This NPR program contrasts the different paths of Finland and South Korea. Too bad it relies only on results of PISA tests. US students did much better on the latest TIMSS.
Frankly, I’m getting tired of the same old talk about international test scores.
We live in the world’s most economically successful nation, with the most advanced this, that, and the other. Why are we always looking for another nation to copy?
We do lead the world–that is, the most industrialized nations–in child poverty. Why not aim to be #1 in children’s health and well being?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Diane,
I could not agree more. We are obsessed with being first in the world, but with the wrong things. I argue this at greater length in the Washington Post article: The problem with our ‘first in the world’ education obsession: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/17/the-problem-with-our-first-in-the-world-obsession/
Arthur H. Camins
arthurcamins.com
Looks like North Korea to me …
You mean where the Rheeject is from???
No, A² I think …
I can understand disagreeing with Michele Rhee, but why the need to bring race and national origin into this discussion? It’s offensive.
Jay,
I jokingly state that the Rheephormer Queen is a plant by the North Korean Spy Agency to ruin American public education. When one-the Rheeject-puts themselves in the national spotlight as she has done she is fair game in my book. As far as I know she is an American of Korean descent, that’s no big deal. I don’t know if you realize that I am satirizing her. I don’t mean any slight any more than when I call the current president Obomber.
Education is the path to social/political control (short of some authoritarian martial law type system). To sell it to the people, a crisis needs to be manufactured. The best way to sell it is to avoid our failings (in comparison) like equity, social investment, mutual respect, empathy, generosity, acceptance…and narrow focus the outcomes. Deflect and neglect any of the previous items on the list of influences, focus only on results that favor your agenda and a scapegoat to pin them on. THEN come up with your own, trademarked, for sale and unproven way to fix your manufactured crisis…
The comparisons are only selective and convenient ones.
This is scary!
This Atlatic article makes many of your points.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/why-gloomy-pundits-and-politicians-are-wrong-about-americas-education-system/267278/
Why no urgency about poverty among the Michelle Rhees of the world? It is shocking that they think that crime and drug ridden neighborhoods have no effect on education..they do, and yet they care so little about children (other people’s that is) they discount the poverty. And gentrfication is NOT a solution- it just pushes poverty outwawrds. We need Americans making IPhones for 15 dollars an hour instead of poor Chinese workers for 1 dollar an hour. That might lessen poverty in the cities.
NPR – sponsored by the Bill and Melinda (now just Bill) Gates Foundation.
Did the NPR story by any chance mention the Stanford study of the cohort of US students taking the PISA test?
In the cohort of US students who took the PISA, there were many more disadvantaged students than are represented in our national population. This weighed down US scores. Other countries’ cohorts of students comprised a much smaller proportion of disadvantaged students. And those cohorts did not over-representative the true percentage of the countries’ disadvantaged children.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/january/test-scores-ranking-011513.html
Stanford Report, January 15, 2013
Poor ranking on international test misleading about U.S. student performance, Stanford researcher finds
A comprehensive analysis of international tests by Stanford and the Economic Policy Institute shows that U.S. schools aren’t being outpaced by international competition.
BY JONATHAN RABINOVITZ
Excerpt: Based on their analysis, the co-authors found that average U.S. scores in reading and math on the PISA are low partly because a disproportionately greater share of U.S. students comes from disadvantaged social class groups, whose performance is relatively low in every country.
As part of the study, Carnoy and Rothstein calculated how international rankings on the most recent PISA might change if the United States had a social class composition similar to that of top-ranking nations: U.S. rankings would rise to sixth from 14th in reading and to 13th from 25th in math. The gap between U.S. students and those from the highest-achieving countries would be cut in half in reading and by at least a third in math.
“You can’t compare nations’ test scores without looking at the social class characteristics of students who take the test in different countries,” said Carnoy. “Nations with more lower social class students will have lower overall scores, because these students don’t perform as well academically, even in good schools.
Those in power, local, state, and federal, all need someone to blame and fodder with which to blame.
And of course, we teachers are to blame!
Has anyone seen Olympus Has Fallen Test Scores yet?
In case you were wondering how the end would come …
Hey Diane, I agree with you that measuring ourselves against other countries using international test scores is an exercise in futility and ultimately gets us nowhere, but there are certain aspects of Finland’s educational system we would be wise to adapt and adopt. I’m sure you could agree with that.
Reflective Thinking, I agree with you in that there are certain aspects of Finland’s education that we need to adopt. Why would we reinvent the wheel when there is a system that works better than ours? Why are we competing with instead of collaborating with successful nations?
We have to remember that America, by it’s very nature, is very different than these other countries. The size of America, the different cultures, values, economic and social classes are just some of these differences. Other countries are more homogeneous. We also make a k – 12 public education for all students, (or at least we used to). What is the effect of these factors onthe much cited test scores?
are you coming to Connecticut any time soon?
Silvia,
When my new book comes out in September, I hope to get to Connecticut.
Diane
TIMSS and PISA are very different. TIMSS measures the taught curriculum. PISA measures the ability to transform knowledge, to APPLY the taught curriculum. I know which one I think is most important. We should be very worried that our kids do better on TIMSS than on PISA.
But I agree that we place too much emphasis on international test scores. We should dig a lot deeper into the wealth of information provided by PISA and get beyond our obsession with league tables.
We should follow neither Korea not Finland. We should forge our own path, but only after we looked closely at what countries such as these are doing right. Then we should APPLY that new knowledge to our own unique needs, strengths and weaknesses.
I think we suffer in the US with something I call the curse of riches. We have been blessed with such a lot of expertise in the past that we have not felt the need to look beyond our own shores to find answers to our problems – and often believe we have answers to the problems of the rest of world too.
But the USA is no longer the best or the free-est nation on earth. Our standards of public health and education are shamefully below where they should be and outclassed by several other countries. The citizens of many other countries have a greater sense of freedom and safety than we currently have. It is time we admitted our needs and looked beyond our own borders to seek answers. That doesn’t mean we simply adopt someone else’s solution. It means we look, we learn, we transform and we apply.
Once upon a time, IBM was #1, but it didn’t look over its shoulder to see Microsoft coming. Microsoft knew enough to look past its own Windows, but Apple came up anyway. Apple’s been looking at an app on its iPhone and it sees…Samsung. Just because you’re at the top doesn’t mean you shouldn’t worry, because there’s always someone gunning for you, and someday they may succeed.
Once upon a time, too, the US was at or near the top in children’s health, in average longevity, in manufacturing and in auto sales. But to sit on a high horse and not watch what’s happening elsewhere is folly, and look where it’s gotten us.
The US has the world’s highest per capita income, but the widest gap between rich and poor. So Occupy Wall Street’s got a point, and yes, poverty needs to be addressed, as well.
The U.S. is living on its residual wealth, frankly, from a time of when we had the most educated society on earth.
That is the only reason “we live in the world’s most economically successful nation”, albeit with GDP growth at about 1.5 % a year, 7.7 unemployment, and the lowest pop/employment ration in 30 years.
Compare how long it took it us to build the Bay Bridge in 1930 versus the current nightmare (decade +).
“A comprehensive analysis of international tests by Stanford and the Economic Policy Institute shows that U.S. schools aren’t being outpaced by international competition.”
They just showed that if the U.S. had fewer marginalized students, it would test better. But, the U.S. does have a lot of marginalized students. (Who nevertheless have a higher per cap GDP than a student in Shanghai.)
Just denying there is a problem really doesn’t make it go away.
First, the study showed that in the group, more than 40% of students were disadvantaged. Yet in the US overall, 23% of students are disadvantaged. Why would the group taking the PISA have nearly double the percentage of disadvantaged students found in the US?
Did that skew the test scores?
Does it mean the claim that US schools are failing is overblown?
What would a researcher reasonably expect PISA scores to look like if he organized the group to be more representative of US students overall?
Well, the Stanford study says it means the US reading scores and math scores would jump. This could lead policy-makers to look to concerns with poverty, access and opportunity and not to schools alone.
Second, and already well-known, the shredding of our safety nets means that, at 23%, the US has a much higher percentage of disadvantaged children than the countries we compete who are ahead in the rankings. Finland has 4% disadvantaged students, as a result of its social policies and other factors difficult to replicate here.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2013/03/18-timss-pirls-scores-loveless
FYI — The improved TIMSS scores for the US, broken down by state and the Finnish miracle looks different this time.
Have you heard anyone from the reform crowd talking about TIMSS lately?