a kid who lives in the woods of southeastern Ohio should be able to attend a school in Cincinnati if it is better. Would that satisfy the situation? There is no way to equalize education other than to assist schools that exist where they are to serve all students who live there.
If we want to treat each student as an individual, making schools equal is not the way achieve that end.
Take the example of Thomas Jefferson High School, a qualified admission magnet school in Fairfax County. There would be no reasonable level of funding that would allow every high school in the state of Virginia to offer the mathematics curriculum of TJ High School along with the more traditional level of mathematics at the local school. Equalizing education would thus require that no high school offer the TJ High School level of mathematics, harming the education of those students capable (and in some instances, longing) to do more advanced work.
According to IBO, “Charter Schools Housed in the City’s School Buildings Get More Public Funding per Student than Traditional Public Schools” http://ibo.nyc.ny.us/cgi-park/?p=272
I see from the table that funding for charter schools is estimated to be $649 more per student when located in a DOE building and $2,358 less per student when not located in a DOE building. Valuing the in kind services (listed as Facilities, Utilities, Safety, and the largest, Debt Service) is difficult, especially if there is space in a building that is only marginally used.
Be sure to watch the Inconvenient Truth video I posted below, too, folks, because a number of NY charter school parents speak out there as well.
CT, the IBO study has some serious flaws, for one it does not include over 4k per student that the zoned schools receive for pension liabilities. It also adds up the cost of rent and applies it to what charters receive in the form of a subsidy. Charters get 13.5k per kid, yet the IBO study adds back free rent to get them to 16k. In order to better understand the flaws in the IBO paper you should take time to read this review of the study pointing out the accounting irregularities the IBO uses:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/173211810/NYC-School-Funding-White-Paper-FINAL
Also here:
Click to access Charter%20Center%20Statement%20on%20Pension%20Report%20FINAL%2010%204.pdf
Now we can get to the next double standard perpetuated by the anti choice left. If rent is already calculated into what a charter is receiving as a cost from the state, how can you legitimately charge them rent on top of the subsidy? That would be double charging charters rent! If kaiser wilhelm forces them to pay rent, the state should up their funding by that amount to cover the cost.
MS failed to mention that in the attrition study, IBO found, “The one major exception is special education students, who leave charter schools at a much higher rate than either general education students in charter schools or special education students in traditional public schools. Only 20 percent of students classified as requiring special education services who started kindergarten in charter schools remained in the same school after three years.”
http://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/2014attritioncharterpublic.html
IBO’s reply, “Answering Back: SOS Report on IBO’s Comparison of Public Funding for Charter & Traditional Schools Doesn’t Make the Grade”
http://ibo.nyc.ny.us/cgi-park/?p=763
Waiting for Superman is also an important movie each of you should watch!
I think MS is a plant…. They (corporate reformers) do have enough money and enough poverty stricken people with educational debt to draw from… I believe what he’s doing is called “Gas lighting.” Just throwing our contrary arguments to incite angst… I wish you well MS, and I hope you get that debt paid off soon…
It certainly is becoming less about finding a solution and more about justification of charters and privatizing when he/she is posting.
Well the reference to “Waiting for Superman,” (AKA Waiting for Bill Gates) was the clue for me…
Ignore the slick propaganda and watch The Inconvenient Truth Behind Waiting for Superman:
So is A Triumph of the Will, MS…but it’s still propaganda.
Jennifer has contributed a refreshing insight to these comments. Schooling isn’t necessarily education, yet almost everyone here has a stake in formal classroom pedagogy, one way or another. I am a carpenter, not a schoolteacher (my wife taught Art), but I have been reading carefully here for months, and have learned a great deal. I think that you still have not really reached the masses, people who aren’t professional educators.
I would go a different direction Michaell… I think the masses need to reach us… We need to educate, and we do.
When I hear people say that you need to reach them, I always think of math… 2+2 equals 5 in exactly the same way it did before I understood it. Math didn’t change for me, I changed for it. What people are saying here (on this site) is true… True in the way global warming is true, but the people that we need to reach have been, and are continuing to adopt propaganda. Misinformation designed to undermine schools just long enough for corporations to run off with the money.
We need more people to raise their understanding, and see what is systematically being stolen right out from under them… and in some cases they are actually helping the thieves carry their stuff…
If the stakes are as high as they appear to be, and you’re waiting for the public to find you, it needs to happen really soon. How, exactly, do you see that happening?
Michael, it is happening in states and districts across the nation.
How can we really do any other… We can’t make carrots more palatable to the people that are eating the intellectual Twinkies of the corporate reformers. As Diane said (with my metaphorical adaptation) more people are starting to feel sick… More people are asking “What’s really going on here?” That’s when we tell them…
Maybe I’m naïve, but I really do believe (as the Buddha said) “There are three things you cannot hide, the sun, the moon, and the truth.”
Im a NYC parent of a kid at a school that changed our lives. If not for this school we would have moved out of the city we love because the alternative, the zoned school we spent K in was a disaster and an embarassment to public edcuation. Ive lived both sides of the coin, I did not want to go to the charter at first, I was forced into it, and the difference is demonstrative. That is how I ended up passionate about this issue and why I support SA on this forum. The overwhelming majority of what is said about our charter here is outright lies, it is my job to set the record strait.
MS, I am glad you are happy with SA. Enough is enough. Give your full name. You may be on Eva’s large PR and marketing staff.
MS, I do not wish to appear uncivil, but there is a point that is continually ignored in your commentary. Philosophy drives action. Do you deny that you have admitted on this blog that you have a lack of concern for other people’s children insomuch as admitting that you wanted your children away from “those other kids” in the public schools which was part and parcel of why you are a charter advocate? Yes or no?
We had this conversation before where you said as much, yet you continually ignore this point, especially when asked about it. You claim you are being attacked yet you refuse to answer because of this “claim.” In reality, you refuse to answer because you would have to contradict your earlier statements of disregard for other people’s children. Nobody wants to admit that.
The responsibility of all the community’s children is the community’s, and as a member of the community, it is also yours. Until this is acknowledged, your arguments claiming charter schools are public schools do not hold water. The crux of the charter debate centers around the concept of democracy–public funding for public schools. Magnet schools are still part of the public school system…they share resources. Charters have their hands in the public coffers yet share nothing. To say that charters are public is erroneous, outlandish and highly offensive to those who believe in democracy.
Diane you already have access to my full name.
You must have had a good experience with charters, I know other people who have as well. But, in the bigger picture, the reform movement and CCSS are going to do further damage to public schools. In too many cases, the state and local tax money that supports public schools is being co-opteded by private charter corporations using leverage provided by USDOE.
Michael, if not for our charter, we would have moved out of the city we love and been very unhappy in the suburbs. Our kids education is too important to us to rely on the zoned schools that have failed this city for generations. I love NYC and can now stay in my wonderful, vibrant, multicultural neighborhood specifically becuase of this school. Then you have people like Mrs Ravitch who want to shut down my world class school because it does not fit into her ideological framework. Sorry, but this really upsets me. Then to come on this forum and see so much unabashed lying and open hatred for the school makes me sick to my stomach. This school is changing peoples lives and giving kids a chance, for once! It should be rewarded, celebrated and expanded at every avenue possible. Eva should be on Oprah and 60 Minutes as a legitimate view of how things are going would show the country how great SA and charters like it really are. They are not ruining the system, they are saving it, one kid at a time.
dianeravitch: this is your blog. You do an admirable job of providing a forum for a very wide range of views in the ed debates.
I have noticed that a few people play an outsized role in buttressing your main points.
I refer in particular to the absolutely indispensable role played by the true believers of the charterite/privatizer program and their related High Holy Church of Testolatry.
They follow in a well worn rut. For example, the ex-Chancellor of DCPS, Michelle Rhee, in an online piece by someone who chronicled much of her career, John Merrow:
[start quote] That no one in her inner circle had any experience managing an urban school system did not seem to concern Rhee.
And if inexperience led her astray, Rhee believed that she had a fail-safe system that would steer her back on course, data-driven decision making. “We’re going to be doing parent satisfaction surveys, principal satisfaction surveys, teacher satisfaction surveys, so that we can gauge how good a job we are doing,” she said. There would be no management by hunches or anecdotal evidence–only numbers. “I am a data fiend,” she told me. “Measure everything. Don’t do anything you can’t measure.” [end quote]
Link: http://takingnote.learningmatters.tv/?p=6232
Again, from a John Merrow piece:
[start quote] She inflated her resumé to include an appearance on Good Morning America, which has no record of her being on the program. Her early resumé claims that she had been featured in the Wall Street Journal, but, again, we could find no record. She said (and still says) that she ‘founded’ The New Teacher Project, an assertion that is disputed by reliable sources familiar with Teach for America. A more likely story is that she was asked by its real founder, Wendy Kopp, to take it and run with it–and she did. [end quote]
Link: http://takingnote.learningmatters.tv/?p=6316
Ok, picky picky. But surely her own miracle of data-driven excellence—taking her students from the 13th percentile to the 90th during her short stint as a teacher—establishes beyond any reasonable doubt her education bona fides? I mean, the documentation and the numerous accolades and write-ups in the press and many awards she won—oh gosh, do they even exist?
[start quote]
JOHN MERROW: Rhee said her hard work paid off in greatly improved test scores.
MICHELLE RHEE: Over a two-year period, we moved a group of students who were on average performing at the 13th percentile, and when they left me at the end of two years, they were— 90 percent of them were scoring at the 90th percentile or above.
JOHN MERROW: That big a jump, 13 to 90 percent, is dramatic, but Rhee said those numbers came from her principal.
RICHARD WHITMIRE: I’m convinced that she made great progress with her kids, startling progress. But it’s doubtful that it was the astounding progress that the principal cited back to her. And we’ll never know one way or the other.
[end quote]
Link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education/education-of-michelle-rhee/transcript-35/
I won’t even belabor her cruelty making the mouths of her small students bleed with masking tape. Click on the link below for details:
Link: http://deutsch29.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/nctq-letter-grades-and-the-reformer-agenda-part-viii/
So please, Diane, as long as they don’t violate the “Rules of the Road” on this blog—
let them go on record with their fantastical claims and outrageous exaggerations and magic bullets and smug arrogance.
Quite unintentionally, they are some of the hardest workers for a “better education for all.”
I’m humbly beggin’ ya to keep letting them put themselves on record…
😎
I beg to differ, KrazyTA. I don’t think there needs to be one more place where the propaganda is permitted to be promoted, when the privatizers already own the mainstream media and their messages have dominated there for years.
With so many people who are confused by that, I think it’s important to address the false claims and spin. However, clearly, some of us have gotten very tired of refuting it all, so it’s often up to a few lone wolves to pick up the slack, but I have been noticing that many of the lies have been left standing and gone unchallenged with increasing frequency.