Bruce Baker looks closely at the latest Mathematica Policy Research study of KIPP and draws some useful lessons.
Mathematica says KIPP is more successful than the nearby public schools.
Why?
Baker shows that KIPP spends substantially more (in some districts, $5,000 more per student), has smaller class sizes, higher salaries, “coupled with a dose of old-fashioned sit-down-and-shut up classroom/behavior management and a truckload of standardized testing. Nothin’ too sexy there. Nothin’ that reformy. Nothin’ particularly creative.”
Matt Di Carlo estimates that it would cost the New York City Department of Education an additional $688 million to get the same results in middle schools, and only $72 million in Houston.
Di Carlo has been saying for a long time that it is not “charterness” that is so special, but what charters do that produce higher scores: spend more money, reduce class size, pay more to teachers, etc.
That is, if parents want their children to be in a no-excuses school with strict disciplinary rules and “a truckload of standardized testing.”
Diane Ravitch's blog 
My extended look at the Mathematica KIPP report and how it has been portrayed:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/03/1190999/–Disaster-Capitalism-Kids-in-Prison-Program-Justified
Given that attending a KIPP school is a choice, it would appear that some parents do want that style of education for their children.
True, but it can hardly be a model for American education. Do you ever wonder why so many foundations and philanthropists are pouring hundreds of millions into KIPP?
Why not? I take you to mean that it’s too expensive?
I don’t think there should be “a” model for American education. I think there should be a variety of models and the freedom for all students to choose the one that works best for them.
Bingo! I have two kids, one who is very strong willed, slightly immature, who needs a constant strong hand at all times to keep him focus, the Kipp “in your face” focus will fit his style of learning as they will not give in to his charms. My other child is mellow, extremely bright, and very sensitive, Kipp would not be a school of choice for him.
Cupofjoe, please enroll your “strong willed, slightly immature” child in KIPP, and let us know how it goes.
A model for US education should have a vision that exceeds mere obedience and test taking. Choices for parents and children should be about choices for diversity in curriculum, programming, and class sizes. Those are the key curricular features that parents choose when they look at elite private schools or public magnate schools. KIPP and corporate charters, while advertising themselves as education models and “choice” are offering nothing innovative and no choice. Parents are told it’s KIPP’s way or the highway. In fact, KIPP is perpetuating an 18th century model of segregated schools and rote learning- the lowest level of learning on Bloom’s taxonomy.
I’ve suggested in past comments you MUST read Richard Hofstadter’s “Anti-intellectualism in American Life” (1964). (please read it!) Corporate schools such as KIPP are a symptom of this anti-intellectual milieu and perpetuate a flawed vision for education.
TE, if you live in a town that has 10,000 residents and one school, do you think it is a good idea to send the kids to church schools with public money? Not only would it fracture the community and destroy the public school, it would bring us back to where our society was in 1825, before there were public schools. That should please you. But apparently it would not please the public, because no state referendum has ever supported vouchers.
Clearly economies of scale play a huge role in education. What is possible in LAUSD is not possible or advisable in a rural unified county school district with a single high school that enrolls less than one hundred students. I am not sure why you would require the districts to have the same policies or structures.
cupofjoe – why do you want to destroy your child’s strong will? Why not teach him to channel it and use it in healthy ways towards positive ends?
Dollars to dog biscuits, cupofjoe has no intention of ever sending a child to a KIPP school.
If I am wrong, please tell us which KIPP you have your kid in and how it is going for him/ her.
I am not trying to destroy his strong will, I am re-directing it into something positive. He can’t do it by himself, that’s what parents are there to do – and that’s what we do. It will be nice to have a school who mirrors what we do at home. I don’t condone screaming and hollering at kids, however some kids come from an environment where this is what they know. So being all sweet, nice, and proper does not get through to them. Some kids need to be scared straight, they need that ‘in your face’ approach, otherwise you will loose them to their environment and have to revisit them in the penal system..You have to get through to kids before you can teach them, or at least stay on them enough to be taught, if KIPP does this I have no problem with it.
There are no KIPP schools in my immediate area, so you are right, I will not be sending my child to a KIPP. However, for those parents who choose this option and style of learning, I am glad it is available. Every child is different, and I know what MY child needs, a strong hand directed him at all times. He will exhaust the average teacher to a point they will give up on him and let him fail because of his poor decisions. And so many kid are like this, they make poor decisions that will affect the rest of their lives and some teachers try but they are not going to go all the way out for your kids, especially when they see your child as a “problem’ child, they give up. I don’t blame them, but it hurts the child when there parents are not there to support them. Fortunately my child has two very supportive parents, who are constantly engaged in his academics, so he will be successful one way or other. Many kids, especially where the KIPP schools are located, are not as fortunate.
What happens to those students who enroll in the KIPP program and don’t “sit down and shut up”?
The estimates are mine, not Matt’s. But I believe we’re on the same page with this one!
Frankly I can’t make heads or tails out of the data tables in Baker’s report. This is partly because I’m stupid. But it’s also because I don’t see (maybe I’m missing it?) what kind of expense data’s being compared between publics and charters. There’s talk of salary differentials, but that’s just one part of labor costs. Are employee healthcare costs considered? (I have a strong hunch that KIPP’s are lower.) Are retirement benefit costs considered on both sides? (Again, a strong hunch that KIPP’s are lower in NYC, and a stronger hunch that KIPP’s retirement benefit costs are WAY lower in places like Houston and New Orleans.)
If these expenses weren’t included in this report, then I expect that accounting for them would narrow the money gap. If that were true, then the cost of replicating the KIPP model in NYC district middle schools — and frankly I’m only interested in the class size part of it — would be higher, maybe a lot higher, than the $690 million cited.
On the other hand, if the comparisons include these expenses and are fair and accurate, then my immediate reaction is that $690 million is pretty damn cheap. Absolutely doable, if we wanted to do it, either on the revenue side (do voters want substantially smaller classes enough to pay for them?) or the expense side (do teachers want substantially smaller classes enough to agree to contribute toward their health insurance?). Note that John Liu thinks it’s a winner to propose spending an extra $200 million a year on guidance counselors. (Which I’m sure would be wonderful, other things equal.)
Note that I’m assuming that one of the points of replicating the KIPP model would be to replicate its class sizes, which I recall reading are around 15 students per class.
Fierper, I don’t know of any KIPP schools for middle-class or mostly white children. It seems to be a no-excuses model for poor black and Hispanic kids. Middle-class black and white families seem to want a less militaristic school for their children. Some even prefer a school where children get to make mistakes without getting punished immediately, or even progressive schools, where learning is not scripted.
I was thinking solely of the class size issue.
Also, I want to do two things. First, I want to apologize for occasionally sniping at you in comments. I don’t always agree with you, but there’s no need to be a jerk. Anyway, you’ve made me want to be a better Internet citizen. Second, I want to thank you for creating this blog out of nothing and taking the time to engage with your readers.
While I’m making amends, if anyone sees Michael Fiorillo around here, tell him I’m sorry for being such an ass to him over at GothamSchools. Don’t make too big a deal of it, because I’ll probably do it again (it’s like a chemical reaction, and if I learned one thing in science class, it’s that you can’t argue with science). But he’s got the stones to use his real name, unlike me, and I suspect that if I had him for a teacher, he’d be one of the ones I never forgot.
Crap, I forgot, I also wrote something pretty mean to Harlan the other day. I never should have gone down this road.
I actually find you kind of funny sometimes, but I also think you are rude to Diane at times. I agree…Mike F. has to be an outstanding teacher. I lost it with HU, too and I was sorry. We have something in common. :):):)
Fierper, thanks for wanting to be a better Internet citizen. Many people who post pseudonymously use their mask to be very nasty. I have to accept anonymity from others so that educators can speak freely. Some believe they would be fired if they used their name. You have been occasionally rude but never crossed the line to insulting, so apology accepted. I don’t care if people agree with me or with one another all the time. It would be boring if we did. We need the frisson of discussion to stay engaged.
I guess it makes sense then why families would want to send their kids to KIPP schools. While those may not be novel or replicable changes, they nevertheless seem to benefit kids.
Only if test scores are your only measure of “benefit”.
KIPP benefits kids who were already doing fine.
Others get the boot.
Or not let in to start with.
Or never even try to get in.
The Econometrica study did try to control for selection before the lottery. If only kids that were “already doing fine” made it through the pre-lottery screens, the study compared kids that were “already doing fine” in KIPP schools to kids who were “already doing fine” who were not in KIPP schools.
The study said the schools did not seem to benefit kids’ behavoirs. Did the KIPP study mention the size of the graduating class? Or the sex ratio. Previous studies have suggested that boys disproportionately fail to graduate from KIPP schools and that there was severe attrition between 6th grade and the end of high school.